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AFS 5600 x Dynon Skyview

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cristianomc

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All right guys... I know it?s a matter of personal needs, but I?d like to "hear" your opinios on this. Which one to choose: Advanced Flight System AF-5600 or Dynon Skyview to work together the avionics below (TruTrak will be excluded if choosing Dynon):


1- Garmin SL-30 NAV/COM
2- L3 Stormscope WX-500 (this is a must in Brazil)
3- Aspen EDF 1000 Pro (need this to get IFR certification in Brazil)
4- Garmin GTN-750 GPS/NAV/COM
5- Garmin GTS-800 TAS (2 ant.) (this is a must in Brazil)
6- PS Engineering Audio Panel PMA-8000BT
7- Garmin GTX-32
8- Garmin GMA-35 Audio Panel
9- Vertical Power VP-X
10- Trutrak Sorcerer AS Auto Pilot
11- Trutrak Yaw Damper + servo
12- Trutrak Autotrim

I?ll fly IFR aproaches and would like a capable, reliable, supportable in Brazil, and easy to use EFIS, but want one of theese two.

Thank you all!
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Cristian---(at least I hope that is your name)---welcome to VAF.

Both of the companies you mentioned frequent the site, so hopefully you will get some direct info from them.

What model are you building??

Good to have you here:D
 
Having done a ton of research on all the EFIS systems available... I'd go with the AFS.

Question though, if you're already putting in the Aspen unit why not just go with their full package?
 
All right guys... I know it?s a matter of personal needs, but I?d like to "hear" your opinios on this. Which one to choose: Advanced Flight System AF-5600 or Dynon Skyview to work together the avionics below (TruTrak will be excluded if choosing Dynon):

I?ll fly IFR aproaches and would like a capable, reliable, supportable in Brazil, and easy to use EFIS, but want one of theese two.

Thank you all!

The user interface on the 5600 is clearly easier to use. Having more buttons eliminates traversing the traditional nested menus.

Normally, I wouldn't recommend taking into consideration future features and I won't got into them here either, But I will mention that I believe 5600 takes the lead here too. Both companies had a mixed experience with promised deliverables, but Rob and company seem to be delivering very consistently the last year or so.

You may also want to consider the AFS-AP. It will save you a few dollars as opposed to the Sourcerer. The Sourcerer has more standalone capabilities, but those differences are compensated with the AFS-AP integration with the EFIS.

You mention that Trutrak would be excluded if you choose Skyview. Since you mentioned IFR, I am not a proponent of having the AP integrated into the EFIS. If the EFIS dies or has a software glitch, I want the AP to keep the wings level to buy some thinking time to react to the situation.
 
No brainer - AFS. Rob does a huge amount of integration testing to make sure his equipment works properly with the avionics that you list. The integration with a TT autopilot is also very good. AP separate from the EFIS gives much better redundancy.

Pete
 
The original poster here has an Aspen and a GTN-750 in the panel. So it's really a question of what he wants an experimental EFIS for at all?

Aspen does a PFD and SynVis.
The GTN does all mapping and approach plates. Does the owner want to pay for data twice in the plane? Data isn't free in Brazil, and you need to be sure you can get what you need from your vendor for your country.

So I'm assuming the main purpose of the EFIS is actually for engine monitoring? Or just a backup EFIS? Or what???

If it's a backup EFIS, then it can be the primary autopilot, and spending big money to get 100% independent EFIS and autopliot is a bit of overkill. This whole airplane is a lot of overkill!

As with any other EFIS discussion, it's up to the mission of the plane and the equipment. Both AFS and Dynon have tight integration with VP-X, the SL-30, and the GTN (I know this because I have one of each in my cube). Dynon doesn't support the WX-500 stormscope, but I'm 90% sure AFS doesn't either.

I'd think for anyone to give a recommendation to this user they'd need to have a real conversation with them and determine what exactly they are trying to accomplish with their avionics.

Reading the manuals for each system would probably help a lot and give you a good sense of what the systems can do and what they can connect to.
 
VP-X over VP 200?

....... This whole airplane is a lot of overkill!

Dynon doesn't support the WX-500 stormscope, but I'm 90% sure AFS doesn't either.

My thought on this, never let a vendor tell you what is over kill. Ever seen a Ferarri or Corvette on the road. Want to talk about over kill?

Sometimes people just want stuff, its your money, go for it.

The Dynon or AFS may not support the WX-500 but your Aspen will.

