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  #21  
Old 10-05-2015, 02:00 PM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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Quote:
I won't use anything with ethanol as there are simply too many unknowns and anecdotal evidence for one RV doesn't necessarily carry over to other RVs due to build differences, etc.
We have now had a good 2 decades of testing with ethanol fuel.
How many decades of testing would put you at ease?
Would you feel better if big brother put his approval on it?

Quote:
It is difficult to say it is OK to burn E10 in all RV's because it worked fine in yours.
Here is what I said and quite different from how you put it.
Quote:
All of the low compression engines, 8:1 or less, can easily burn 91 octane gasoline and with very little modification can also tolerate ethanol.

Specifically I am pointing out "very little modification" and by modification I am referring to the fuel system. The engine does not need any modifications.
The most feared aspect of using low octane fuel is the dreaded vapor lock demon. A properly set up fuel system will not vapor lock.
Many options are available but in my case it is an AFP fuel injection system,
(approved for use with ethanol).
Since we no longer have to fear corrosion, stock aluminum fuel lines are ok
and Teflon lined stainless steel braided hoses for FF are standard as well.
This set up leaves you with 2 modifications. Exchange the o rings on the quick drains and install a constant flow return line.

I have yet to hear from someone who has had any kind of trouble with E10.
All of the voices against this fuel are from people who heard from someone that
it does not work but have never tried it in their own Lycomings.

I am not selling any parts or services but I have noticed that we as experimental aircraft enthusiasts are moving ever so slightly towards certified and approved installations and forget that we have the privilege to push the envelop a bit.
Not suggesting that you through caution into the wind and blindly try something that will put you at risk. I am simply telling you that E10 works very well for me and hundreds of others who have successfully used it for many years.
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Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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  #22  
Old 10-05-2015, 10:19 PM
hgerhardt's Avatar
hgerhardt hgerhardt is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: torrance, ca
Posts: 650
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Ernst,
You missed (or ignored) my point completely. I said that in a VENTED fuel system (like RV's and lawn mowers), the simple act of the tanks' breathing from daily temperature swings draws in moisture which is absorbed by the ethanol. If you fly on a REGULAR BASIS (as you obviously do):
Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
...for the last 3 years and 300 plus hours...
then you add enough NEW FUEL for that moisture to never be a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
...Comparing lawn mowers and other small engines made by the Chicoms
What you say about lawn mowers is completely irrelevant. Their fuel systems are no less sophisticated than
Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
state of the art Lycoming
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard you say!

The point with the small engines is that they tend to sit for extended periods (like months) with the same fuel in the tank. That old fuel gets saturated with moisture (from the daily tank breathing) and then the ethanol/water mixture settles out and turns to jello which clogs the carb jets and causes corrosion.

Now, Ernst, since you fly all the time, YOU WILL NEVER see this sort of problem. The people who will have problems are the ones who let their airplanes (or lawn mowers) sit over the winter for months without starting the engine and adding fresh fuel.

The easiest solution is to drain the E10 and fill the tanks with 100LL when storing the airplane (or lawn mower) for the winter.

Heinrich
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2015, 06:16 AM
krw5927 krw5927 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 1,958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
A properly set up fuel system will not vapor lock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
I have yet to hear from someone who has had any kind of trouble with E10.
All of the voices against this fuel are from people who heard from someone that
it does not work but have never tried it in their own Lycomings.
I'll assume you're referring to injected engines, but since you didn't specifically state it and your post otherwise seemed to imply that my fuel system is not properly set up....

I HAVE had trouble with mogas, and ethanol neither hurt nor helped the matter. My trouble was the rather the poorly-controlled, unpredictable, and most always high Reid Vapor Pressure of mogas in my lycoming-powered RV9A. Even ASTM-spec mogas has a wide band of RVP tolerance which varies by state and by month of the year. Great if you're running high pressure injection in a car or staying on the ground.

I'm not the only one, either. Just search the forum for the words "mogas" and "stumble" together, and you'll find multiple other cases of the exact thing. Warm engine from a previous flight, mogas in the tanks, unknown RVP (because unless you test every load, the RVP of mogas is ALWAYS unknown). The feeling of my engine acting like it's getting ready to quit less than 800ft off the runway is one I'll never forget. The fact is that 100LL is controlled to much tighter tolerances and has a higher RVP to begin with than most (all?) mogas blends. For me it's well worth the price to never have to experience that again.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2015, 06:26 AM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
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Posts: 1,516
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Quote:
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard you say!
A bit tongue in cheek but in the absence of anything better, a Lycoming is by definition, indeed state of the art.

