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Tail Wheel Miss-adventure

David-aviator

Well Known Member
Tail wheel operations definitely is not like riding a bicycle.

The weather this summer has been unsettled; lots of cloudy, windy, rainy days, not conducive to routine local flight at all.

I did get off yesterday after a 12 day hiatus and returned with a firm determination to do it again ASAP. A self critique revealed landings were not good and even one take off was below par. So what's going on? Two weeks ago I was flying 3 and 4 days in a row, just short fights, and felt quite comfortable. Not yesterday.

Lack of TW experience is a factor but so is lack of attention to detail, especially addressing known bad habits. The worst is flaring too high and searching for the runway. On one take off, the airplane self launched crossing a hump at an intersection with another runway. That was exciting for a few moments as the airplane was hung on the prop at about 55 knots. I should have slow taxied across that hump or crossed it with forward stick, which can be dicey at low speed.

The only good news is there were no bounces. I've learned to forward stick it even after the worst search for the runway landing. That saved it but is totally unacceptable.

Practice, practice as Van advised flying the RV years ago. It is so true.

There is a pilot skill range in this business and it behooves each of us to determine where we fit and deal with it. Even the best of the best, like Sean Tucker, practice, practice what they do. It is a part of what we do.

Most experienced TW guys do not have to practice landings, but I do. The flying part is fun, the landing part is a constant challenge.
 
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I have over 1500 hours tail wheel and I still practice, quite often.
Sounds like you are wheeling it on primarily. I would encourage you to focus on three points. I know quite a few new tail wheel folks that feel more comfortable flying it on than doing a full stall landing. Make sure good three pointers are in your tool box!
 
Ask...

Just ask the tower folks at KLHW...They would swear all I ever do is practice TO/LDGs. In reality the airport is right outside my work so it makes for easy short hops. Keep at it!
 
One thing that I have found helpful for three points is to flare, get proper tail low attitude and then try NOT to land the plane. Use minor elevator movements to keep the plane off the runway but as close to the runway as you can. Eventually you will run out of airspeed and it will settle nicely to the ground. The higher your speed at flare, the more difficult it is going to be to nail the landing. Floating over the runway for a while lets you bleed off this speed. With practice you can reduce your landing speed at the flare to control the float time and reduce the landing distance required. Practice Not landing and see if it helps.
 
That was exciting for a few moments as the airplane was hung on the prop at about 55 knots. I should have slow taxied across that hump or crossed it with forward stick, which can be dicey at low speed.

Though if you go to altitude, and really see how slowly the airplane will fly with FULL throttle (maintaining altitude), you'll see that you weren't really close to stalling the airplane - especially in ground effect.
 
One thing that I have found helpful for three points is to flare, get proper tail low attitude and then try NOT to land the plane. Use minor elevator movements to keep the plane off the runway but as close to the runway as you can. Eventually you will run out of airspeed and it will settle nicely to the ground. The higher your speed at flare, the more difficult it is going to be to nail the landing. Floating over the runway for a while lets you bleed off this speed. With practice you can reduce your landing speed at the flare to control the float time and reduce the landing distance required. Practice Not landing and see if it helps.

Thinking about it, this is actually a logical advice but never looked at it this way. Thanks for sharing!
 
I've found that mental attitude is a big factor. If I'm distracted, fatigued or unenthusiastic, that shows up in my tailwheel skills, esp if I'm trying to do *perfect* landings.
 
Lots of good points expressed here, something to work on so as not be bored with flying. :)

Now if it would stop raining. My former home, the Troy Airpark about 35 miles north, has had 13" of rain since last Sunday. The airpark is ok, it is plenty high and well drained but all the roads getting there are flooded, the second time this week.

Its beginning to look like '93 when St. Louis last flooded. An occluded front is lying across the state NE to SW and it is not moving.
 
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...Most experienced TW guys do not have to practice landings, but I do. The flying part is fun, the landing part is a constant challenge.

I have over 1500 hours tail wheel and I still practice, quite often.
Sounds like you are wheeling it on primarily. I would encourage you to focus on three points. I know quite a few new tail wheel folks that feel more comfortable flying it on than doing a full stall landing. Make sure good three pointers are in your tool box!

