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View Poll Results: Overhead Break - Good or Bad ?
Good 185 59.49%
Bad 126 40.51%
Voters: 311. You may not vote on this poll

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  #221  
Old 11-07-2015, 11:29 AM
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rolivi rolivi is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luddite42 View Post
Well around here they'll say, "practice ILS approach runway XX". Never known anyone to misunderstand their intentions, unlike the guys who broadcast formation lingo.
Gotta say that going in to a Non-towered airport on a published approach I call something like "5mi north, straight-in on the GPS-18"

Calling out the waypoints of the GPS-18 means nothing to the VFR guys, but straight in, a runway, and distance is something they can process.

As an aside... are there many non-towered airports WITH ILS approaches?
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  #222  
Old 11-07-2015, 11:41 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Fantastic post Bob.... it should be required reading for all pilots.

I agree that miss-understood communications causes the large majority of conflicts in the pattern. It is sad that in reality this goes far beyond normal and formation traffic mix it up.

How often has anyone else heard someone report they are directly over a point that you yourself are directly over? That causes some panic for a few seconds until you see that the other traffic is a couple of miles away.
When you say you are over a landmark, you should be over it.... not looking at it just over your nose, or out to the side. In those cases you would be 2 miles south of, etc.
I digress....
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  #223  
Old 11-07-2015, 12:15 PM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabarr View Post
Like you say, the procedure is in the AIM. It's a recognized and safe procedure. The terminology is also in the AIM. If your locals don't want to read or learn the material then that's on them. Don't try to fault the informed pilots. As they say "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Not disputing its safety. I take issue with the phraseology, which is not taught and extremely few know and come into contact with. That is the reality. You can talk about pilot ignorance all you want, it won't change the likelihood of communication (with understanding) taking place if you choose to keep saying things like "initial" and "break". I'm not at all against overheads, BTW. And how much do you know about microwave landing systems? It's in the AIM. There was some good discussion on this topic here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=103738
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  #224  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:22 PM
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smokyray smokyray is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luddite42 View Post
Not disputing its safety. I take issue with the phraseology, which is not taught and extremely few know and come into contact with. That is the reality. You can talk about pilot ignorance all you want, it won't change the likelihood of communication (with understanding) taking place if you choose to keep saying things like "initial" and "break". I'm not at all against overheads, BTW. And how much do you know about microwave landing systems? It's in the AIM.
Well said.
Here is the description in the FAR/AIM of "The Overhead Maneuver".

Overhead Approach Maneuver

5-4-27. Overhead Approach Maneuver

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-30.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved. Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver. Cancellation of the IFR flight plan must be accomplished after crossing the landing threshold on the initial portion of the maneuver or after landing. Controllers may authorize an overhead maneuver and issue the following to arriving aircraft:

1. Pattern altitude and direction of traffic. This information may be omitted if either is standard.

PHRASEOLOGY-
PATTERN ALTITUDE (altitude). RIGHT TURNS.

2. Request for a report on initial approach.

PHRASEOLOGY-
REPORT INITIAL.

3. “Break” information and a request for the pilot to report. The “Break Point” will be specified if nonstandard. Pilots may be requested to report “break” if required for traffic or other reasons.

PHRASEOLOGY-
BREAK AT (specified point).
REPORT BREAK.
FIG 5-4-30
Overhead Maneuver

OVERHEAD MANEUVER− A series of pre-deter-

mined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in

formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR)

traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An

overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules

(IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an

overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR

flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the

“initial point” on the initial approach portion of the

maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the

following:

a. The radio contact required of the pilot.

b. The speed to be maintained.

c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.

d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180
degree turns.

e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn
is started.

f. The direction of turns.

g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the convention-
al pattern).

h. A “Roll-out” on final approach not less than 1/4
mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300
feet above the ground.


https://books.google.com/books?id=kt...neuver&f=false

Communication is crucial.
As RV "Bob" mentioned, it is the flight lead responsibility to execute and communicate clearly, concisely and efficiently.