On saying that. Why would you want to use a Dynon when you an Aspen? Because the screen is so much darn bigger and you can have a quick look at it without have to squint your way down to 20-20 vision just to make out your heading.

However I digress.....

Surely you would go the VP-200 with all that fine equipment.

The Vertical Power VP-X is more for saving panel space or just getting the in expensive option.

I would look into what you can do with the VP-200, it does a great deal and the display really adds a high degree of safety to your SOPs. Also I think with all that equipment you may not have the ability to handle enough connections with the VP-X. It is limitted. The VP-200 will give you the ability to connect more stuff to it.

On the EFIS side, be aware that Dynon does not have a vertical vector control if your going to be doing IFR approaches. I love Dynon but it just doesn't have that capability yet.

I personally like Dynon. I just like the display more. In truth either will do the job. I recon go with the one that makes you smile when you look at it.
 
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Dynon doesn't support the WX-500 stormscope, but I'm 90% sure AFS doesn't either

The new AF-5500 and AF-5600 will have Stormscope support in the very near future, we have been working on it.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
On the EFIS side, be aware that Dynon does not have a vertical vector control if your going to be doing IFR approaches. I love Dynon but it just doesn't have that capability yet.

I bet this is a deal-breaker for many people. Hey, Dynon... what's the latest on 1) timeline for implementing glideslope tracking on Skyview and 2) will this ever be available on the legacy systems (i.e. will we ever see the AP-76)?

-Rob
 
Cristian---(at least I hope that is your name)---welcome to VAF.

Both of the companies you mentioned frequent the site, so hopefully you will get some direct info from them.

What model are you building??

Good to have you here:D

Thank you Mike! I?m buying a Inpaer Explorer (http://inpaer.com/aeronave.asp?mod=Explorer). It?s a 4 seat, high wing experimental aircraft powered by a Lycoming YIO-390. I choosed this forum because I?m a RV-10 fan but I still don?t have money for it! Maybe in a near future!
 
Having done a ton of research on all the EFIS systems available... I'd go with the AFS.

Question though, if you're already putting in the Aspen unit why not just go with their full package?

I?m putting Aspen because I need it to get the IFR certification from ANAC and because it replaces 6 TSO instruments needed to get the certification. If I choose the analogic instruments it will cost more.

I don?t want to go with Aspen full package because its screen is too small and it?s too expensive in Brazil!
 
Why not consider GRT? As far as I am concerned, they make one of the best EIFS, speically for an IFR type flying.
 
The original poster here has an Aspen and a GTN-750 in the panel. So it's really a question of what he wants an experimental EFIS for at all? It?s big and less expensive than 2 Aspen or 2 G-500!

Aspen does a PFD and SynVis.
The GTN does all mapping and approach plates. Does the owner want to pay for data twice in the plane? Data isn't free in Brazil, and you need to be sure you can get what you need from your vendor for your country. Aspen (or other TSO EFIS) is mandatory in Brazil in case of changing those 6 equivalent TSO gauges. Garmin have the best database for Brazil.

So I'm assuming the main purpose of the EFIS is actually for engine monitoring? Or just a backup EFIS? Or what??? Yes and no! I want a all-in-one solution, with big screen and reliability and less expensive.

If it's a backup EFIS, then it can be the primary autopilot, and spending big money to get 100% independent EFIS and autopliot is a bit of overkill. This whole airplane is a lot of overkill! Using Dynon, for example, what happens with Dynon AP if I lost Skyview? This is why I want an AP independent from EFIS!

As with any other EFIS discussion, it's up to the mission of the plane and the equipment. Both AFS and Dynon have tight integration with VP-X, the SL-30, and the GTN (I know this because I have one of each in my cube). Dynon doesn't support the WX-500 stormscope, but I'm 90% sure AFS doesn't either. They are working on this, as I talk to them. And about Dynon? I?m asking because I?m not a fanboy... all I want is a good product to satisfy my needs and my tastes.

I'd think for anyone to give a recommendation to this user they'd need to have a real conversation with them and determine what exactly they are trying to accomplish with their avionics. I was almost buying Skyview, but it doesn?t have an SD card slot and have less buttons to easy interact with it. I?ll fly with my father and he is 72 old. So, I want he really flying with me. But to accomplish this I need a easy to use EFIS. This is where the 21 AFS buttons makes diference!

Reading the manuals for each system would probably help a lot and give you a good sense of what the systems can do and what they can connect to. I?m already doing this in some parts, but I don?t have the apropriate time. Thank you!
..........
 