I'm with JJ on this one! I too practice landings. Sometimes it might just be at the end of a trip and I wasn't happy with my landing so I'll do three quick circuits before heading to the barn.

A friend once told me on Base to sit up, wiggle the rudders, and say out loud, "I am landing a taildragger, pay attention!"

I've gotten to the point that I don't worry about the crosswinds any more but I must admit, it has taken me a LONG time to get to that point and I wouldn't have it any other way!
 
I have over 1500 hours tail wheel and I still practice, quite often.
Sounds like you are wheeling it on primarily. I would encourage you to focus on three points. I know quite a few new tail wheel folks that feel more comfortable flying it on than doing a full stall landing. Make sure good three pointers are in your tool box!

Three pointers in the tool box?

I do quite well 3 pointing a Citabria. But in the 8 a 3 point landing is no where near stalled or ready to quit flying. What is the point of landing like that? If one goes for a stall landing, the tail wheel touches first. What is the point of landing like that?

Wolfgang Langewiesche was right in "Stick and Rudder", there is a better way to land an airplane than stalling it in or 3 pointing it.

His take on wheel landings is a good read. It was written at a time when most airplanes were tail draggers. He felt the stall landing was out of control and unsafe. What has changed that makes 3 pointing so important today vrs in 1944? I don't get it.

What I know for sure is the 8 feels better wheel landing than attempting to stall it in or 3 pointing it. That is my experience.

The Citabria feels great 3 pointing it, the RV-8 does not.

That's not to say I won't try 3 pointing the 8 again, I don't give up easy. :)
 
If one goes for a stall landing, the tail wheel touches first. What is the point of landing like that?

"Full stall" landing is a misnomer. Very few tailwheel airplanes are stalled in a 3-point attitude - mostly the bush type planes with big bushwheels, giving them a steep deck angle. Standard J-3's and Stearmans come very close. RVs and many others do not.

Wolfgang Langewiesche was right in "Stick and Rudder", there is a better way to land an airplane than stalling it in or 3 pointing it.

He wasn't right about that. Too many variables associated with aircraft type and/or conditions to make a right or wrong statements. If your airplane is not well suited to 3-pointers and they offer no utility, don't do them other than for the helluvit if you want. Other airplanes are not well-suited for wheel landings. Whatever gets the job done.

He felt the stall landing was out of control and unsafe.

I like Langeweische's work, but that is utterly silly.
 
Three pointers in the tool box?

I do quite well 3 pointing a Citabria. But in the 8 a 3 point landing is no where near stalled or ready to quit flying. What is the point of landing like that? If one goes for a stall landing, the tail wheel touches first. What is the point of landing like that?

What I know for sure is the 8 feels better wheel landing than attempting to stall it in or 3 pointing it. That is my experience.

The Citabria feels great 3 pointing it, the RV-8 does not.

That's not to say I won't try 3 pointing the 8 again, I don't give up easy. :)

I share your views David.

I'm a new pilot and had to go to Benson Arizona to pickup the RV-8 I purchased. I tried to three point land it like I was taught in the RV-7 during my transition training. Boy did I get surprised. I spent three very frustrating days scaring myself. My confidence was so shaken. Then I read every post on these two VAF threads:

"Landing an RV-8"
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=16788

"RV-8 Wheel Landing...."
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=114600

On that third day I began making tail wheel low wheel landings. What an amazing difference.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. Helped to make me a more confident and competent RV-8 driver.
 
Tail Low Wheel Landings

FWIW:

I was almost exclusively a 3 point landing guy until I got checked out in a t/w aircraft by the CAF.

The check pilot drove home the point that the AAF reduced their landing accident rate by ~65% when they went from 3 point landings to the tail low wheel landing method.

Since then, I land almost exclusively with a tail low wheel landing unless I have a reason not to.

Whatever you choose, stay within your limits and the airplane's limits.
 
Weather improved, flew today, 3 decent landings. :)

Life is good....but sad to see so much water everywhere after so much rain this past week. Some people have a mess to deal with. Lots of farm land will not produce this year. Ducks and geese are happy.

