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09-08-2015, 08:27 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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Bank angle
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvalovich
One thing missing from this thread regarding the 45 - 60 degree AOB turn (I do 60): you need to be familiar with your planes handling characteristics at 60 degrees AOB while aggressively pulling g's near - not into - a stall. Be able to pull hard and know what it feels like to maintain controllability just above (pick a stall margin you're comfortable with) stall. A 45 - 60 degree AOB turn without pulling won't work.
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Ok understood. However, what I was taught is pulling up does not occur until the wings are level or close to it in this case. A decending bank turn does not exert any g factor. In no way would I pull up during the bank in this case. I'm not that good. Your seeing the runway back in view when you begin to level off the wings.
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Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
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09-08-2015, 08:29 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767
Ok, I was not sure in reading the original post. Do you remember if you were getting a warning from the AOA before the wing drop? If not I would still look into the calibration. Your single best tool to performing a max rate turn at high angle of bank and low airspeed should be the AOA.
G
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Yeah - Im using an old Dynon (the first one actually) and the AOA doesn't display as prominently as it should. Once I started using it, it was REALLY accurate in predicting the stall. As soon as the arrow touched the red, the wing (s) would buffet.
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09-08-2015, 08:49 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mpumalanga, South Africa
Posts: 1,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonweisw
The crash I saw has no official NTSB analysis available yet, but it was clear to me and others that there was a significant engine problem on the climb out, followed by the crash 1/2 mile from the field while the pilot tried to turn back.
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That pretty much says it all. I don't know if it's some sort of macho culture thing, but almost no-one in UK advocates or practices turning back. Find a field within 30 of the nose and do your best. Worst case, you flop in at 50kts and run into a hedge - you'll probably walk away.
I know, everyone has a field with mountains and/or trees off the end.........
__________________
Paul
Mercy Air, White River FAWV
RV-10 ZU-IIZ - "Zeus"
Building Bearhawk Bravo - RV-18 not available
2019 Donation Made
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09-08-2015, 09:16 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul330
That pretty much says it all. I don't know if it's some sort of macho culture thing, but almost no-one in UK advocates or practices turning back. Find a field within 30 of the nose and do your best. Worst case, you flop in at 50kts and run into a hedge - you'll probably walk away.
I know, everyone has a field with mountains and/or trees off the end.........
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Absolutely the best idea given those circumstances. We don't all have that option
In congested areas of the U.S. Not Macho at all, just another tool in the box.
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
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09-08-2015, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 45
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Although the RV line has great performance numbers, we as builder/pilots have to understand that this performance only occurs when the engine is running. When it is not running, it is nothing more than a poor glider. For me, turn back....Not without a couple thousand feet between me and the unforgiving earth!
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RV-4 Emp started
RV-7 Emp
USAF MSgt Ret
Dan Lade
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09-08-2015, 12:46 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Posts: 432
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Pitch Rate
Quote:
Originally Posted by agirard7a
Ok understood. However, what I was taught is pulling up does not occur until the wings are level or close to it in this case. A decending bank turn does not exert any g factor. In no way would I pull up during the bank in this case. I'm not that good. Your seeing the runway back in view when you begin to level off the wings.
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Don't want to get into an argument, but the above statement is incorrect in the context of optimum turn rate. Pitch rate with respect to to lift vector does not care what the attitude of the aircraft is. To get the nose around as quickly as possible and maintain control you have to lower the nose while rolling then pull. You can descend in a high angle of bank turn without pulling, but why would you do that? ACM 101.
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09-08-2015, 12:53 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvalovich
Don't want to get into an argument, but the above statement is incorrect in the context of optimum turn rate. Pitch rate with respect to to lift vector does not care what the attitude of the aircraft is. To get the nose around as quickly as possible and maintain control you have to lower the nose while rolling then pull. You can descend in a high angle of bank turn without pulling, but why would you do that? ACM 101.
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Oh go ahead and get into an arguement; his statement is nonsense. If he wasn't pulling any "g's" the plane wouldn't turn. What is true is that you will pull fewer g's if you let the plane free fall, vertically. This is not a constant rate of descent, but falling like a rock. Lose altitude fast!
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09-08-2015, 12:56 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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Glide performance
Obviously all aircraft have to rely on glide performance should an engine
quit wether it's flying straight ahead or turning around. A stopped prop will have better glide performance than a windmilling one. Yes a plane with a windmilling prop will not have the same glide performance as an idle engine prop. The bottom line is these RV's climb well and fast. When you reach 500-1,000 AGL your not far from the runway, especially in any kind of head wind. In many cases this will be accomplished before you get to the end of the runway. Once you make the initial turn around in a safe decending bank at a comfortable margin of air speed not to fall out of the sky and leveling off, the rest is up to glide performance depending on how far away you are. The times that I have done this, getting back is not the issue, it's getting down without overshooting.
Personally, this whole turn back issue I know is a heated issue with some saying don't ever try it. To me if done correctly it's a skill that may save my life one day. I'm just very greatful I was taught how to do it safely.
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
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09-08-2015, 01:03 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 705
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Stand corrected
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvalovich
Don't want to get into an argument, but the above statement is incorrect in the context of optimum turn rate. Pitch rate with respect to to lift vector does not care what the attitude of the aircraft is. To get the nose around as quickly as possible and maintain control you have to lower the nose while rolling then pull. You can descend in a high angle of bank turn without pulling, but why would you do that? ACM 101.
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Sorry stand corrected, very low g in a decending turn not a "no g".
The point being sure if your maintaing the 100 mph yes you have to pull up not to fall like a stone. So yes some G's will happen , according to my instructor, 1 g. Not to nit pick here but the point was for safety not to pull up extensively while in the bank but wait until you start to level off.
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
Last edited by agirard7a : 09-08-2015 at 01:10 PM.
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09-08-2015, 01:16 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agirard7a
Personally, this whole turn back issue I know is a heated issue with some saying don't ever try it. To me if done correctly it's a skill that may save my life one day.
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True statement
But I feel compelled to add to it that "done incorrectly, it will likely kill you"
A stall close to the ground is pretty much an unforgivable mistake.
If you practice the maneuver and you can perform equally well when the pressure is on, then your outcome may be good.
For all others.... a forced landing at minimum possible airspeed, even into very unfriendly terrain will probably result in not much more than a damaged airplane.... A lot better outcome than you will get if you stall.....
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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