First-time builder dilemma: RV-3 or RV-8?

[TS Flightlines]

Sebastain-----I'm probably the least qualified of all the VAF members to answer your questions, but I think the RV8 checks off all of your boxes. Alot of guys fly their 8's solo, with the advantage of extra payload on the rear seat if necessary. I havent flown a 3, but have done some backset time in a 4 that was fabulous.
Paul and Louise fly their 3 cross county alot, and can give you realistic data, and well as their 8. I dont know of anyone else that owns BOTH planes, and can give you realtime data.
Economy 'might' be alittle better with a IO320 vs the IO360, but if you are fly cross country, I'd think the extra fuel capacity of the 8 would come into play. Again, Paul and Louise can help there.

Tom

[sdh]

Originally Posted by Saville

I briefly looked at the -3 when I started to decide what airplane to buy. It was attractive. But the weights just didn't work out for me.

Same thing happened with an RV-4.

So I ended up with an RV-8 and am very glad I did.

Yes, I looked in a similar way at the numbers. Also I think that 750lbs for an electric RV-3 seems optimistic; Randy Lervold's site mentions 820+lbs and increased MTOW to 1300lbs.

For the RV-4, the manufacturer's data would give me a conservative 500lbs of usable load which should enable full tanks, oxygen bottle for mountain flying, and trip baggage. But it's close to the limit as well.

[sdh]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

Sebastian,

As your bio says, the cart is before the horse. You are dreaming and living in the future. It is not reality.

Perhaps focusing on today would be a better beginning.

Get serious about learning to fly, don't sweat the type of airplane, have at it to make sure "flying for real" as opposed to dreaming about it is your cup of tea. Chances are it is but investing in an RV before that comes to pass could screw it up.

What's the point of having an airplane you can't fly. A lot of money invested, no money for flight instruction, and the dreaming continues. That's where you are headed.

David, thanks for the advice. I pondered these issues for some time now and from my point of view (but please interject if I'm just building castles in the sky) getting my PPL now would mean spending 10k without being able to make much use of it as the aeroclubs in my vicinity make it difficult to stay current and enjoy a bit of flying due to the rental conditions.

Starting the whole endeavour from the other end (building the plane first) would mean that with my budgeted amount as upfront cost, even adding the licence in a late stage of building would not add much more than 10%-15% of the plane budget. And if nothing goes terribly pear-shaped, I end up with a flying plane, my licence in hand, and no flying restrictions apart from the weather.

[Ironflight]

There is no doubt that both the -8 and the -3 are great airplanes, and I applaud you for thinking about diving in. But I did see you mention "budget" in one post.....which makes me think that the first thing you should do is to go and learn to fly, figure out how much you like it - and how much you spend doing that. And then when it comes to budgeting an RV, multiply the estimates by 1.5 just to give yourself some margin.

Yes, we have both airplanes, and they are both incredible machines. The -8 does everything well, and carries a lot a long way at good speed. It flies nice aerobatics - but once you have flown a -3, you realize that the -8 is just not as much fun.

The -3 probably provides the best all-around experince I have had in an airplane, and that is after 40+ years of flying in a huge variety of planes. It's my favorite, by far. I can hop in here in Nevada, fly three legs for a total of about 1500 miles, and be in Oshkosh in time for happy hour. Then I can fly aerobatics for as long as I want when I get there (well, before happy hour activities, of course....). But....we do pack carefully, and light. After years of experience, I can throw everything I need for a five day business trip in my backpack - and buy anything extra I need when I get there. 750 lbs is pretty optimistic for a traveling -3, especially if you need O2.

Finally, remember that the -3 is a single seat airplane. You will have to be confident enough in yor flying abilities that you have no qualms or questions about getting in it solo for your very first flight in the machine. That is a daunting prospect for many. So I circle back to "go learn to fly, then choose an RV" - you'll learn a lot about airplanes - and yourself - in the process.

[ppilotmike]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

The -3 probably provides the best all-around experince I have had in an airplane, and that is after 40+ years of flying in a huge variety of planes. It's my favorite, by far.

This is PRECISELY why I covet the RV-3B so much, and why I plan to finish mine after the family truckster (RV-10) is completed. I have not only heard this sentiment from Paul Dye before, but also everyone else I have met who has ever flown the 3. I have some stick time in an RV-10, RV-7A and an RV-4. So far, the 4 is the most fun yet, and I've been told repeatedly that the 3 is even better than that! Vans himself told me it's the best of the bunch for pure flying enjoyment.

I agree with others that say, fly first and make sure you love it. However, once you've gotten beyond that, build or buy the plane YOU want. It might even be a certified bird, once you start vetting which plane meets your mission, although there certainly is a lot to like about experimentals. For me, the build has been part of the journey, and I don't regret it (most days).