My thought on this, never let a vendor tell you what is over kill. Ever seen a Ferarri or Corvette on the road. Want to talk about over kill?

Sometimes people just want stuff, its your money, go for it.

The Dynon or AFS may not support the WX-500 but your Aspen will.

On saying that. Why would you want to use a Dynon when you an Aspen? Because the screen is so much darn bigger and you can have a quick look at it without have to squint your way down to 20-20 vision just to make out your heading.

However I digress.....

Surely you would go the VP-200 with all that fine equipment.

The Vertical Power VP-X is more for saving panel space or just getting the in expensive option.

I would look into what you can do with the VP-200, it does a great deal and the display really adds a high degree of safety to your SOPs. Also I think with all that equipment you may not have the ability to handle enough connections with the VP-X. It is limitted. The VP-200 will give you the ability to connect more stuff to it.

On the EFIS side, be aware that Dynon does not have a vertical vector control if your going to be doing IFR approaches. I love Dynon but it just doesn't have that capability yet.

I personally like Dynon. I just like the display more. In truth either will do the job. I recon go with the one that makes you smile when you look at it.


Got it! About the VP-200, I didn?t think about it. That?s an option!
Thanks!
 
Why not consider GRT? As far as I am concerned, they make one of the best EIFS, speically for an IFR type flying.

It?s not so big as AFS and Dynon and between GRT and Dynon I?d stay with the second as they are growing quickly.

Thank you!
 
Thank you! Why?

FWIW, Simply
1- the capabilities of what is available and working now vs. what and when it will be available.
2- I have flown behind both systems, including GRT and the difference for me was very obvious (this is for IFR flying)

If I was going to build again and IFR was part of the plan, I would certainly look only at GRT and AFS unless things have changed much.

Only my 0.02 based on my experince and I mean no disrespect to the other companies as they make great products.

But nothing is probably better than your own firsthand experience, so if you get a chance to fly behind them specially to shoot an approach, it will give you that ease of mind with your choice.
 
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G500

For the same reasons as post #20, you might try an approach with a Garmin G500. I would think the total cost would be similar to the IFR Aspen.
 
I won't comment much other than to say the Stormscope will also interface with the GTN box (though not published, we have it working in several planes in other countries) as well as the Aspen. The GTS will interface with the GTN and I think the AFS as well as the Aspen.

I don't know the entirety of your requirements/mission, but given your list of equipment, I may be inclined to look at a G500 or a G900X. We know that both are legal in Brazil because we've sold a lot of both to Brazilian builders with IFR planes. A quick bit of math shows me that you're less than $10K difference to a full blown G900X.

Anyway, like others have said there are variables I don't know about so I can't really make specific comments at this time on brands.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
 
I won't comment much other than to say the Stormscope will also interface with the GTN box (though not published, we have it working in several planes in other countries) as well as the Aspen. The GTS will interface with the GTN and I think the AFS as well as the Aspen.

I don't know the entirety of your requirements/mission, but given your list of equipment, I may be inclined to look at a G500 or a G900X. We know that both are legal in Brazil because we've sold a lot of both to Brazilian builders with IFR planes. A quick bit of math shows me that you're less than $10K difference to a full blown G900X.

Anyway, like others have said there are variables I don't know about so I can't really make specific comments at this time on brands.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

Thank you! I agree with you but the problem with the $10k diference you told is that in Brazil $10k = R$17.800,00!

I keep in mind that it?s a single engine. So, flying IFR should be a exception. In other words, the airplane is for recreational purposes but it will be used to fly from the southeast to the northeast of Brazil. During this time, weather can change and become IFR. So, I need a IFR panel to, at least, land in a airport safely and do not having my plane apprehended and charged in $2k!

I was doing some arithmetic and the initial configuration is blowing my budget of $55k. So I started excluding GTN, stormscope, traffic and VP-X. In Brazil the avionics usually get overpriced in about 30% to 40%. In my count, it?s about $54k without the avionics I told above. I know fly IFR without a stormscope and a traffic in Brazil is suicide, but I?ll have to postpone the order of these avionics :(
 
Thank you! I agree with you but the problem with the $10k diference you told is that in Brazil $10k = R$17.800,00!

