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The trials and tribulations of buying a flying RV...

tkatc

Well Known Member
I have been trying to get into an RV for about 4 years or so. I would rather buy and fly than build right now. I see myself building....but not in the next 10 years. Even if I did start building right now, I would not know what or how to build to support my mission.

I want to fly....and I want to fly an RV. I despise going to the local airport to rent the PA28 for $110 an hour. While I like flying, the Cherokee is slow, it's not available when I want it, and it's $110 per hour that could be going into my OWN airplane. Trips in the Cherokee are limited, not by my time, but by the FBO. I imagine owning your own airplane will involve headaches....but they are YOUR headaches and you can do something about them.

So, even given this buyer's market as they call it, I am finding the process of buying a flying RV difficult. Given the emotional bond between builder and airplane I can see why so many people have inflated prices. Maybe it's because the person really doesn't want to sell it, maybe it's because they are not in tune with the current market, maybe they think their airplane is better than it really is...

On the other hand, there are RV's very reasonably priced, but I find these RV's need exstensive work before I would be proud to show it to my local buddies who may already look down upon "experimentals".

There are RVs out there that I am not interested in because I prefer a different power plant or different options....maybe I am too picky. I was close to a deal last month but couldn't come to an agreement on price.

Then I found another one. I was very excited this week when I ordered a pre-buy inspection on a 7A that was advertised as a "9 out of 10" only to be very disappointed with the inspection report from my mechanic. I am now back to square one minus the cost of the pre-buy...

Thanks for letting me vent here.....if you know of a nice 6A or 7A for sale let me know.
 
Sounds like you are going though the normal trials and tribulations of buying an airplane.

No matter what the market conditions are the warning "Caveat Emptor" still applies. Along with "You get what you pay for." Oh, and "The sweetness of a low price fades quickly when the bitterness of poor quality is tasted":D.

If I can think of any more cliché's I'll let you know! :D
 
I have been trying to get into an RV for about 4 years or so. I would rather buy and fly than build right now. I see myself building....but not in the next 10 years. Even if I did start building right now, I would not know what or how to build to support my mission.

I want to fly....and I want to fly an RV. I despise going to the local airport to rent the PA28 for $110 an hour. While I like flying, the Cherokee is slow, it's not available when I want it, and it's $110 per hour that could be going into my OWN airplane. Trips in the Cherokee are limited, not by my time, but by the FBO. I imagine owning your own airplane will involve headaches....but they are YOUR headaches and you can do something about them.

So, even given this buyer's market as they call it, I am finding the process of buying a flying RV difficult. Given the emotional bond between builder and airplane I can see why so many people have inflated prices. Maybe it's because the person really doesn't want to sell it, maybe it's because they are not in tune with the current market, maybe they think their airplane is better than it really is...

On the other hand, there are RV's very reasonably priced, but I find these RV's need exstensive work before I would be proud to show it to my local buddies who may already look down upon "experimentals".

There are RVs out there that I am not interested in because I prefer a different power plant or different options....maybe I am too picky. I was close to a deal last month but couldn't come to an agreement on price.

Then I found another one. I was very excited this week when I ordered a pre-buy inspection on a 7A that was advertised as a "9 out of 10" only to be very disappointed with the inspection report from my mechanic. I am now back to square one minus the cost of the pre-buy...

Thanks for letting me vent here.....if you know of a nice 6A or 7A for sale let me know.

I think you asked your question and answered it in the same post! :)

Keep on looking--you will find your plane but most likely will end up paying more than you wish at this point.
 
It took me three airline trips to get mine and it was not perfect. In today's market it would be a throwback since it has steam gauges but I have flown far more places than many people every will with it. I had a chance to fly a 6A with a small Dynon in it and hardly even used that instrument..preferring the steam gauges for airspeed and altitude.

What exactly are you looking for and what is your expected price for that aircraft?

If you expect a show plane, you may need to rethink that. I suspect that you will gravitate towards a new flock of aviators (RV pilots) when you get your plane. You will be in a different league.

"On the other hand, there are RV's very reasonably priced, but I find these RV's need extensive work before I would be proud to show it to my local buddies who may already look down upon "experimentals"."

Personally, I ignore the viewpoint of people like that.

At my airport, several RVs are not painted. One is painted partially pink (think Pepto Bismol).

Keep looking although if you have been looking seriously for four years then maybe some adjustment in your selection process may be needed.
 