Your points are well taken and I appreciate the responses.
However, I see that the only experience you have with ethanol is a
"Honda Generator" and none running it in a Lycoming powered airplane.

Quote:
What you say about lawn mowers is completely irrelevant. Their fuel systems are no less sophisticated than
I beg to differ, first of all you brought up the Honda generator and secondly
I made reference to the inferior alloys used in some of those cheap installations not the sophistication of the system, making them vulnerable to
corrosion and deterioration.
You look at an AFP fuel controller "approved for ethanol" and one of those
third world carburetors that you can scratch up with your fingernails you would have to agree that comparing fuel controllers from weed whackers/generator etc. is no comparison to "state of the art" aircraft fuel injection systems.

I am still hoping to hear from someone who has had any problems running E10
in a Lycoming powered airplane, RV or other.
I am willing to bet the farm that none exists.
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Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:06 AM
krw5927 krw5927 is offline
 
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Location: Wichita, KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
I am still hoping to hear from someone who has had any problems running E10
in a Lycoming powered airplane, RV or other.
I am willing to bet the farm that none exists.
Cool! Where's this new farm of mine?
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:28 AM
WA85 WA85 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Royse City, TX
Posts: 143
Default Operating with 93 Octane E10

I have been running 93 Octane E10 in my IO-320 for about 50 hrs. The two biggest issues I have seen are:

During high ambient temps (85 F plus), the 93 E10 definitely has a higher tendency to boil in the injector lines at low power settings such as taxiing after landing or after prolonged idle power approach followed by application of go around max power, there is a hesitation until the boiling fuel gets purged. Running pure 93 E10, this happens consistently at about 85 F and higher, getting worse the higher the temps are. Running pure 100LL raises the threshold to about 95 F before I get the same issues. But I know why this happens and deal with it.

The AFP fuel pump O-rings swell slightly when using 93 E-10 and cause the fuel pressure to be around 35 psi when the pump is on and the engine is running. Using pure 100LL, the O-rings in the pump return to "normal" and the pressure settles down to 28 psi.

Both of these issues have well understood cause and effect issues, if you can operate safely with them, so be it.

Other than those two issues, I have run 93 E10 without issue.
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:31 AM
N459RC N459RC is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stephenville, tx
Posts: 49
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After 6 years and close to 600 hrs running mostly 87 octane the only problem I've had was the o-rings on the fuel sumps. Replaced them with viton o-rings. This is an o-320 e2d 7:1 compression with e-mags.I fly above 10k on a regular basis. The only time I run 100LL is when I'm on a trip and have to fuel away from home. The only other problem I see is my fuel flow on the GRT fluctuates, I talked to GRT and they said that was common with auto gas.
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:55 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
Maybe it is time to revisit the mogas discussion.
With avgas prices down between 3 and 4 dollars, we mogas users are seeing
fuel prices at around $2.50 for 91 Octane E10.
Many of us have successfully used 91 Octane mogas with ethanol and found no adverse effects of any kind.
As with the many old wife's tales recently discussed in this forum, perhaps
more of us will lean towards building an ethanol tolerant fuel system.
All of the low compression engines, 8:1 or less, can easily burn 91 octane gasoline and with very little modification can also tolerate ethanol.

While there may not be much incentive with avgas prices hovering at less than 4 dollars, the time will come again when avgas fuel prices go back up to 6 or 7 dollars.
You can be pro active and build for the future or wait for the guvmt. to bring
you very expensive alternative 100 Octane avgas.
Ernst are you certain the components of the Lycoming mechanical pump are compatible with ethanol?
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:13 AM
airguy's Avatar
airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
Ernst are you certain the components of the Lycoming mechanical pump are compatible with ethanol?
Since Lycoming will not tell anyone what the internal components are made from, no, nobody can be certain. The only evidence that can be gathered is direct experience - which seems to indicate that (at least the more recently manufactured) materials are tolerant.
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N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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  #30  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:19 AM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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Quote:
Ernst are you certain the components of the Lycoming mechanical pump are compatible with ethanol?
No, I am not!

I am looking at the vanguard squadron and their 15 plus years of operating
with a standard mechanical fuel pump and my concerns are none.
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Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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