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10-29-2015, 06:03 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,004
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Dan H., thanks for the chart. I haven't see it before but I can tell that I was always striving for the 10 category and may have accepted a 9 if that was the best I could achieve after several attempts to reach 10. Unfortunately that is why it took 6 years to get the project in the air but I would do it the same if I did it over again.
__________________
Paul K
West Michigan
Unfortunately in science, what you believe is irrelevant.
2020 donation made, exempt but worth every dime!
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10-29-2015, 07:09 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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That'l rub right out. 
If unsure, have an experienced builder look at it.
Your airplane. Your judgement. Your responsibility. Your decision.
Build what You want and how want. Follow the plans and AC-43. Fix what isnt airworthy and accept or fix cosmetic issues as you see fit. Period.
You will have more fun that way than worrying about conforming to someone else's ideal.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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10-29-2015, 07:46 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 216
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On the pop rivet thing
Just going to chime in on the pop rivets thing.
The MK-319-BS rivets are well in-line with the Van's Manual/Plans for the last two holes as you mentioned. (Although I found that 7/64" hole did not allow the rivet to sit flush, the #33 hole was perfect). My thought process is that I'm trying to build a nice plane, not a show plane so I'm ok with simple processes like pop rivets. (I tried to do the EAA indirect rivet technique, but I just couldn't get it to set nice on my test pieces  )
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10-29-2015, 08:57 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: US
Posts: 2,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero_Octaveus
Just going to chime in on the pop rivets thing.
The MK-319-BS rivets are well in-line with the Van's Manual/Plans for the last two holes as you mentioned. (Although I found that 7/64" hole did not allow the rivet to sit flush, the #33 hole was perfect). My thought process is that I'm trying to build a nice plane, not a show plane so I'm ok with simple processes like pop rivets. (I tried to do the EAA indirect rivet technique, but I just couldn't get it to set nice on my test pieces  )
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Just another piece of data...pulled rivets oftentimes have 120 degree angles on the flush heads, NOT 100 degrees. You can buy 120 countersinks and dimple dies for these cases, and they'll sit flush better if you do.
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10-29-2015, 09:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule
No issue with the MK-319-BS blind rivets. The phrase "Pop rivets," though, implies something considerably less, and is worth clarifying. If in fact "Pop-rivets" were used, they should be replaced with the MK-319-BS rivets or AD solid rivets.
Terminology matters.
Dave
P.S. I replaced my entire horizontal stabilizer for less damage, just trying to be airworthy. It's described here. Please see post #14.
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Terminology does matter...
However, in this case MK319BS as mentioned by Vans is actually a "POP" rivet company part number...
POP is the brand name of the original manufacturer, now owned by Stanley Engineered Fastening, a division of Stanley Black & Decker
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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10-29-2015, 10:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ramona, CA
Posts: 2,370
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I know it is agonizing to bugger up something like this on the beginning of the project. Hopes are high for perfection and then are dashed.
Here's my advice: build on.
5 years later after doing the wings, fuselage, finish kit if this still bothers you, then fix it or build a new one. You will have gained lots of perspective during the build, so don't sweat this now.
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10-30-2015, 07:39 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
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Dear SticknRudder, I'm not going to give you my opinion as to whether you should accept that damage or not. In the end YOU have to make the decision. Asking other builders on VansAirforce is largely useless in cases like this. Builders with dings all over their aircraft will tell you to bog it up and move on. Those who are compelled to build to a higher standard will tell you to repair or replace the defect. In essence the advice you will get will say more about the project/aircraft owned by the poster and their attitude to building than it will about your problem.
I recommend you take some more pix and send them to Vans for a structural assessment. If Vans thinks it is not a structural issue then you simply have to decide whether the defect meets your own aesthetic standards.
Having said that I would make the following comments.
1. When you get into tight spaces for riveting you should be prepared to consider grinding down/reshaping a bucking bar specifically for the task. That's what good builders do. Buy some scrap steel pieces of different cross sections to modify. There's very few places on an RV7(A) that you can't access with the right bucking bar.
2. Don't try to develop new riveting skiils on the actual aircraft. If you do you are destined to end up with a very ordinary plane. Practice new techniques on scrap otherwise your aircraft becomes the scrap.
3. This defect is on the empennage. That's the very start of the aircraft. What you are prepared to accept at this stage establishes the benchmark for the whole plane.
4. What you build is what you are.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing 
Bob Barrow
RV7A
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10-30-2015, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Trenton, SC
Posts: 117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceh
I know it is agonizing to bugger up something like this on the beginning of the project. Hopes are high for perfection and then are dashed.
Here's my advice: build on.
5 years later after doing the wings, fuselage, finish kit if this still bothers you, then fix it or build a new one. You will have gained lots of perspective during the build, so don't sweat this now.
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I'm with you Bruce,a couple years down the road he should revisit the rudder and see if it meets with his approval based on the rest of the build. At that point do you think you really want to put a $300 dinged up rudder on a $100 K airplane ? This is assuming it cannot be cosmetically repaired. Based on the pictures, I don't think there is a structural issue.
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10-30-2015, 09:04 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tustin, CA
Posts: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edbooth
I'm with you Bruce,a couple years down the road he should revisit the rudder and see if it meets with his approval based on the rest of the build. At that point do you think you really want to put a $300 dinged up rudder on a $100 K airplane ? This is assuming it cannot be cosmetically repaired. Based on the pictures, I don't think there is a structural issue.
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In the end, this may in fact be what I will do. I am already thinking of paint schemes that will allow easy replacement of the rudder (I like the checkerboard I've seen on some). For now I will press on. Later, who knows?
Thank you for ALL of the opinions. They are all helpful in seeing things from many perspectives.
__________________
Rick Woods
N5427W == Jack, Hank, Barbara, and Rick Woods.
RV-7
Flying, but not done, never done.
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10-30-2015, 12:18 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stilwell, KS
Posts: 1,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul K
Dan H., thanks for the chart. I haven't see it before but I can tell that I was always striving for the 10 category and may have accepted a 9 if that was the best I could achieve after several attempts to reach 10. Unfortunately that is why it took 6 years to get the project in the air but I would do it the same if I did it over again.
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And you'd win another Lindy, too! 
__________________
Katie Bosman
RV-3B sold, but flying!
Next project: ???
Builders gonna build...
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