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Umm...no...I was willing to pay fair market value. My post probably sounded like I was trying to swindle the best deal known to man. In fact...I thought the price I agreed to was pretty high but I was willing to go ahead because it was supposedly so nice. I won't go into the particulars but I wasn't trying to "steal" the airplane.

Am I looking for a good deal? Sure I am!! Just like the builder did when buying each piece of equipment. Am I willing to pay for quality? Sure am!! Am I willing to pay for percieved quality? No.

Let me also say that I wasn't the "judge" when it came to quality. I hired a respected, well educated mechanic/builder to be the "judge" and I respect that judgement.
 
Ron Lee...thanks for the encouragement. I just wanted to get this post out as I was venting and not articulating enough. I started looking 4 years ago but put that aside for personal reasons until about 5 months ago.

Just so you get an idea of what is in my head....I am looking for a 6A or 7A. I prefer an O-360, injected or carb doesn't matter. C/S or FP prop is fine but I don't want a wood prop. The panel is where most RVs differ. I have nothing against steam nor glass. Just a well thought out and attractive panel with good avionics would do the job.

The market for a 6A is typically $50-65k depending on equipment. Of course that figure will go up or down for extreme configurations. The 7A seems to demand $10-15K more even though they are essentially the same aircraft.

Think my numbers are skewed? I would love to hear opinions and see examples. I am here to learn....and I am grateful to have a forum where this is possible.
 
I've been looking a bit recently and it seems to me like your number is pretty close for something equipped with a fairly basic panel. Anything with extensive avionics and/or lots of glass tends to get much higher very quick.
 
Let me also say that I wasn't the "judge" when it came to quality. I hired a respected, well educated mechanic/builder to be the "judge" and I respect that judgement.

I have had several prebuy inspections and they are all over the map as to completeness, accuarcy, and objectivity. Most of the time you have to "read between the lines". Other times they have kept me from huge mistakes!

Good luck, great deals /great planes are out there.
 
"Mechanic"

Then I found another one. I was very excited this week when I ordered a pre-buy inspection on a 7A that was advertised as a "9 out of 10" only to be very disappointed with the inspection report from my mechanic. I am now back to square one minus the cost of the pre-buy...

Thanks for letting me vent here.....if you know of a nice 6A or 7A for sale let me know.

Is your mechanic an RV guy? Other words has he owned or built one or otherwise involved? We had a bad experience with one who was new to experimentals and really no clue what to look for other than the engine...

The prospective buyer had hired him for a prebuy, and killed the deal on a really nice RV-6a because IMO he was scared of the word "Experimental"..

YMMV...
 
tkatc, your numbers may be close. Certainly for when I bought mine before the downturn in the economy. 7As may command a higher price delta so the 6A will usually be less. There may have been a thread on expected price in the recent past. Maybe someone can find it.

I concur with an 0-360. You are flexible on the fuel delivery system and reasonably so on the prop. Seems like you are flexible enough.

I helped another guy get a 6A. We flew my plane to TX and AZ looking at RVs then I found one at our airport that was a good fit.

Keep looking. It will be worth it. Here is one example

http://tinyurl.com/ku5x5u
 
Hi Tony,

From all I heard you never had Dale?s 6A hear in Vancouver inspected and you bowed out when he would not come down another $1000. Just because it says RV-6/A does not put it in some sort of box as to its value, there was a fellow near hear asking 92k for his -7A and Dale?s airplane is nicer in every way and well under valued at his asking price, there comes a point regardless of the market where a guy that does not ?need? to sell would just rather keep it then give it away. You kind of screwed the pooch on that deal, Dale liked what you are doing hear on vansairforce and tried to give you priority but now his airplane is flying home with its new owner this Saturday and sold for a good bit more then your last offer. The give away/steal it price on a fantastic airplane is a lot higher then on an average one, next time you find the right one and your just a grand or five apart just write the check and don?t look back, you wont regret it, I know I haven?t! You are looking at the right time though, Good hunting!
 
When the "fear of loss" is equal to or greater than the "greed of gain" a sale is made.
 
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I bought my -8A in October. It was 18 months old with 222 hr total time. It was built with all new parts. The price that I paid was about $10,000 more than the cost of kit, engine, avionics, prop and paint. This, I felt, was a bargain, as it also included flight testing and tweaking all the bugs. I got a superb, flying aircraft that gets much attention on the ramp.

Don't be afraid to call the banker.

Good luck in your search.
 