I was doing some arithmetic and the initial configuration is blowing my budget of $55k. So I started excluding GTN, stormscope, traffic and VP-X. In Brazil the avionics usually get overpriced in about 30% to 40%. In my count, it?s about $54k without the avionics I told above. I know fly IFR without a stormscope and a traffic in Brazil is suicide, but I?ll have to postpone the order of these avionics :(

You don't necessarily have to give up! You just have to get creative on what you purchase when and how. I think that $55K could get you pretty close to what you want. For example:

G500+SVT
GTS800
SL40
GTX327 (remote mounted)
GMA240
GTN650
Sorcerer with Servos
EMS-D10 with probes for Engine Monitor

I get a total of around US$58K before the Garmin rebates of $4K and you're down to around US $54K. I don't know what the current exchange rates are, but I think there definately is some room to work with here. There are a lot of other configurations floating around in my head that would work, but that's just one example. I'm pretty sure we could some up with something that'd be both legal and workable with your budget. Things like the SVT could be purchased later, that'd shave off some money right there. The Autopilot could start out as something like a VSGV and be upgraded to a sorcerer quite easily later (that'd save some money as well).

Cheers,
Stein
 
If it's a backup EFIS, then it can be the primary autopilot, and spending big money to get 100% independent EFIS and autopliot is a bit of overkill. This whole airplane is a lot of overkill!


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, many folks that fly IFR aren't of the same opinion.

It's only overkill if your butt isn't in the seat when/if the EFIS craps out, which could be due to power, component failure, or sowftware glitch. Fortunately, with most of the popular EFIS, this is exremely infrequent. However, I'm personally aware of incidents with all the vendors in which the screen locked up or had to be reboot inflight.

I don't know about you, but if I'm in IMC conditions, I would prefer to have an independent AP to keep the wings level with I deal with the issue and to determine what needs to be done.

I'll agree that if you only fly VFR, then it isn't a big deal. I think it is a prudent system design choice if you fly IFR.

It's all about risk management. Do you accept, transfer, or mitigate the risk? Each option has a cost, along with positive and negative attributes.
Each builder has to make a decision in which of these are more important to them.

As far as the rest of the gear being overkill, as the OP stated, most of that was government mandated.

bob
 
Cristian,
The SkyView has a USB port (3 actually). We went that way since every PC around has USB, but many require a converter to use an SD card. If you really want to use an SD card on SkyView, you can plug in a USB to SD converter.

We didn't put it on the face of the product since it meant we'd have to make the product bigger. One interesting thing with SkyView is that all data is internal, we don't need anything plugged in to USB to operate, you just plug it in when you want to update.

If your goal is "easy to fly" I think one issue you'll have with any EFIS is that your panel is actually very complex. You need to set the baro in both the Aspen and the EFIS you choose. You do your flight planning in the GTN. There are going to be a lot of things that make this airplane less integrated than a lot of other planes around, since you have two EFIS systems. As much as it pains me to say it, I think Stein is right that you may be better off with a system like the Garmin G500, since you actually need some certified stuff in the plane, and once you have that need you might as well go with a really well integrated system.

Bob,
The OP has an Aspen in the plane. Effectively, his experimental EFIS IS the autopilot, since his main EFIS is the Aspen and is totally independent of the experimental EFIS. I don't think you really mean to say that an airplane is not IFR unless it has two independent EFIS units AND an independent autopilot?

If you could only have one thing working in your plane, would you want it to be your EFIS, or your autopilot? I ask because you can get an EFIS cheaper than an autopilot.

A Dynon D6 is $1600 and runs an independent code base from SkyView. So if you use SkyView, the Servos plus a D6 cost $3,100. Now your backup is a full EFIS, not just a wing and altitude hold (which is all the TruTrak can do when your EFIS is offline). I don't think you can buy any dual axis competing autopilot for $3,100 anywhere, much less one that comes with a free EFIS.

Personally, if I'm in the soup and my EFIS goes blank, I'd rather have a second EFIS, not just an AP. Given what I know about SkyView though, I'd trust myself to a dual SkyView AHRS / Dual screen setup anyday, where failures are handled gracefully and automatically.
 
You don't necessarily have to give up! You just have to get creative on what you purchase when and how. I think that $55K could get you pretty close to what you want. For example:

G500 ..................................................................... $13,989.00
GTS800 (2 antennas) ................................................ $8,989.00
SL40 ...................................................................... $1,745.00
GTX327 (remote mounted) GTX-32 .............................. $2,289.00
GMA240 GMA-35 ....................................................... $2,649.00
GTN650 ................................................................... $9,839.00
Sorcerer with Servos +autotrim .................................... $8,100.00
EMS-D10 with probes for Engine Monitor JPI EDM 730 ....... $1,696.00
TOTAL (in USA) ... $49,296.00 in Brazil (+30%)..$64,084.80 (tooooooo much!)

