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Possible AD for certain NAVWORX ADS-B Units

I noticed that the Navworx block for certified ADSB equipment on the FAA page was back on there when I looked today . I don't frequent this page very often so It may have been placed earlier but I just noticed it. I know that for quite some time there was no mention of Navworx on this page. That block is for the 600B cert unit with P/N 0112 and 0113 using the internal GPS source and or Aspen NexNav Mini .

copied off the FAA page:
NavWorx ADS600-B, Part Numbers 200-0112 and 200-0113 Source: Internal or Aspen NexNav? Mini Application: Fixed Wing STC Jun 2014
 
I am told Navworx phones and website will all be operational by tommorrow.
Orders are being taken for the compliant units that will ship in June.
Mr. baron asked if he could call me... which I agreed to. Silence since then.
 
Took a look at the NavWorx page just to see if anything new. Was looking at the product offerings ( not that you could buy anything ) but just to see if anything was new. Found this interesting bullet item on the ADS600 receiver ( in Only) unit. Copied from Navworx site:

Certified ADS-B Receiver for upcoming certified ADS-B IN applications ????

To my knowledge the FAA certification process has been been pretty clear about having minimum control on ADS B In receivers. However this bullet item leads one to believe there may be something forthcoming. I know I have been asking about the low end cost Receiver that uAvionix has ( Ping Buddy II) and have been getting " it's not ready for sale yet" and notice that the prototype is no longer available.

Is there some talk of regulations now on certification of the ADSB in products??
 
My ADS600-EXP is working but !!!!!!!

I have a Navworx ADS600-EXP being fed by a KT76A through a TransMon.

This equipment was installed on 05/06/2016 and has worked without issues for 36 flight hours.

In the past, I had requested a few ADS-B reports and all came back with no issues.

I just recently requested another ADSB report using the following link:

[email protected]

Here is the message that I received back that it failed to generate a report.

*****************************************************************
Your Performance Report request for Tail Number N812BM on 5/04/2017 failed to generate a result.

If you believe this is an error, please respond to [email protected] and include the following information:

1. Aircraft registration number and flight identification code,

2. Flight date and time,

3. Make/model of ADS-B transmitter and GPS, and

4. Any ADS-B avionics operating abnormalities observed or reported during the associated flight.

*****************************************************************

I submitted the requested info and got the following reply a couple of days later.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Please see link and contact Navworx.

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/49_1/industrynews/NavWorx-ADS-B_7018-1.html

Additional ADS-B information can be found here:

www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb

Provided by:
Federal Aviation Administration
Flight Standards Division
Avionics Branch (AFS-360)
Washington, DC
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So bottom line is, at present my system is working fine but can't get an ADS-B report ????

The FAA reply refers me to the document about the FAA and Navworx debacle.

So there you have it from another Navworx dazed and confused customer

Bill
 
This mess is like looking in window of an insane asylum.

My patience and confidence in Navworx is gone, have contacted CC bank to get a refund (if possible) on purchase last August, over $1800 invested, nothing to show for it, absolutely nothing.
 
FWIW, I just requested a report for my 600EXP box installed Nov 2015, and received a good & complete report. Reported back within 5 minutes.

Billvt said:
I have a Navworx ADS600-EXP being fed by a KT76A through a TransMon.

This equipment was installed on 05/06/2016 and has worked without issues for 36 flight hours.

In the past, I had requested a few ADS-B reports and all came back with no issues.

I just recently requested another ADSB report using the following link:

[email protected]

Here is the message that I received back that it failed to generate a report.

*****************************************************************
Your Performance Report request for Tail Number N812BM on 5/04/2017 failed to generate a result.

If you believe this is an error, please respond to [email protected] and include the following information:

1. Aircraft registration number and flight identification code,

2. Flight date and time,

3. Make/model of ADS-B transmitter and GPS, and

4. Any ADS-B avionics operating abnormalities observed or reported during the associated flight.

*****************************************************************

I submitted the requested info and got the following reply a couple of days later.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Please see link and contact Navworx.