Russ....DON'T RUB IT IN!!! I do regret missing that deal. :) My ignorance is obviously showing here... I have zero experience with this so I am taking advice and learning things on my own in the process. Sometimes that advice is good...other times it backfires. (such is the case with Dale's plane) The only good thing about that situation is that the plane is going to another good owner....and we plan to meet at Osh (or sooner) next year with our "new to us" RV's.

Jerry...my mechanic is a builder and has an exceptional 7...I am sure he knows what he is talking about. Is he super-critical? Maybe. But that is what I paid him to do. I would rather a super-critical guy than someone who over looks things...my life depends on a sound pre-buy. Did I like what my mechanic told me? No. I hate him right now!! :) But better to be disappointed before the sale than after.
 
Jerry...my mechanic is a builder and has an exceptional 7...I am sure he knows what he is talking about. Is he super-critical? Maybe. But that is what I paid him to do. I would rather a super-critical guy than someone who over looks things...my life depends on a sound pre-buy. Did I like what my mechanic told me? No. I hate him right now!! :) But better to be disappointed before the sale than after.

Well put, Tony... Right now you are on the steep part of the learning curve and please realize that everyone here has experienced the same thing, I know I sure did, spending more time scratching my head than wrenching...

FWIW, right now I am partial to 6-6a's because they are discounted by a market that does not seem to realize there's not a nit of diff from -7's..
Good luck and enjoy your quest. You'll look back and see how much fun and educational it was.


.
 
Tony,

Sort of like deciding on a mate for life.

Truth is, if the criteria is too wired, the perfect machine may not exist. There are perfect, perfect airplanes out there built by show stopper builders but very few want to pay the price for that quality. Your machine may be down that list to make it affordable, there are some available now due to the economy. So the thing has a few cosmetic warts, if the engine runs well and it sees Van's numbers, go for it. To heck with picky airplane neighbors and what they may think.

You are missing a lot of good flying looking for the perfect machine price wise and otherwise. Like finding the perfect marriage partner, it may not exist.
 
...The panel is where most RVs differ. I have nothing against steam nor glass. Just a well thought out and attractive panel with good avionics would do the job...

I think you should make sure you define your requirements before you go chasing every RV available. Your description of the panel is a bit ambiguous for example, and this is where a significant bunch of cost variability lies. To the point, "well thought out and attractive" means a lot of different things. Do you plan on flying hard IFR (and pay for it), or will the bare minimum get you by? That decision alone could swing the price by $30k right there.

Figure out what your requirements are, discount those that fall outside that envelope, and press on with your search. You'll get there eventually!
 
the buy sell ferris wheel

I'm not sure tkatc is any different from the rest of us.
Let's say you want to buy a car. Yugo or Lexus, or something in between?
which will require more hoursly expenses, which will be more enjoyable over your term of ownership, which will command the best resale percentage?

If you don't want to tie up a lot of money, fly some Mustang 2's and T-18's, and see if they satisfy your bang for the buck needs. For whatever reason, you can buy a T-18 for $30-$40k, and put a few bucks into personalizing it to your tastes. You will not likely recoup all the upgrade costs, but it will improve your ownership experience.
or.......find the absolute gem of your dreams, and get a partner to buy it with you. Initial and operating costs, about half! :)
 
Tkatc,
I too bought an already flying RV. I chose the RV-6. But as fate would have it I ended up with a -6A. I did not care much about the panel because I knew I was going to replace it anyway.

Going in, I had no idea what I really wanted. I thought I knew, but when the time got closer to hand over the money, my decision criteria changed.
I looked for several years, but only seriously for about 1 year. (serous = cash in hand)

I don?t like the paint scheme, the panel was minimal, engine was under powered and slightly high on time. But the build was okay and the rest I could change. But now I am flying. And now I know a lot more about RV?s. And now I have met a lot of nice people I would have never met without a flying RV.

As for the ?other? airplane guys, ignore them. Heck, I have run across RV guys that look down on me cause I did not build the thing. So what.

End the end I have a nice plane that is mine. Search all the sources and let people know you are looking. Be patient and it will come.

And I screwed up too and lost a nice RV to another guy. I just hope sellers can be as patient and forgiving with new buyers as those ATC guys are with us new pilots.
 
Congratulations on the legwork, Tony...

....but don't lose another chance to buy just because it doesn't have everything you want...radios, gauges, autopilots and so on.

We bought our -10 knowing that it wasn't as IFR capable as I wanted, with only an SL-30, but the price was right. So we flew it several months and added a 430W in the winter and the Dynon HS-34 to 'tweak' it to suit us.

This winter, it'll get 'tweaked' some more with a TruTrak Gemini!

