Panel Layout Feedback

After much deliberation a few years scheming and brainstorming, I've finally collected all the components needed for an IFR panel upgrade and laid out full scale printouts on a fresh panel. Below I have taken pictures of the 2 configurations that I have come up with, considering aesthetics and functionality/ergonomics & human factors. I would like feedback on the two layouts concerning personal preference, required spacing between components for stiffness, rear panel bracing considerations, rear space interference with the 'Z bar,' and the best way to cut it out. As a note the 2 side panels will have switches for the mags, flaps, ignition, panel lighting rheostat and small annunciator panel which is not pictured.

The first layout I thought was most symmetrical in both the vertical and horizontal, but was really cramping the vertical space. What is the highest reccomended installation of standby instruments considering the 7/8'' or so mounting strip that spans the top of the panel? (ie do many cut into this strip?)



The second layout moves the engine information over to the left, near the throttles (against the convention, but maybe a good human factors thing) but would skew my crosscheck slightly. I think this layout is less symmetric and slightly less aesthetic but allows more space between the components for cutting, installation, and bracing.



I apologize for photo quality, they were taken from the phone and auto oriented themselves. As always I'm open to any suggestions and thanks for the feedback and advice.

What fun!

I think I'd want the flight instruments in front of the pilot. If the pilot's on the left, then I'd want the stuff used most for approach and climb on the upper left, near where the line of sight would be then.

I would never put a radio in front of the pilot, but I might place a GPS there.

Personally, and your own sense of things might be at odds with this, I'd follow the adage that form follows function. That is, appearance comes after safety and functionality. But it's not my airplane, it's yours, and you've got to be happy with it.

Dave

I presume this is an -8 so the EFIS is in front of the pilot...

Is that a Garmin 300? You mentioned ifr and annunciator lights. Look in the Garmin manual. I think there is a requirement for the annunciator lights to be within some specified distance from the pilot's centerline, e.g., the EFIS. Way off to the side may be too far away.

Do you show engine data on both the Dynon and the GRT EIS?

Having a fair amount of time in tandem seat military trainers, I would suggest anything you have to manipulate in flight - particularly in the terminal area, go on the left side. This way you can do so with your left hand, while the right hand remains on the stick. So, I would have NAV/COM on left. Probably GPS too. Transponder is required less, so right side is probably ok. Engine monitoring on right side too for the same reason. Primary flight instruments directly in front.

I would go with human factors reasons primarily, modified by the mounting practicalities.

RVZoomie said:

I apologize for photo quality, they were taken from the phone and auto oriented themselves. As always I'm open to any suggestions and thanks for the feedback and advice.

Click to expand...

Use the edit features in Photobucket to rotate the pics...

After several attemps to post the rotated pics, they still are posting vertical even though they are 'righted' on the host website. The panel is for my RV-8, hope that clears up some of the confusion. The consensus between my sqn buddies and I was that the pilot should be proficient enough both in formation and regular flying to use either hand on the stick but I agree placing the radio stack on the LH side would better facilitate nav/radio actions. It is a G300XL, which is TSO'd but my research indicates that the specific annunciator and location is only applicable to certified aircraft. I plan on making a 'homeade' annun panel with items such as pitot heat, EIS, boost pump etc. Also I have a dynon D-100 so engine info is only on the EIS. Any suggestions in regards to cut out spacing and back bracing? Do people cut through parts of the attachment border along the top for spacing issues? Thanks again.

I have flown plenty of formation in tandem trainers and side by side trainers/transport aircraft. I am happy to fly form with left or right hand. That is an entirely different scenario, however, to forcing yourself to swap hands on the stick or reach over to the right side of the panel with your left hand. If your cockpit is set up for right hand on stick and left on throttle, the it makes sense to organise your panel such that the appropriate device is located in a location such that the appropriate hand can operate it safely and efficiently. If you were setting up an RV 7 panel rather than an RV 8, it would therefore be appropriate to set up the radio stack above the throttle and mixture in the centre of the panel.