Overhead patterns aren't dangerous, it's poor execution that makes it so...

V/R
Smokey

Last edited by smokyray : 11-07-2015 at 01:28 PM.
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  #225  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:35 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
<snip>
I agree that miss-understood communications causes the large majority of conflicts in the pattern. It is sad that in reality this goes far beyond normal and formation traffic mix it up.
Concur Scott, and thanks much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by luddite42 View Post
<snip>
Not disputing its safety. I take issue with the phraseology, which is not taught and extremely few know and come into contact with. That is the reality. You can talk about pilot ignorance all you want, it won't change the likelihood of communication (with understanding) taking place if you choose to keep saying things like "initial" and "break". I'm not at all against overheads, BTW. And how much do you know about microwave landing systems? It's in the AIM. There was some good discussion on this topic here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=103738
Common themes: communications and procedures. Rick, I looked at the other thread, and it's very similar to this one. I know from reading, you have a real dislike for the terms initial and break. I think I've offered a bit of phraseology that uses the terms correctly and is clear as to the position of the aircraft. One possible solution.

What I'm espousing here is a move to the middle of the road. If the formation community works to fly standard procedures, use standard terminology, in a way that makes their position and intent clear to other pilots, all in a courteous manner, then I don't feel it's unfair to ask that non-formation pilots take a little time to become aware of the procedures and terminology. I'm not saying the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many...but work with me (us) here...a little Luv in both directions, eh!?!

A little more on this year's Reno FAST/PRS story, and how this can work in a positive way. I invited several local pilots to ride with some of our flight leads during FAST (not allowed during PRS ). Two were flight instructors, who were among those that voiced the strongest complaints about formation and overheads (one of whom was the guy that did the intersection takeoff with the flight on final the year before). Both were too busy instructing during the FAST period to do ride-alongs (good business for them!), but I spent time with each discussing our SOPs, we coordinated working areas and timing with them, and both groups did what they said they were going to do. At the end of the week, both of them came up and enthusiastically said it was the best integration of high density ops they had ever seen...and our airport manager was very, very happy!

This stuff can work, if we work together!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #226  
Old 11-07-2015, 04:20 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
<snip>
I agree that miss-understood communications causes the large majority of conflicts in the pattern. It is sad that in reality this goes far beyond normal and formation traffic mix it up.
Concur Scott, and thanks much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by luddite42 View Post
<snip>
Not disputing its safety. I take issue with the phraseology, which is not taught and extremely few know and come into contact with. That is the reality. You can talk about pilot ignorance all you want, it won't change the likelihood of communication (with understanding) taking place if you choose to keep saying things like "initial" and "break". I'm not at all against overheads, BTW. And how much do you know about microwave landing systems? It's in the AIM. There was some good discussion on this topic here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=103738
Common themes: communications and procedures. Rick, I looked at the other thread, and it's very similar to this one. I know from reading, you have a real dislike for the terms initial and break. I think I've offered a bit of phraseology that uses the terms correctly and is clear as to the position of the aircraft. One possible solution.

What I'm espousing here is a move to the middle of the road. If the formation community works to fly standard procedures, use standard terminology, in a way that makes their position and intent clear to other pilots, all in a courteous manner, then I don't feel it's unfair to ask that non-formation pilots take a little time to become aware of the procedures and terminology. I'm not saying the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many...but work with me (us) here...a little Luv in both directions, eh!?!

A little more on this year's Reno FAST/PRS story, and how this can work in a positive way. I invited several local pilots to ride with some of our flight leads during FAST (not allowed during PRS ). Two were flight instructors, who were among those that voiced the strongest complaints about formation and overheads (one of whom was the guy that did the intersection takeoff with the flight on final the year before). Both were too busy instructing during the FAST period to do ride-alongs (good business for them!), but I spent time with each discussing our SOPs, we coordinated working areas and timing with them, and both groups did what they said they were going to do. At the end of the week, both of them came up and enthusiastically said it was the best integration of high density ops they had ever seen...and our airport manager was very, very happy!