Take advantage of this 'buyers' market, get one that's sound and tweak it as time goes by,

Best,
 
Cost of RV6

First, let me assure you everyone that has bought an RV has gone thru the same problem! Next, the cost of the airplane is the least expensive part of owning one!!! I have an RV6A, never owned anything close to it, and I've owned quite a few airplanes. May have paid too much, but I've put another 20K in it since I bought it two years ago, and thinking of putting some more. Follow you bliss, you'll make the right decision. Don't major in minors, and you will make the right decision.

Jerry
N331RD
0320 160hp C/S
 
I bought a flying RV-6 8 years ago and still have it. I wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but it was the best that I saw and best value while I was looking. It wasn't perfect, and I've done a few things to it in the intervening years ...

The point is you will be searching for a long time if you wait until your perfect airplane comes along. There will be many aircraft that fall way short of of the minimum standard you are willing to accept - that's why they're still on the market. The best ones never get advertised - the two best I saw were as a result of wanted ads. I bought the first and got the second for a friend.

Keep searching, keep asking around, don't lower your standards very far, but on the other hand be realistic. There are airplanes out there that will fit your requirements - but you must hear about them first and go look right away with the desposit in your pocket. Be prepared to walk away, even if you have taken an airline trip to get there. Good luck with your search, you won't be disappointed.

Pete
 
I wish I had your problems!! :)

I want an RV-6 so bad I can taste it!! But until I sell my current plane (Sonex) I can't afford to buy another. Well, at least that's what my wife tells me!! :D

I have learned a LOT from reading the responses to your post, and I very much appreciate all the comments. When my plane finally sells I'm going to set my expectations based on what I can afford in the existing market, find a good RV-6 at a fair price (to both seller and buyer) and as one poster said, go to the bank and not look back!!

Good luck with your search!!

Chris
 
My experience

I helped someone look for an RV to buy. It was tough. We found a lot of the RVs were misrepresented or else the builder was in denial and just didn't understand what they really had. The buyer ended up with an RV-6 when they really wanted an RV-6A. Also the airplane was one of the very oldest RV-6s and the instrumentation showed it. Not everything was bad though. This RV, although old, was very solidly built and the paint job was actually still very good.

Since the purchase a lot has been done to the airplane. First the instrumentation was updated by the addition of electronic gizmos for older steam gauges. Some obsolete stuff was pulled out. Repairs were done and the control sticks were lengthened. Later the old panel was completely pulled out and replaced by a modern panel. Old fashioned gear leg and main gear fairings were replaced with modern ones. The owner earned their instrument rating in the updated airplane.

All of this happened over a lot of years and it was a lot of work. I'm not sure if that buyer is satisfied with the way it worked out, but they do seem to have considerable pride in the airplane and the costs were spread out. They didn't build it but they know it very well now and have invested lots of personal labor.

I think the most important lesson here is that they started with a very sound basic airplane.
 
Helpful post

Very interesting to see the perspectives of both buyers and sellers.
I will be selling my RV-8 soon.
I have been considering 2 ways to list my aircraft.
Either price it a bit high and hope for an offer or price it right, cut through the chase and stick to the price.
The latter would save both a potential buyer and me the time to separate the wheat from the chaff. As a buyer I would appreciate not having to travel to see an overpriced aircraft and as a seller you would not have to deal with indecisive tire kickers.
Tony, maybe you can sort a lot of this out on the phone and just ask how a seller arrived at the price and you will quickly see if the price is hope or reality.
On the other hand you should let the buyer know that you have money burning a hole in your pocket and are ready to buy. This will let the buyer know that you are wheat not chaff.
 
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Good stuff guys....when I posted this in the morning the initial posts almost had me regretting bearing my soul. Since then, I have become comfortable with blatant honesty in my endeavor to purchase an RV that will suit me. Fate will decide the rest. If it is meant to be...it will be. (and I will try like **** to facilitate that) :)
 
Resale?

Tony,

Another thing to consider is that someday you will sell this RV and when buying you should think about that. The first thing right after quality of construction is paint scheme and quality IMO... I know of a few that have stagnated on the market because of a B... Ugly paint scheme and/or one that is amateur and shows it. Check out Barnstormers' ads and you'll see what I mean...

Most everything else can be upgraded or improved but bad exterior cosmetics not so much unless the price reflects stripping and new pro paint, about $9K

The FWF seems like everyone likes the O-360/CS Prop. If O-320/FP price should reflect same. Engine time since new or SMOH matters a lot...

Nice panel both in function and cosmetics helps a lot...