Here is a link to a T6 panel that shows a logical single seat panel layout...

http://www.t6driver.com/Pictures/t6panel.jpg

I have a good bit of time behind the Dynon stuff you want to use and here is my suggestion.

Dump the steam gauges, you don’t need them. (When I re-did my panel, I removed them and don’t miss ‘em)

Dump the Engine Information System, the D180 has all those function and more. Heck, it even records it all for analysis later. That and you may have some issues with both the D180 and the EIS pulling data from the same systems.

If you are thinking that you are worried about redundant systems, it is highly unlikely that your D180 will go south at the same time as your engine. You will be able to get on the ground and figure out any issues with the engine probes.

I didn’t install any trim indicators in my plane and don’t miss them. It is not like you can’t over power the controls if you trim isn’t set correctly. Keep it simple and light.

Also if you drop the D180 and go to the SkyView, you can forgo the transponder and a few other things, like the trim indicator because they are built in.

You didn't say if you wanted to go IFR or VFR. If VFR, all you need is the 496. I've been all over the place with nothing but the 496 and it is still a great GPS! If you are going IFR, then all bets are off but I would look for a good used 430W.

N941WR said:

... Dump the steam gauges, you don?t need them. (When I re-did my panel, I removed them and don?t miss ?em) ...

Click to expand...

On what basis? Can you elaborate? It seems that the steam gauges are his backup flight instruments in case the Dynon fails in IMC.

N941WR said:

... You didn't say if you wanted to go IFR or VFR. ...

Click to expand...

He did say in the original post: IFR.

I have some pretty fond memories of the T-6, I will most likely be placing the radio stack on the left and the 396 and EIS on the right which it sounds like you prefer. The purpose of replacing the current VFR panel is to enable IFR capability, between the SL-30 and the 300XL I believe I should be well equipped. I'm keeping the 'steam' gauges not out of coincidence; in several years of flying I've had to rely on old school standby ADI's due to losing newer milspec & emp hardened glass. I only have a D-100 so the EIS is my only source of engine info at this time. There are several other more expensive routes for this panel upgrade, but I tried to keep the budget in mind and reuse as many existing parts as possible. I'm really looking for some spatial arrangement suggestions due to mounting considerations.

Radio stack

I second the comments on placing the radio stack on the left for easy manipulation with the non-flying hand.

I also suggest re-ordering the radio stack as follows, from top to bottom:

Reasoning:

Yea I was actually going to organize the stack vertically the same way as you mentioned, I had a friend print out the full scale pics for sizing and told him I was going to group those items together so he randomly threw them together on the printout.

That EIS is using a whole lotta panel real estate to show just 6 numbers. The rectangular form factor makes it difficult to place. Advice: Dump it.

Agreed, however it's already paid for (reusing it from the current panel) and an EMS-D10 is $1700 plus probes. Addtionally, a lot less space is taken up than all steam gauges. Like I said, the panel upgrade is a compromise of function and budget.

roee said:

On what basis? Can you elaborate? It seems that the steam gauges are his backup flight instruments in case the Dynon fails in IMC.

He did say in the original post: IFR.

Click to expand...

I was thinking VFR panel. I read that post three times last night and missed the IFR part. Also, it is very unlikely that the Dynon will fail.

In that case, I would sell the EIS and buy a D100 EFIS, D10 EMS, and D1 Pocket Panel from Dynon.

The D1 is a great backup and will keep the oily side down, if you have a problem with your electrical system. The battery is good for 4+ hours and the thing just simply works. (Full disclosure - I was a beta tester for this thing and couldn't trip it up.)

If you go with the D100 EFIS you can display the artificial horizon and HSI on the same screen while the D10 is displaying your engine info.