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/49_1/industrynews/NavWorx-ADS-B_7018-1.html

Additional ADS-B information can be found here:

www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb

Provided by:
Federal Aviation Administration
Flight Standards Division
Avionics Branch (AFS-360)
Washington, DC
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

So bottom line is, at present my system is working fine but can't get an ADS-B report ????

The FAA reply refers me to the document about the FAA and Navworx debacle.

So there you have it from another Navworx dazed and confused customer

Bill
Click to expand...
 
Got a good report from my flight last night on a 600B-0013. I suspect you could select any system (instead of Navworx) and GPS source on the PAPRR screen, and the report wouldn't care. I'd bet the FAA only collects the make/model/gps source for building data, because I don't think the information is placed in the OUT stream.
 
Who Done It?

I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

"Please provide the Installer of your ADS-B OUT Equipment. ADS-B OUT Equipment Installer
*Installer Category:
Repair Shop
Airframe Powerplant Mechanic
Factory Installed
Self Installed - Experimental
Self Installed - Light Sport
Not Known
[*Denotes required input.]"

Repair Shop, Mechanic ask for State, City, and Shop/Mechanic name.

FWIW, my report came back No Exceptions, as usual.
 
keijidosha said:
I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

.....
Click to expand...

I did mine a few days ago and Dynon wasn't even in the pull-down list for the manufacturer...:rolleyes:
 
keijidosha said:
I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

"Please provide the Installer of your ADS-B OUT Equipment. ADS-B OUT Equipment Installer
*Installer Category:
Repair Shop
Airframe Powerplant Mechanic
Factory Installed
Self Installed - Experimental
Self Installed - Light Sport
Not Known
[*Denotes required input.]"

Repair Shop, Mechanic ask for State, City, and Shop/Mechanic name.

FWIW, my report came back No Exceptions, as usual.
Click to expand...
WAY before that point on the FAA page, you need to pick which ADS-B OUT Data link(s) you have. If you have a DYNON, select 1090ES which is what their transponder's frequency. THEN you can select DYNON under <MANUFACTURER>. DYNON does not manufacture a UAT unit so if you select that option, it doesn't show up.

REMEMBER the FAA is only interested in ADS-B OUT, they don't care about ADS-B IN.

:cool:
 
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If you're configuration is set to "anonymous " the FAA system can't find your record and will not generate a report.
Reconfigure to show your N number and you should get a report in minuets.
 
phobos_49 said:
If you're configuration is set to "anonymous " the FAA system can't find your record and will not generate a report.
Reconfigure to show your N number and you should get a report in minuets.
Click to expand...

Since he's talking about a mode S-ES transponder, "anonymous" is not an option.
 
Jarhead was correct.

My Navworx ADS600-EXP was in the stealth mode.

I had switched to that mode a few months ago and had forgotten about it.

Problem of no ADS-B reports, solved.

Bill
 
WOW, this thread has over 101,000 views and 475 posts in less than 7 months. :eek:
 
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Still no update on the actual AD since the 11th!

A lot of folks and a couple businesses are anxiously awaiting the government moving slower than the speed of smell!

Mine is still in for repair and I almost rather it stay there until after the AD comes out so my box would come back to me fully compliant - and functional!
 
AD Update

I just received a reply to my status email inquiry to David Hempe, the FAA contact listed under the AD status web page. It reads:

"We are completing the review of the Federal Register AD and plan to issue the document in the next couple of weeks. It has a few steps left inside the agency. Unfortunately, due to us being so close to the issuance on this rule I cannot provide you with more detailed information.

Sincerely, Dave"

By the way, my Navworx 600 B-EXP is installed and working great!! Sure hope I don't have to change anything.

Bob Cowan
RV-7A, IO 360, Hartzel Blended Airfoil,
 
Bob - thanks for the update!

Hopefully, once the AD is actually out, the mystery and uncertainty will be gone! Maybe then we'll see more activity from the NavWorx folks responding to our information and update requests!
 