I get a total of around US$58K before the Garmin rebates of $4K and you're down to around US $54K. I don't know what the current exchange rates are, but I think there definately is some room to work with here. There are a lot of other configurations floating around in my head that would work, but that's just one example. I'm pretty sure we could some up with something that'd be both legal and workable with your budget. Things like the SVT could be purchased later, that'd shave off some money right there. The Autopilot could start out as something like a VSGV and be upgraded to a sorcerer quite easily later (that'd save some money as well). Garmin is not offering rebates for international customers! Feel free to send me msg. I?d love to have this panel but..... my customs are too severe. I don?t know a store that work with parceling or financing with good rates.

Cheers,
Stein
..........
 
Cristian,
The SkyView has a USB port (3 actually). We went that way since every PC around has USB, but many require a converter to use an SD card. If you really want to use an SD card on SkyView, you can plug in a USB to SD converter.

We didn't put it on the face of the product since it meant we'd have to make the product bigger. One interesting thing with SkyView is that all data is internal, we don't need anything plugged in to USB to operate, you just plug it in when you want to update.

If your goal is "easy to fly" I think one issue you'll have with any EFIS is that your panel is actually very complex. You need to set the baro in both the Aspen and the EFIS you choose. You do your flight planning in the GTN. There are going to be a lot of things that make this airplane less integrated than a lot of other planes around, since you have two EFIS systems. As much as it pains me to say it, I think Stein is right that you may be better off with a system like the Garmin G500, since you actually need some certified stuff in the plane, and once you have that need you might as well go with a really well integrated system.

Bob,
The OP has an Aspen in the plane. Effectively, his experimental EFIS IS the autopilot, since his main EFIS is the Aspen and is totally independent of the experimental EFIS. I don't think you really mean to say that an airplane is not IFR unless it has two independent EFIS units AND an independent autopilot?

If you could only have one thing working in your plane, would you want it to be your EFIS, or your autopilot? I ask because you can get an EFIS cheaper than an autopilot.

A Dynon D6 is $1600 and runs an independent code base from SkyView. So if you use SkyView, the Servos plus a D6 cost $3,100. Now your backup is a full EFIS, not just a wing and altitude hold (which is all the TruTrak can do when your EFIS is offline). I don't think you can buy any dual axis competing autopilot for $3,100 anywhere, much less one that comes with a free EFIS.

Personally, if I'm in the soup and my EFIS goes blank, I'd rather have a second EFIS, not just an AP. Given what I know about SkyView though, I'd trust myself to a dual SkyView AHRS / Dual screen setup anyday, where failures are handled gracefully and automatically.

Thank you!

I?m in doubt because you?re right, this panel isn?t integrated. But to get a integrated Garmin, money is the problem. So we go to non-TSO and then reliability isn?t the same, plus itegrability. There is another thing: to add things later is more expensive, so getting everything now is better. But, again, the budget... my plane will be ready in march 2012, but I need the avionics by february, at max. So, no time to get more money! What a mess :p
 
Seems that in these "comparison" threads Dynon skyview typically seems to be least favored for an IFR mission. Is there any particular reason as to why this is, or is it just personal preference..

(sorry if this is hijacking the treads original question)
 
have you done both?

Seems that in these "comparison" threads Dynon skyview typically seems to be least favored for an IFR mission. Is there any particular reason as to why this is, or is it just personal preference..

(sorry if this is hijacking the treads original question)

+1

How many actually have flown the full new Skyview and AFS? Only those people have the experience needed to give a real world answer to this.
 
Gus, There is a -10 soon to be launched with the latest AFS in it, if I get a chance to fly with it I will let you know.

I have 300 hours behind the classic panels, and we use this IFR. A D100 and D180. No complaints at all. I had about 400 on a D10 VFR as well.

I have about 30 behind a skyview and I do find the synthetic vission and HUD like display a bit of hard work, but perhaps that is just hoping from one to another and I have so much more time on classics.

What I do not like with the Skyview is the two toggle knobs, in flight you need to adjust the following in order of demand, Heading/Track, Altitude, scale on map (Range) and QNH. So you need two screens and the layout set up just right.....and then a knob is at the far side of the aeroplane. :(

The AP74 and HS34 is a nice user interface :)

Photo during the build.....
m_IMG_2208.jpg
 
Another question: is these EFIS reliable? Will I loose it in flight? Hangs? Restarts?