[Saville]

Originally Posted by sdh

For the RV-4, the manufacturer's data would give me a conservative 500lbs of usable load which should enable full tanks, oxygen bottle for mountain flying, and trip baggage. But it's close to the limit as well.

If you start with a 1000 empty weight airplane full tanks and a 200 lb pilot you get 108 lbs left over. 30 lbs baggage and that's 78.

If you go CS prop it'll be a little less than 78.

And all your XC will have to be solo unless you bring a very small person with you.

1000 empty weight is achievable but you have to build carefully.

Plus the build time for an RV-4 vs an RV-8 QB may be longer.

[David Paule]

Lots of very good advice so far.

My own experience is indeed, that it's relatively easier to get people to go out for a day on the sailboat rather than my airplane, but on the other hand it's lots easier to get people to go on a trip in the plane. Also that the right number of seats to have in your only airplane is at least one more than the number of people in your immediate family. Two more is even better.

Many years ago I attempted to build an airplane while learning to fly. It was a great learning experience and the main thing I learned was - don't do that again. First learn to fly. Buy something available that you can afford and get a few years with it, and I can't emphasize enough how important this is. Then if you want a project, sure, go ahead and build a plane.

I'm building a slow-build RV-3B and have to say that it's time-consuming. You can read about it in my blog in the "Your RV Build" section. I do have a remarkably good multi-seat airplane which I can fly now and which I've used to take people on long trips. There's no way I'd be building a singe-seat plane if I didn't have that capability.

Dave
RV-3B, wings under construction
Cessna 180, flying

[tmbg]

For a first-time builder and first-time pilot, an 8 is a better choice. It's very difficult to build a bad RV7/8/9. It's remarkably easy to build a bad 3/4/6 if you don't have a fair amount of experience building airplanes.

Buying a 3 or a 4 isn't a terrible option if you can find one. In the US at least, they're relatively affordable. By all accounts the 3 is the better airplane for pure unadulterated aviation joy, but then you won't be able to do any transition training in your own airplane.

[sdh]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

There is no doubt that both the -8 and the -3 are great airplanes, and I applaud you for thinking about diving in. But I did see you mention "budget" in one post.....which makes me think that the first thing you should do is to go and learn to fly, figure out how much you like it - and how much you spend doing that. And then when it comes to budgeting an RV, multiply the estimates by 1.5 just to give yourself some margin.

Paul, many thanks for providing your input! Regarding budget I might have been misunderstood; I did not mean it in the sense that I have to see what I might make available each month/year for flying, I meant that I have an amount planned which could be used upfront.

Planning a safety margin for expenses is similar to boating, I assume. The first time I fixed some minor issues on a boat I was flabbergasted about the perceived "marine markup". Similar specialty markets.

Originally Posted by Ironflight

Yes, we have both airplanes, and they are both incredible machines. The -8 does everything well, and carries a lot a long way at good speed. It flies nice aerobatics - but once you have flown a -3, you realize that the -8 is just not as much fun.

The -3 probably provides the best all-around experince I have had in an airplane, and that is after 40+ years of flying in a huge variety of planes. It's my favorite, by far. I can hop in here in Nevada, fly three legs for a total of about 1500 miles, and be in Oshkosh in time for happy hour. Then I can fly aerobatics for as long as I want when I get there (well, before happy hour activities, of course....). But....we do pack carefully, and light. After years of experience, I can throw everything I need for a five day business trip in my backpack - and buy anything extra I need when I get there. 750 lbs is pretty optimistic for a traveling -3, especially if you need O2.

I take it that - leaving the issue of jumping into the building process as such without some flying time under my belt aside for this discussion item - the -8 would give me everything from my list, but will be topped handling-wise by the -3. But, the -8 leaves a more generous margin for packing sins, and if ordered as QB might be a bit less daunting as first-time undertaking.

Originally Posted by Ironflight

Finally, remember that the -3 is a single seat airplane. You will have to be confident enough in yor flying abilities that you have no qualms or questions about getting in it solo for your very first flight in the machine. That is a daunting prospect for many. So I circle back to "go learn to fly, then choose an RV" - you'll learn a lot about airplanes - and yourself - in the process.

I might have a thick skull, nonetheless the admonitions to get practice before diving in do get through!

[KatieB]

I would go with an -8 for a first project if I could afford one, because it will be much easier to build, and more versatile with the back seat.

I am a first-time builder rebuilding an RV-3B, but I learned the basics of riveting and metalwork while working on pre-punched kits belonging to friends. (RV-10, RV-8, RV-12) The pre-punched kits go together much, much faster. Building a -3 is a good idea only if you really LOVE the process of crafting an airplane and are not that desperate to FLY soon. If you go with an -8, it's a two-place so you can learn to fly in it. (If your laws allow over there) There are several builders here on VAF who don't have a license yet but are building their own airplane with the intent of getting their license in it. Maybe they will chime in here.