This stuff can work, if we work together!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #227  
Old 11-07-2015, 04:35 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvmills View Post

What I'm espousing here is a move to the middle of the road. If the formation community works to fly standard procedures, use standard terminology, in a way that makes their position and intent clear to other pilots, all in a courteous manner, then I don't feel it's unfair to ask that non-formation pilots take a little time to become aware of the procedures and terminology. I'm not saying the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many...but work with me (us) here...a little Luv in both directions, eh!?!
With total respect Bob - here's the problem with that approach. Let's say that EVERYONE on VAF agrees to the terminology, understands it, and plays by that new paradigm. That still only touches a small proportion of the overall pilot community within the United States (alone). How do you get the word to EVERY pilot with a certificate? The FAA would have to issue an AC, and then make sure that everyone got it. Frankly, in order for this to work, you would have to require new training for every pilot. If you start now....you might get everyone up to speed in a generation. And....if you can't even get the entire RV community to agree, what are the chances that you'll get buy-in from every pilot - especially the ones that already think that the homebuilt community is a bunch of outlaws driving hot rods?

So I have said this before, but I'll say it again. The ex military guys are absolutely correct when they say that the overhead break is the most efficient way to land a group of airplanes. BUT - and here is the big caveat - that works in the military because it is SAFE if the formation OWNS the airspace, which it does when the airport is under positive control by a tower - which it pretty much always is in military operations. That makes it safe - positive control of all other traffic, and the formation owns the airspace.

In an uncontrolled environment, you can't assure that you own the airspace, so it will always be a notch less safe (no matter that it is more efficient) than everyone flying the same pattern , and the only pattern that EVERY pilot has been taught is the "standard pattern" - as boring (and inefficient) as it is.

I already know that I won't change the minds of those who have them made up - but I ask everyone to THINK, not just take a position that has been espoused by others. Again - the reason it is safer in military ops is because the tower controls the airspace for the formation. We don't have that same advantage at an uncontrolled field.

Paul
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Last edited by Ironflight : 11-07-2015 at 04:37 PM.
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  #228  
Old 11-07-2015, 05:58 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Also, there's a whole bunch of pilots flying around out there in aircraft of vastly different speeds. Many of them don't have radios or transponders or lights, and the usual proportion will be people with minimal experience. Another batch of pilots might have gobs of experience and haven't learned a thing in the last three decades.

That's just the way it is.

Keep your eyes wide open.

Dave
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  #229  
Old 11-07-2015, 06:03 PM
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I wonder which primer the overheaders used?
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  #230  
Old 11-07-2015, 06:12 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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With all due respect Paul, even the standard 45 to downwind is a crapshoot. It may be the one "everyone knows", but it is seldom "standard". People have a huge disparity between where along downwind the 45 actually intercepts, how tight downwind is in relation to the runway ("halfway up the strut on a 172" is hardly a standard), and of course where to turn base (the classic "bomber" pattern, anyone). If you have 5 airplanes in the pattern, there is a good chance someone is going to be flying downwind with another airplane 200 feet off your wing because he thinks "he's" on downwind instead of you, and who knows where on the surface of the planet the guy inbound on the 45 is going to show up... Then add a guy in closed traffic doing touch and go's, a guy doing a midfield crosswind entry, and then just for fun, the NORDO Cub doing a straight in to the opposite runway.

So, yes I think everyone agrees that dragging a flight down initial and dumping them into the downwind of a packed pattern is asking for trouble. But I'm not seeing how an OB is any worse than the standard pattern if conditions are appropriate. Both can be a walk in the park if the pattern is empty, and both can be a major "Charlie Foxtrot" when you add a few airplanes into the mix.
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