YMMV
 
Tony,
One thing about experimental's is that no two are alike. I purchased my 8a about 18 months ago and this is what worked for me.
My opinion is, concentrate on a solid well built airframe, Low hour power plant, and a good prop.
The avionics, interior, and paint can all be changed. I bet 90% of the builders would tell you that they wish they would have gone something different or have made changes after they started flying.
Once you get your RV and start flying, you can make small and large upgrades as time and money allow.
I bought a plane with very basic avionics, and now after my 4th revision the panel is exactly how I want it.
The paint can be changed without a complete redo, its amazing what you can do with color changes and/or vinyl, and any auto upholstery shop can recover seats.
You can't look at to many planes, with everyone you will learn something new.
Good luck and enjoy you search.
 
I have seen more than one mention that there is no significant difference between 6s and 7s.

Aside from the obvious differences gleaned from Vans specs and performance pages any one with experience in both care to comment?
 
IMHO it depends on your definition of "significate differences" betweeen the -6 & -7. I see and feel a lot of differences in roll rate, cabin comfort, upgrades to prepunched work -v- all hand drilled, ect. Both are very good airplanes, but have noticable differences. Is one better than the other? That depends on your mission.

JMHO
 
IMHO it depends on your definition of "significate differences" betweeen the -6 & -7. I see and feel a lot of differences in roll rate, cabin comfort, upgrades to prepunched work -v- all hand drilled, ect. Both are very good airplanes, but have noticable differences. Is one better than the other? That depends on your mission.

Even though there is about a 1" difference somewhere in the cabin area between the 6 & 7/9's...................I'll be danged if I can really tell. Blindfolded on a smooth day, it would be tough to tell which cockpit your in...........if the seats are of the same manufacture. The 9 gets bumped around just as bad as a 6 on a turbulent afternoon, but I haven't sat through much turbulence in a 7. I'd assume it wouldn't be much different.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
6A

I understand the frustration you are going through trying to find a nice airplane. I've seen a bunch of nasty ones the owners thought were just great. With that thought I as owner/builder have what I consider a very nice RV6A and if you may be interested look at my website. There are two links at the top of the page which will show you all the equipment etc. No dickering, no haggling, I'm not going to ask 89k and then come down in price. One price at $79,900 and it's a done deal. If you are one that wants to haggle, contact somebody else. My price is a little less than the total dollars I have in the plane.
http://web.mac.com/dbgrosch/iWeb/Site/RV6A.html
 
I measured the cabin width to be the same for a 6 and 7. That is a place for the 7 to be better. The 7 may have better head room and legroom but it is the same in perhaps the most important area to me.
 
Some of the 6 vs 7 differences

haven't been mentioned in this post, such as the RV7 is engineered for 200 HP engines vs 180 HP for the 6.
The RV7 has a significantly different empennage, with a larger vert stab and counter balanced rudder. (To improve spin characteristics, I believe.)
Additionally, the 7s have the new style spar, as opposed to the laminated spar of the 6 with all the bolts through the center section. (You can decide if that is god or bad.)
Also, larger fuel tank capability of 42 gal in the 7 vs 38 gal in the 6.
The RV7 kits are also totally match pre-punched.
There are probably other differences, but that's what I thought of off hand.
 
....On the other hand, there are RV's very reasonably priced, but I find these RV's need exstensive work before I would be proud to show it to my local buddies who may already look down upon "experimentals".

I was close to a deal last month but couldn't come to an agreement on price.

Even in this "buyer's market", it appears my Dad was correct when he told me years ago that "Good things aren't cheap, and cheap things aren't good!"

Find the nicest plane you would like to call your own, negotiate hard, and pay the money. Otherwise, build your own.

I've worked in the car business all my life and have found 9 out of 10 car buyers can't come within $500 of what they paid for a car they bought last year....and that is only spending $20k-$25k. Ask them what they paid 5 years ago and they are not within $1,500!

Good Luck with your search!


Jon D.
 
Even in this "buyer's market", it appears my Dad was correct when he told me years ago that "Good things aren't cheap, and cheap things aren't good!"

Find the nicest plane you would like to call your own, negotiate hard, and pay the money. Otherwise, build your own.

I've worked in the car business all my life and have found 9 out of 10 car buyers can't come within $500 of what they paid for a car they bought last year....and that is only spending $20k-$25k. Ask them what they paid 5 years ago and they are not within $1,500!

Good Luck with your search!


Jon D.

i paid to much 3 years ago for a new car and that is very accurate :D
 
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