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09-30-2015, 10:41 AM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Boone, Iowa
Posts: 342
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Buying on pricepoint
I just replied to a post on rivet sets, and Martin going out of business. We are seeing this with too many US vendors and I thought it is a good opportunity to mention that the consumer is the one who decides if they will have access to US made, quality products, or if we will all be forced into buying foreign sourced junk. When price is all that drives a purchase, we are effectively forcing a single source model where US manufacturers fold, and your cash gets bundled up and sent to China. The purchaser and future purchasers are then using an inferior tool and is frustrated that they can't find anything better. We have seen it happen with Craftsman over the last 50 years, and Snap-On in the last 10.
I sell tools, it puts food on my table and my family's only source of income, so yes I am biased. We started out 23 years ago because we had three of every tool. Trying to find a better, more enjoyable way to get a job done should not be that hard (or as expensive as buying three of everything). We found the best of everything and made a catalog. So many of those original tools no longer exist. Many never did and we started manufacturing them. We operate in a tiny market, where there is a thin line between make and break. A great deal of time is spent when a supplier goes under and a new one must be located. Finding that US (or German, Swiss, Israel, UK...) supplier is getting harder and harder. SnapOn has bought several our suppliers and while they have that 'quality' name, they have been cheapening up tools (read sourcing parts) to the point that I feel they are far inferior, Sioux being a prime example, but not the only one under their umbrella.
Perhaps we can re-frame purchasing decisions to think that that extra 30% we pay to get a US made product is a charitable donation to support jobs of US workers, and the 'prize' that we get for making that donation is a much upgraded product and a healthier long term economy.
Thanks for listening,
Mike
[thread moved to General Discussion for greater exposure; S. Buchanan]
Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 09-30-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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09-30-2015, 11:21 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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The reality is that we all build/buy/fly amateur-built aircraft because they (and we) are cheap. If we had unlimited resources, we'd be flying everything from Swifts to Mustangs.
Don't justify your prices with "we can't make them cheaper in the US". That's just sounding a death rattle that you can hear at any North American manufacturer right now. Justify your prices with excellent value (by continually sourcing vendors that can supply high quality at a lower price - and yes, that might mean going overseas), fast service, and support (by standing behind the tools you make - which you already do).
"Made in USA" is not the marketing plus that it used to be. Frequently that label is now applied to products made at a company that is cut back to the bone just to survive, and the quality is barely good enough to sell.
Or it simply means it's made in USA, Japan. 
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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09-30-2015, 12:00 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake
The reality is that we all build/buy/fly amateur-built aircraft because they (and we) are cheap. If we had unlimited resources, we'd be flying everything from Swifts to Mustangs.
Don't justify your prices with "we can't make them cheaper in the US". That's just sounding a death rattle that you can hear at any North American manufacturer right now. Justify your prices with excellent value (by continually sourcing vendors that can supply high quality at a lower price - and yes, that might mean going overseas), fast service, and support (by standing behind the tools you make - which you already do).
"Made in USA" is not the marketing plus that it used to be. Frequently that label is now applied to products made at a company that is cut back to the bone just to survive, and the quality is barely good enough to sell.
Or it simply means it's made in USA, Japan. 
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This seems to be an over-the-top harsh response. Have you walked in the shoes of a (North) American small business owner who has tried for decades to provide the best quality/service at a reasonable price? Owning this type of business is not a path to riches, more likely a way to make a living from one's passion - and that passion and the desire of the OP to provide the best quality deserves respect. I'm not necessarily in agreement that foreign-sourced items are poor quality, but there is a correlation temporally.
I have seen a decline in quality in almost everything I buy - shoes, appliances, tools, household fixtures - that is not consistently commensurate with price. Value is one thing, quality another - but buying quality and being willing to pay a premium price has always paid off in my experience. I bought my RV not because it's the cheapest but because it's the best in it's class and is a great combination of both quality and value. And if/when I build/buy another airplane RV's are at the top of my list for the same reasons.
Last edited by mturnerb : 09-30-2015 at 12:05 PM.
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09-30-2015, 12:23 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 5,297
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I agree that made in the US doesn't mean what it used to. Even US made products have seen a reduction in quality due to a need to compete. The real challenge is finding a product made to a specific quality point. This used to be a simple matter of picking a quality brand, but that simply doesn't work anymore. Too many companies have acquired brands and then reduce the quality point. This works successfully for these companies, as Americans are conditioned to equate brand with quality; generally speaking. When a company spends many decades producing quality products, that association will last for quite some time and allow the new owner to capitalize on it while delivering a lesser product.
Without getting into a political diatribe, the real issue here is that US-based product companies at the smaller end of the size scale simply cannot compete in a global economy due to the regulations imposed upon them by our government(s). This is why service based companies show all of the growth. Unfortunately there really is no good answer. We either relax the constraints, (environmental, taxes, worker rights, etc., etc.) or we limit/tax imports. I think we have successfully proven that you can't have both.