River patrol revealed no terrorist subs or surface boats...I keep a close eye out for the sneaky rats.

The 8 is flying great! The Wright Brothers would have liked it.....reading the latest book about their life, they were remarkable.
 
get proper tail low attitude and then try NOT to land the plane.

Agree with Tom. As I tell my students, set and hold the attitude and let the ground come to plane!
 
It doesn't bother me very much, but I am kind of mystified by the streaks. Lately I am on a streak of thumping it in with my customary 3 pointers in the RV-6. It is a matter of being a few inches off in the judgment. I just plow ahead and never apologize to the passengers. I don't apologize because I think it isn't very important.

I had an airline pilot friend back in the B727 days. He talked about how you could make all kind of good judgments, navigate around every thunderstorm in the country and what you were judged by was the unimportant detail of how smooth the landing was.

That being said, today I was only off a couple of inches in the height calculation and it was a lot more fun schumping on rather than thumping on.

Occasionally I can pull off a wheel landing but I don't really like them. I have full stalled the 6 on and that is very very ugly indeed.
 
Young Tailwheel Pilot

Some days after not flying for a while I seem to grease the 3pt landings. Though now I've been mostly wheel landing in the 8. I usually talk myself through every landing like "little more power, hold it, etc" Some times with full flaps, I don't adjust the trim enough and bounce. I have to get that feeling of an aft CG where the plane wants to lift the nose a tad, if I want to do a 3pt.

In my 8 I usually keep 9-10in of manifold for wheel landings, and for 3pt I try to keep that same power till I have the runway made, then cut power, let the plane float low to the ground and almost let it fly itself to the runway. It all depends on speed for each as well. 3pt. I like to keep around 75knots indicated on short final and let the speed die off as I ease off the power and let the wheels touch.

Then for wheel landings I usually do about the same speed. Anything greater and I get the tendency to bounce or sometimes shake the gear. All comes down to a stable approach, airspeed, and height judgement. And keep those feet working softly.

Honestly I've been told that in a 3pt, if crosswind isn't bad, you can land and not use the rudder in the 8. I sometimes over correct and came close to losing it a few times. Scared me, but we all learn from our mistakes. If the landing isn't good just go around. I sometimes add power, pop back up, and try for a second go if I have a large runway.

I have fully 3pt stalled it once. Thankfully I was a few inches off the ground and she settled nicely. felt the whole buffet and all. Has anyone flown an 8 in a 17knot crosswind or more? Ive done 16 and that was a handful.

As they say "A good landing is one you can walk away from." I always strive to grease my landings, and every landing is different so keep up the work! I've only got 100 tailwheel time, but can't wait to start a long cross country nationwide!
 
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If you can master a tail low minimum airspeed wheel landing, stick it on the mark, and roll it up, no worries. However, that is not what I see most newbies doing. They fly it on with excess airspeed keeping power in until they find the runway and then chop the throttle once they stick it on. Sloppy and inconsistent touch down and roll out distance follows.
Our strip is 2000' with 50' trees on each end. Don't try wheelies here unless you know how to do them well or you will be screeching and smoking tires.

Also, you may find yourself in conditions that don't suit keeping your tail in the air. Locking tail wheels where invented for a reason and they don't do you any good with your tail in the air. If all you have in that tool box are wheelies and you get stuck with a severe gusty cross wind or a cross quartering tailwind, you will want to feel comfortable with three pointing even if they aren't very pretty. Put the stick in you lap and keep it straight and all will be forgiven.

My two cents, and that's all it is worth!

(by the way, none of the high time 8 pilots I know wheel it on at our home field)
 
So I needed to fly the RV-8 to a grass strip *today* to get the condition inspection done. Since major surgery seven months ago, my flying has been working its way back up to proficiency:
* A half dozen flights in the right seat of my beautiful old Cessna 175 in preparation to check out the new owner (I'm a CFII)
* A half dozen flights in my new (to me) RV-9A, and those flights have been, uh, interesting because of unfamiliar and complex glass cockpit instrumentation, idle speed too high so the plane doesn't slow down, and high cylinder head temperatures.
* One quick flight, one very good landing in the RV-8.