If you stay with the D180, you can still display the HSI in place of the engine info and it will still monitor the engine data in the background. Should an engine parameter go out of bounds, the D180 will alarm.

In addition to all that, you can display the glideslope and CDI on the artificial horizon display, so you may not need the HSI display at all.

If you are intent on keeping your EIS, then save yourself some $$$ and just put in a D100 and let your old EIS manage the engine and keep the EFIS for flight and nav info only.

Designing panels is a blast, so many options! (and opinions)

Mark,
Here is a link to my Photo bucket account that has a lot of pictures of my panel as it evolved. It has a lot of similar instruments you are looking for. I purchased the plane with a very basic panel. Through the years I made 4 changes to the panel and it is set up for IF. Everyone has there own opinion but I like my steam gauges and the EIS, if you notice I have a slave unit in the lower panel. The more info you can display without changing screens the better I like it.
http://s146.beta.photobucket.com/us.../4032Q?&_suid=1361455656501005919850377106739

Panel layout feedback

There are some basic norms with instrument configuration, airspeed is always on the left, altimeter is always on the right, your pictures show the opposite.

I totally agree with the other comments about proper ergonomic cockpit layouts in a tandem aircraft. It's pretty straightforward, you fly with your right hand, you want it to always be on the stick. Your left (throttle) hand is the most free, items that require constant attention should be located on the left side to the extent possible. Comm radio, GPS controls, etc.

Jim Gray
www.rmrairshows.com

RVZoomie said:

After several attemps to post the rotated pics, they still are posting vertical even though they are 'righted' on the host website. The panel is for my RV-8, hope that clears up some of the confusion. The consensus between my sqn buddies and I was that the pilot should be proficient enough both in formation and regular flying to use either hand on the stick but I agree placing the radio stack on the LH side would better facilitate nav/radio actions. It is a G300XL, which is TSO'd but my research indicates that the specific annunciator and location is only applicable to certified aircraft. I plan on making a 'homeade' annun panel with items such as pitot heat, EIS, boost pump etc. Also I have a dynon D-100 so engine info is only on the EIS. Any suggestions in regards to cut out spacing and back bracing? Do people cut through parts of the attachment border along the top for spacing issues? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

I believe the EFIS will count as the annunciator lights. One thing I found out as I was doing my research, you do need to have an ARINC interface for the GPS, not just serial. This is required because auto-scaling of the CDI on approaches is required.

N941WR said:

I have a good bit of time behind the Dynon stuff you want to use and here is my suggestion.

Dump the steam gauges, you don?t need them. (When I re-did my panel, I removed them and don?t miss ?em)

Dump the Engine Information System, the D180 has all those function and more. Heck, it even records it all for analysis later. That and you may have some issues with both the D180 and the EIS pulling data from the same systems.

If you are thinking that you are worried about redundant systems, it is highly unlikely that your D180 will go south at the same time as your engine. You will be able to get on the ground and figure out any issues with the engine probes.

I didn?t install any trim indicators in my plane and don?t miss them. It is not like you can?t over power the controls if you trim isn?t set correctly. Keep it simple and light.

Also if you drop the D180 and go to the SkyView, you can forgo the transponder and a few other things, like the trim indicator because they are built in.

You didn't say if you wanted to go IFR or VFR. If VFR, all you need is the 496. I've been all over the place with nothing but the 496 and it is still a great GPS! If you are going IFR, then all bets are off but I would look for a good used 430W.

Click to expand...

Or you could use a GRT EFIS instead of a Dynon.

Panel

[/URL]

For what it is worth

TruTrak Gemini PFD?

How about a TruTrak Gemini PFD to combine ALL your standby instruments into one? Aircraft Spruce has them for around $1200, which is probably less than what you would pay for all your separate standby instruments. Saves a whole lot of real estate. That's what I'm installing in my -8 with the Dynon 180. Wire it up on the "E" bus as described in the Aeroelectric book, and the 180 on the main bus and you'll be all set.
P.S. Check your Dynon install manual. You can wire your trim indicators for display on your 180.