Larry
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09-30-2015, 12:27 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Richmond Hill, GA (KLHW)
Posts: 2,189
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I buy quality tools most of the time (Craftsman, MAC, Snap-On - in that order) but do go cheap for things I will seldom use, if the tool gets the job done.
Craftsman tools are probably made in China but they still have a lifetime warranty. If money were no object, I would have Snap-On everything. Unfortunately, that is not the case and will not be for anyone that wants to build their own airplane. As mentioned above, we are all on a budget and do what we can with what we have.
People that can afford to burn money do not build their own airplanes.
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Ray
RV-7A - Slider - N495KL - First flt 27 Jan 17
O-360-A4M w/ AFP FM-150 FI, Dual PMags, Vetterman Trombone Exh, SkyTech starter, BandC Alt (PP failed after 226 hrs)
Catto 3 blade NLE, FlightLines Interior, James cowl, plenum & intake, Anti-Splat -14 seat mod and nose gear support
All lines by TSFlightLines (aka Hoser)
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09-30-2015, 12:36 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BC
Posts: 1,674
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short sighted economics
If we are the least bit patriotic/loyal to our families, neighbors, communities and country, (and why shouldnt we be), we should look for that product made at home even if it costs significantly more (if you can even find it) because otherwise you will NOT have a choice in the future.
The foreigners are cheating to keep prices low enough to export and still make a profit.
Example, If your child was making and selling cookies but they cost double what you could buy elsewhere, would you tell him/her, "you need to lower your price or I will not buy?" Isn't there already additional "value" buy buying local? Also, any profit your child makes from you is staying in your household. This is money that you would have to cough up anyway if there was ever a short fall. Not to mention your child is working, making a buck, learning to be independant and doing something useful with their time. If all the meaningful jobs go overseas, will your kids move to China to "bake the cookies"? Or will they stay here, watching TV (or continue to be entertained in some other short sighted way), as you grumble "I miss the good-ole-days" and munch on half price cookies made with unknown (to you) ingredients, unknown facilities/working conditions, unacceptable quality control standard etc etc.
Buy local or expect your children to be unemployed or have to move away to far off places for meaningful work. It's that simple.
Bevan
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RV7A Flying since 2015
O-360-A1F6 (parallel valve) 180HP
Dual P-mags
Precision F.I. with AP purge valve
Vinyl Wrapped Exterior
Grand Rapids EFIS
Located in western Canada
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09-30-2015, 12:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
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To expand on Snowflake's comments...
More often than not, the cuts US companies make are *not* to 'just survive', but are to *maximize profits*, with a 'screw the consumer' attitude. I strongly doubt that Snap-on is cheapening their tools because they're just trying to survive, and Craftsman (Sears) likely didn't survive *because* they cheapened their tools.
Mike,
While I appreciate what you and your company have done for homebuilders, I have to disagree with the way you framed your statements, saying that USA made products are good and foreign products are junk. That's just plain false, because it obviously isn't universally true (or even frequently true, these days).
While there are still issues with Chinese products, they are improving rapidly, much like Japanese products coming to the USA back in the 1950's & 60's (days that I clearly remember). By the 1980's, buying a US-built car was just stupid, when you could buy Japanese for less money (even with severe import tariffs) and have a car that was much more reliable and lasted twice as long. Today, wages/benefits in many Pacific rim countries rival US wages, yet quality is superior. Optics, electronics, autos, the internet, health care, even basic science are typically higher quality when sourced from foreign markets these days.
So if paying an extra 30% gets me needed higher quality, I'll pay it. But if all it gets me is 30% higher cost, then no thank you. Why reward poor performance?
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09-30-2015, 01:00 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Royse City, TX
Posts: 143
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Cleaveland Aircraft Tools has been a huge support to the RV building community and we need to support them in return. I bought a Cleaveland main squeeze and it is probably the most valuable tool I had during my RV-8 build. The tool had a minor issue and Mike took an hour out of his busy day at Osh to rebuild it for me, now that is what I call service. How about all the wonderful interiors DJ has made for the RV community?
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09-30-2015, 01:10 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
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Matt, I can certainly appreciate your position. There is no easy answer, lack consumption drives everything.
If I make $100 and buy a Snap-On tool for $40, by the time all the sticky fingers get to what I earned and what SO earned, I get a tool that cost SO $20 to make (they have a 50% gross margin and 35% federal tax rate), we paid $60 to various taxes, and I have $10 left. So what did the $60 buy?
I will keep voting until it makes a difference. Maybe.
__________________
Bill
RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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09-30-2015, 01:14 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Boone, Iowa
Posts: 342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie
-snip-
I have to disagree with the way you framed your statements, saying that USA made products are good and foreign products are junk. That's just plain false, because it obviously isn't universally true (or even frequently true, these days).
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Agreed. I had specific examples in mind that I didn't get into. Suffice it to say that just because any two things look alike it doesn't mean they are the same quality. Each of these examples were US vs. China (mainland). But I certainly agree that the Eastern quality is growing fast, and concede that due to a variety of reasons some of the US quality has diminished.
The quality was one side of my argument, the 'buy local' economics was another side.
Many good points from all, glad to have the discussion going.
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