With a small line of thunderstorms coming, and the possibility of lots of crosswinds, I headed out on the 20 mile X-C to a narrow grass strip with trees at one end. The RV-8 interior smelled good, being in the airplane made me feel good, even the bumps in the turbulence felt good.

Base was at a 60 degree angle to the runway to avoid the highest trees, with a low altitude turn to align with the runway. As I straightened out, I had extra descent rate that I checked with power, and the landing and rollout were right on centerline, at least, until the tail came down.

The positive contributing factors:
* Lots of experience over my flying career
* Recent experience in the RV-9A. It doesn't fly much like the RV-8, but the act of conscientiously flying with precision carried over in a big way
* Good feel for the RV-8. Some of that was airplane, some was me
* Feeling good about the flight and having my head in the game
 
So I needed to fly the RV-8 to a grass strip *today* to get the condition inspection done. Since major surgery seven months ago, my flying has been working its way back up to proficiency:
* A half dozen flights in the right seat of my beautiful old Cessna 175 in preparation to check out the new owner (I'm a CFII)
* A half dozen flights in my new (to me) RV-9A, and those flights have been, uh, interesting because of unfamiliar and complex glass cockpit instrumentation, idle speed too high so the plane doesn't slow down, and high cylinder head temperatures.
* One quick flight, one very good landing in the RV-8.

With a small line of thunderstorms coming, and the possibility of lots of crosswinds, I headed out on the 20 mile X-C to a narrow grass strip with trees at one end. The RV-8 interior smelled good, being in the airplane made me feel good, even the bumps in the turbulence felt good.

Base was at a 60 degree angle to the runway to avoid the highest trees, with a low altitude turn to align with the runway. As I straightened out, I had extra descent rate that I checked with power, and the landing and rollout were right on centerline, at least, until the tail came down.

The positive contributing factors:
* Lots of experience over my flying career
* Recent experience in the RV-9A. It doesn't fly much like the RV-8, but the act of conscientiously flying with precision carried over in a big way
* Good feel for the RV-8. Some of that was airplane, some was me
* Feeling good about the flight and having my head in the game

I one upped ya today! I got my BFR in Scotty's PA-16 Clipper...and I am not tail wheel "rated"....nor was I current, in fact I have less than 5 hours and 20 landings since I sold my airplane a year ago. I only scared my instructor once :D.
After getting some time in the Clipper, I cannot imagine the -8 or the -7 being that big of a deal. Can't wait to finish Scott's -7 and try out my theory.
 
Mike, you're always one upping me. However, I've got more hardware in my back than you do, and that's one record you do NOT want to take from me, believe me.
 
Mike, you're always one upping me. However, I've got more hardware in my back than you do, and that's one record you do NOT want to take from me, believe me.

You can keep all the excess titaniuim and cobalt chromiuim steel parts:eek: I feel for you brother.
 
So I needed to fly the RV-8 to a grass strip *today* to get the condition inspection done. Since major surgery seven months ago, my flying has been working its way back up to proficiency:
* A half dozen flights in the right seat of my beautiful old Cessna 175 in preparation to check out the new owner (I'm a CFII)
* A half dozen flights in my new (to me) RV-9A, and those flights have been, uh, interesting because of unfamiliar and complex glass cockpit instrumentation, idle speed too high so the plane doesn't slow down, and high cylinder head temperatures.
* One quick flight, one very good landing in the RV-8.

With a small line of thunderstorms coming, and the possibility of lots of crosswinds, I headed out on the 20 mile X-C to a narrow grass strip with trees at one end. The RV-8 interior smelled good, being in the airplane made me feel good, even the bumps in the turbulence felt good.

Base was at a 60 degree angle to the runway to avoid the highest trees, with a low altitude turn to align with the runway. As I straightened out, I had extra descent rate that I checked with power, and the landing and rollout were right on centerline, at least, until the tail came down.

The positive contributing factors:
* Lots of experience over my flying career
* Recent experience in the RV-9A. It doesn't fly much like the RV-8, but the act of conscientiously flying with precision carried over in a big way
* Good feel for the RV-8. Some of that was airplane, some was me
* Feeling good about the flight and having my head in the game

Ed the 8 always feels good to me even when I screw it up landing. I know its me and not the airplane, it is so honest and straight forward a flying machine.