I appreciated all the feedback, just to reiterate: All the components shown have been purchased or are already existing in the current VFR panel in the -8 therefore I will not be purchasing more equipment. For layout, I will keep convention (in contrast to pictures shown) with radio stack on the left and arrange AS and ALT according to convention as well. Are there any general builders guidelines to how closely I can mount one component to another and not worry about rigidity of the panel under G's etc? Any considerations for adding stiffners or bracing for the trays? Thanks again

IFR ????

I would not fly IFR with that panel as configured.
I would use a 430W, AFS EFIS, and Gemini BU

The panel as illustrated has too many cut corners to
fly in the clouds...
JMHO
Jim Frisbie
RV-9A

Another opinion

* Keep the steam gauges, they're easier to read in a hurry when you don't have any idea what the tapes are going to tell you.
* Airspeed goes on the left normally
* Symmetry buys you nothing and is a false god
* Right hand on the stick -- I agree, sort of. Make sure that you can manipulate your avionics without blocking the screen with your hand. For avionics that involve lots of inputs but are done infrequently, you might well put those on your right hand.
* The all-digital readout engine monitor may take some getting used to compared to needles which are labeled and have scales.
* You'll get more opinions on this topic than you probably wanted. Hopefully a few of them will make sense.

Ed

All, thank you for the layout pointers. I believe I have settled on an arrangement.

Jim F said:

I would not fly IFR with that panel as configured.
I would use a 430W, AFS EFIS, and Gemini BU

Click to expand...

I was curious as to what about the current equipment configuration was deemed unacceptable for IFR, can you point out the potential failure points you see that would be rectified with previously mentioned equipment?

Between the SL30 and the 3000XL I have nearly the same capability as the 430w except my approach minima is 100' higher as well as a net savings of $5k. I've been through IMC at 500 kias in a T-38A (tacan only) which had less instrumentation than your average 1950s cessna. True, with an endless budget anything can be done. While nothing in aviation is 'cheap' I wasn't aware of an entry fee to the IFR NAS, if it can be accomplished safely and responsibly for a lower cost why not?

If I come across stern, it is because I would like to disspell the conventional wisdom circulating that you 'need' the latest, greatest, and most expensive to penetrate IMC.

My 2 cents

RVZoomie said:

After much deliberation a few years scheming and brainstorming, I've finally collected all the components needed for an IFR panel upgrade and laid out full scale printouts on a fresh panel. Below I have taken pictures of the 2 configurations that I have come up with, considering aesthetics and functionality/ergonomics & human factors. I would like feedback on the two layouts concerning personal preference, required spacing between components for stiffness, rear panel bracing considerations, rear space interference with the 'Z bar,' and the best way to cut it out. As a note the 2 side panels will have switches for the mags, flaps, ignition, panel lighting rheostat and small annunciator panel which is not pictured.

The first layout I thought was most symmetrical in both the vertical and horizontal, but was really cramping the vertical space. What is the highest reccomended installation of standby instruments considering the 7/8'' or so mounting strip that spans the top of the panel? (ie do many cut into this strip?)

The second layout moves the engine information over to the left, near the throttles (against the convention, but maybe a good human factors thing) but would skew my crosscheck slightly. I think this layout is less symmetric and slightly less aesthetic but allows more space between the components for cutting, installation, and bracing.

I apologize for photo quality, they were taken from the phone and auto oriented themselves. As always I'm open to any suggestions and thanks for the feedback and advice.

Click to expand...

FWIW:

1 - "Steam Guages" Put the ASI on the left, Altimeter on the right.
2 - Left side = Audio Panel on top, Radio just below it, GPS under the Radio, Transponder on the bottom.
3 - Right side = Garmin X96 on top, EMS under it.

This assumes you will be using the Garmin X96 only for "situation awareness".