So has anyone made sense of this yet? Or been able to reach anyone at Navworx or Dallas Avionics? From what I can tell, they are saying that there is a software update that will ONLY fix the problem UNTIL 2020. If you want your ADS600B to operate like it should after 2020 (ie what we paid for) you will have to send it in for an internal GPS upgrade at a cost of either $349 or $599...all this in addition to NOT being able to claim the $500 FAA rebate.

WOW - maybe I am misunderstanding what is written below. Someone please correct me and tell me this is not the case.



FROM THE NAVWORX WEBSITE:

Proposed FAA Airworthiness Directive: We are anticipating an FAA AD to be issued on existing ADS600-B Systems. Be assured we have taken steps to ensure seamless instructions for AD compliance. Upon issuance and review, NavWorx is prepared to release a new software revision which will allow for continued operation up to 2020. It is anticipated that the software update will not require removal of system components and can be completed by utilizing existing configuration computer port already installed in aircraft installation. As stated above, we have established an upgrade path for existing customers to upgrade to the new ADS600-B NexGen 2.0 System that will comply with FAA 2020 mandate.

ADS600-B Upgrade for 2020 Compliance: Upgrade of existing systems to include internal GPS upgrade.

Units with S/N 1602000 or earlier - List $ 599.00
Units with S,N 1602001 or later - List $ 349.00

Please Contact Scott Edwards to schedule your upgrade (upgrades begin in 7/1).

Technical and Sales Support: We are in the process of transferring all Technical and Sales support to Dallas Avionics, Inc. and will be able to accept new system, system upgrade/exchange orders by 5/1/17. Contact your local Dallas Avionics, Inc. sales representative for details or contact Scott Edwards (Dallas Avionics, Inc. Product Line specialist) at 214-668-7466 for all Technical or Sales inquiries. Certified Aircraft installation and new equipment sales will be managed through our established qualified dealer network (Refer to our dealer page for a contact near you).

We look forward to greeting everyone one at EAA Airventure 2017 Oshkosh Booth 4054
 
I'm expecting a savvy lawyer to grab the original advertisements, contact us and start a class action! That would take NavWorx down completely - which we don't want!

As much as I hate paying a second time for the functionality that I expected initially, The FAA did change the rules after the game started so NavWorx was operating in good faith!
 
The rules for 2020 haven't changed. Just the implementation date. I was promised a 2020 compliant box and depending on what is in the AD I might not have it. I ain't payin' another dime to NavWorx.
 
600B

I'll second that........ They're not getting another dime from me. I'll have a 600B with "certified" GPS on board with Transmon, GPS antenna, and TED antenna for sale. I've had it!!
 
I don't think its as bad as it sounds.

My interpretation is that the software update will guarantee that the unit will work until 2020, at which time you must use a certified GPS source.

You then have two options, use an external certified GPS source (i.e. GNS430, GTN650, etc.) or purchase the GPS upgrade from Navworx.


txshan130 said:
So has anyone made sense of this yet? Or been able to reach anyone at Navworx or Dallas Avionics? From what I can tell, they are saying that there is a software update that will ONLY fix the problem UNTIL 2020. If you want your ADS600B to operate like it should after 2020 (ie what we paid for) you will have to send it in for an internal GPS upgrade at a cost of either $349 or $599...all this in addition to NOT being able to claim the $500 FAA rebate.

WOW - maybe I am misunderstanding what is written below. Someone please correct me and tell me this is not the case.



FROM THE NAVWORX WEBSITE:

Proposed FAA Airworthiness Directive: We are anticipating an FAA AD to be issued on existing ADS600-B Systems. Be assured we have taken steps to ensure seamless instructions for AD compliance. Upon issuance and review, NavWorx is prepared to release a new software revision which will allow for continued operation up to 2020. It is anticipated that the software update will not require removal of system components and can be completed by utilizing existing configuration computer port already installed in aircraft installation. As stated above, we have established an upgrade path for existing customers to upgrade to the new ADS600-B NexGen 2.0 System that will comply with FAA 2020 mandate.

ADS600-B Upgrade for 2020 Compliance: Upgrade of existing systems to include internal GPS upgrade.