Grass is great for TW ops, it is forgiving, hard surface is never forgiving.

Good to hear your head is back in the game. I have to fly frequently to keep mine their, got a couple decent landings lately, that always validates where you are at. Flew a little rain yesterday to remove the bugs, it was fun.

The airplane is grounded this week, need to send the fly wheel to Robert Paisley for the beginning of the EI install. Will get on that project toward the end of July, meanwhile 4 brothers and I are meeting in Alaska for some salmon fishing, story telling and an evening beer or two. Two of them live up near Wasilla so we have a base of operations. :)
 
I share your views David.

I'm a new pilot and had to go to Benson Arizona to pickup the RV-8 I purchased. I tried to three point land it like I was taught in the RV-7 during my transition training. Boy did I get surprised. I spent three very frustrating days scaring myself. My confidence was so shaken. Then I read every post on these two VAF threads:

"Landing an RV-8"
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=16788

"RV-8 Wheel Landing...."
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=114600

On that third day I began making tail wheel low wheel landings. What an amazing difference.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. Helped to make me a more confident and competent RV-8 driver.

I had the exact same experience when transitioning to my RV-8. Now I wheel land it and am much happier with the results.
 
One of my neighbors, a high time tail wheel and multi RV8 builder and pilot with over 1000 hours on his RV8 was having some issues with directional control on his three pointers and when lowering the tail from a wheelie. He could handle it but knew it wasn't quite right. He spent many, many hours diagnosing the issue and ended up correcting the behavior with appropriate shimming. I am sorry, but I do not know the details but will try to download from him.
Point being, perhaps something other than skill, like misaligned gear is contributing to the problem. If I was having so much trouble I couldn't execute either type of landing well, I would call on an experienced RV8 pilot to go fly my machine and tell me if it feels right. If they gave it the thumbs up, then you have a base point to work from.
 
One of my neighbors, a high time tail wheel and multi RV8 builder and pilot with over 1000 hours on his RV8 was having some issues with directional control on his three pointers and when lowering the tail from a wheelie. He could handle it but knew it wasn't quite right. He spent many, many hours diagnosing the issue and ended up correcting the behavior with appropriate shimming. I am sorry, but I do not know the details but will try to download from him.
Point being, perhaps something other than skill, like misaligned gear is contributing to the problem. If I was having so much trouble I couldn't execute either type of landing well, I would call on an experienced RV8 pilot to go fly my machine and tell me if it feels right. If they gave it the thumbs up, then you have a base point to work from.

I had the exact same issue. When I installed the gear, I ended up with 0.2 degrees tow in, which I figured was pretty darn close to the "neutral" alignment that the plans call out. After two dozen or so landings, I also felt that the plane felt just a tad squirrely (though controllable) when setting the tail wheel down. I went ahead and installed 1/2 degree axle shims which resulted in .2-.3 degrees tow out. This resulted in an enormous improvement in stability!

Skylor
 
Dr. Ed makes a good point about where you are "mentally" on certain days.
I learned to fly in a Luscombe. That was early 70's and even then people were afraid of the Luscombe since it had that ground looping reputation. Jump forward a few decades, after "working" in planes like the Beaver, Super Cub, Cessna 195 etc. I still love wheel landings. I added the ski plane gear modification to my most recent Luscombe. It allowed cross wind landings riding wing high on one wheel. Without risk of collapsing the gear. What a hoot.
Adding a Robinson helo rating showed me what Ed is talking about. Coming to the flight with any muscle tension, or mental tension... was clearly obvious in the quality of the hovering. I think down hill skiers experience this too. Ever noticed how experienced helo pilots are pretty mellow and rarely stressed.
(Well, until the weather goes to **** or they get to practice a real auto)
Practice is fun and valuable. Reading forums can add insight. But the best bet is to find a CFI that is proficient in YOUR plane... and go out to see what tricks you can add to the bag. And don't fear the gusty winds... just learn to dance.
 
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