Units with S/N 1602000 or earlier - List $ 599.00
Units with S,N 1602001 or later - List $ 349.00

Please Contact Scott Edwards to schedule your upgrade (upgrades begin in 7/1).

Technical and Sales Support: We are in the process of transferring all Technical and Sales support to Dallas Avionics, Inc. and will be able to accept new system, system upgrade/exchange orders by 5/1/17. Contact your local Dallas Avionics, Inc. sales representative for details or contact Scott Edwards (Dallas Avionics, Inc. Product Line specialist) at 214-668-7466 for all Technical or Sales inquiries. Certified Aircraft installation and new equipment sales will be managed through our established qualified dealer network (Refer to our dealer page for a contact near you).

We look forward to greeting everyone one at EAA Airventure 2017 Oshkosh Booth 4054
Click to expand...
 
It is precisely as bad as it sounds. I paid for dual receivers and I paid for 2020 compliance. Anybody want an EXP?
 
Any speculation on how the AD may affect the 600EXP? All the comments have been very quite about what may happen with the EXP . Being a non TSOd unit for LSA and Exp, it will be interesting to see what the fate of this unit may be. AOPA comments for the AD were fairly direct in how the FAA could and could not address the non certified experimental device Anyone have any inside info?
 
DennisRhodes said:
Any speculation on how the AD may affect the 600EXP? All the comments have been very quite about what may happen with the EXP . Being a non TSOd unit for LSA and Exp, it will be interesting to see what the fate of this unit may be. AOPA comments for the AD were fairly direct in how the FAA could and could not address the non certified experimental device Anyone have any inside info?
Click to expand...


See my other post# 2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=149343&highlight=Navworx

Dallas Avionics believes there will be no action on the EXP boxes.
That is of the opinion of Scott Edwards.

Time will tell. Some say is only a few weeks away. I would think it will be settled before Oshkosh. I don't think Navworx will want to show up there without this issue being resolved.
 
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Got my unit back from repair yesterday - re-installed today.
Looks like it is functioning properly with the exception of display port 2 - which is a known software issue.

I guess we'll know more as we hear from others...and when the AD Actually comes out!
 
Lol...guess it depends on your outlook. My ADS600-B has already cost me the $500 rebate which I will not be getting.

I can't use the position output from my 430W as I can't get to the wiring bundle :-(

Anyone know if the position output from the GRT 2020 external GPS module can be used as an input to the ADS600-B?

Keeping my fingers crossed...

rleffler said:
I don't think its as bad as it sounds.

My interpretation is that the software update will guarantee that the unit will work until 2020, at which time you must use a certified GPS source.

You then have two options, use an external certified GPS source (i.e. GNS430, GTN650, etc.) or purchase the GPS upgrade from Navworx.
Click to expand...
 
If the output from the GRT box is ADSB+ which the GRT website says the GRT SafeFly is - you should be good to go!

Just remember, The FAA has already changed the rules once - which got us to where we currently are!
 
recapen said:
If the output from the GRT box is ADSB+ which the GRT website says the GRT SafeFly is - you should be good to go!

Just remember, The FAA has already changed the rules once - which got us to where we currently are!
Click to expand...

Nowhere does GRT say the output format is ADSB+. In fact it does not offer that option, which I believe is a proprietary Garmin code. The new GRT box outputs NMEA 0183 at 4.8k and 9.6k; and NexNav format at 38.4k ("NN33"). The NN33 can be used by the Trig TT22 and 31 transponders.
In addition, several manufacturers have told me that the FAA wants a statement from the manufacturer that their GPS box meets the TSO specs when paired with specific transmitters. GRT has such a statement in the manual for Trig transponders (TT21, 22, 31) and 'soon' for Sandia; plus the just announced Echo UAT. There is no statement for the NavWorx products.
 
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You are correct - Here's what is on their website...:

The GRT Safe-Fly is a 2020 ADS-B compliant GPS, allowing it to be used as the navigation source for your compatible ADS-B output. This full compliance with FAR 91.227 allows your ADS-B output to trigger the return of traffic data. This demanding standard requires a GPS that is reliable to better than one undetected failure per million hours, making it a natural as your navigation source for your GRT EFIS.
 
roadrunner20 said:
Dallas Avionics believes there will be no action on the EXP boxes.
That is of the opinion of Scott Edwards.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth (I know, its worth very little), I am of the same opinion as Scott.

After reading the docket comments on the NPRM, I think the FAA will quietly step back from doing anything about the EXP. (With the exception, of course, of forcing it out of new production.)

I believe this mainly because the exact same GPS that NavWorx used in that unit is also used in a whole series of name-brand products within the Experimental community. And the FAA has no stated intention of issuing a rule against any of those products.

Which again begs the question of why any of this heartburn was necessary in the first place, but I digress...

David
 
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If the FAA leaves the EXP units out of the AD, they are accepting Bill's premise of functionality over certification (and the initial reason for acceptance of the 012 and 013 units) - for the Experimental crowd!
 
Maybe.

Or maybe they're just accepting that publishing a rule (for failure to meet a certification standard) against a product that is not certified might be an endeavor that exposes certain thorns that are better left buried.

Especially in a time when the FAA is encouraging the use of non-certified products in certified aircraft.
 
Document dump on the NAVWORX AD this morning at

https://www.regulations.gov/docketBrowser?rpp=25&so=DESC&sb=postedDate&po=0&D=FAA-2016-9226

Includes the following items
U.S. DOT/FAA - Supporting AD Documents
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0207
Emergency Order of Suspension, NavWorx, Inc.
undefined Supporting & Related Material Posted:
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0208
Corrective Action Review Board Meeting Minutes
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0211
U.S. DOT/FAA - Supporting AD Documents
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0206
Safety Risk Management Document August 2014
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0210
Emergency Order of Suspension, NavWorx, Inc.
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0209
 
Looks like this is mostly supporting and background documentation from the FAA's side. Unless I'm mis-reading it, the broad emergency order of suspension has been lifted but there is still an Unapproved Parts Notification that is effective on the -0012 and -0013 units that use software version 4.0.6 (SIL 3) or any future software version that incorporates SIL 3.
 
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Looks like there was a recommendation to include the Experimental devices as well! Buried in one of these documents.
 
recapen said:
Looks like there was a recommendation to include the Experimental devices as well! Buried in one of these documents.
Click to expand...

There was an attempt to include the experimentals in the AD, but they can't do that, so the experimentals were covered under the Unapproved Parts issuance.
 
And the data dumps continue - more added today and possibly more coming.

As Paul Harvey would say - "The REST of the story" is now coming out. Reading the technical rationale behind the FAA's decision to TIS-B changes sheds some light on what happened, why, when, and who knew about it, and when. Some emails between NavWork and the FAA are also included, which gives some insight into the situation as well.
 
One of those e-mails details their expected customer blowback from the -12 and -13 units not being able to continue receiving TIS/FIS traffic due to the SIL requirement change...based on the expectation of reception due to functional compatibility instead of a compliance certification.
 
I am thankful to have my unit back and working - and that I installed it using a certified position source (430W).

Hopefully, all I get is updated software that transmits SIL0 when the internal (non-certified) GPS is used and SIL3 when connected to the 430W....and display port 2 fixed!
 
recapen said:
I am thankful to have my unit back and working - and that I installed it using a certified position source (430W).

Hopefully, all I get is updated software that transmits SIL0 when the internal (non-certified) GPS is used and SIL3 when connected to the 430W....and display port 2 fixed!
Click to expand...

Ralph,
Unfortunately, we who are using the 430W as a position source are still screwed. The AD is out. I don't know how many Navworx deceptions I can put up with (or afford). Here's the pertinent info about the 430W:

Some commenters stated or implied that other external GPS sources, such as the Garmin 530W, the Garmin GNS 430W, the Garmin GNS 480, and the Garmin GTN 650, are approved for installation in the ADS600-B. Contrary to any documentation these commenters may have from NavWorx, the only FAA-approved external GPS source is the Accord NexNav mini P/N 21000. Documentation of this is available for review in Docket No. FAA-2016-9226.
Click to expand...
 
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