I can answer that for the Dynon. The classic panels I have had which have now done around 2000 hrs (not all flown by me) and no hang's at all, but if you do boot them up inflight they have an excellent recovery.

The Skyview in a redundent system as dynonsupport has detailed will recover from a failed unit very fast indeed, you would not lose control of the plane in 1 second or so, and the recovery is that quick.

If you had to reboot both systems at the same time in flight :eek: I do not think you would have to but that takes a while.

I wonder if the AFS for example which is an excellent looking product behaves much different?
 
The AP74 and HS34 is a nice user interface

I had it understaood that these two don't go with the Skyview software. That Skyview does all the work for you.

Is that not true?

And yeah if you get to fly the -10, I would love to know whether the AFS is all everyone says. I just like the wide screen apect of the Dynon and I personally just like the way they have rendered the SV.
 
There is a REALLY nice RV7 down there owned by a Virgin pilot with the AFS (couple of years old maybe), also John Clements...just do not remember what he has in his. Search his posts here and have a look. They are all down there in your part of Oz.

Otherwise come up here.

Jake Jansen in Adelaide would be worth talking to as well, especially if you need someone to do the wiring for you.
 
A few ideas

+1
How many actually have flown the full new Skyview and AFS? Only those people have the experience needed to give a real world answer to this.

I think you have to remember the lead time between someone purchasing an EFIS and flying IFR. I purchased my AFS 4500 in the initial batch (before Rob released at Oshkosh). At that time it was clear that AFS were the leader. They had the best screen, best AHARS, best user interface etc. Rob has always said his products were designed for IFR - Dynon has not. Today the world is a bit different with Skyview on the scene.

My point is that in order to have experience flying behind this stuff in the soup takes time. In my case probably at least two years from purchase to flying, then some time to bed the aircraft and pilot in before I flew any night/IFR. IFR flying requires a complete aircraft system, which works together to fly safely. The EFIS is a small part of that. If you keep that in mind you will easily build a capable IFR ship with your budget.

I now have 3 years and over 350 hours in my 7A. I regularly fly IFR in IFR conditions. I sat my CIR SE initial issue (for the second time) in the aircraft and have approvals for Night, ILS, VOR, RNAV and DGE (We don't have LPV approaches here in Australia).

For what it's worth, the equipment in my panel consists of:
• AFS 4500s (upgraded around 9 months ago)
• Garmin 430W
• Garmin SL30 Com
• Garmin Audio Panel
• Garmin GTX 330 ES (ADS-B compliant transponder), with Ameriking Encoder
• Garmin CDI
• Trutrak VSGV with close to the latest firmware (I did not upgrade to the AFS unit due to feature limitations)
• WX-500 Stormscope (purchased second hand on EBay and installed)
• Backup steam gauges: Vans ASI, ALT, United 2.5" VSI, Trutrak electronic TC, Vertical Card Compass.

My main comments are:

The AFS is rock solid, 4500 and 4500s have never let me down in the air, more importantly it wouldn’t be a significant problem if they did. The new 4500s is an improvement with the dual knobs and joystick allowing much better control of the bugs/autopilot. The synthetic vision is not that great using Australian data. It may be better in the US.

Having the AFS HSI on screen and the CDI allows you to display GPS and VOR at the same time on either unit. This is helpful for intercepting VOR radials while using GPS guidance.

The Trutrak VSGV is a necessary item and I would never consider using a system which consists of servos attached to the EFIS. At minimum I can put it in heading/alt hold mode. Consider not mounting the AP disconnect switch to your stick and/or putting in an annunciator for the AP. It is not so funny when you bump the disconnect switch in IMC, even if you notice pretty quickly. I do not have auto-trim. That was a safety decision and I have never needed it. Sorcerer would be wasted with my setup as the AFS + VSGV can do everything you need.

I am 100% happy with my back up steam gauges.

The WX-500 is one of the best investments I made. In Australia we do not have NEXRAD and the WX-500 gives me the confidence to launch on days where ISOL TS are forecast. The AFS EFIS provides the heading output required by the WX-500 to plot strikes correctly, which are displayed on the 430W.

As Rob said, the AFS cannot display strike data on the map. I do not own a map license (I have tested it). With only one EFIS screen I did not like all that data displayed at the same time. What works for a VFR pilot, will quickly overwhelm an IFR pilot in IMC/turbulence so I doubt I would use it even if the AFS supported it. Also, the data is somewhat limited in this part of the world. In Australia we have cheap 3G Internet which makes weather data available on an iPad. The iPad mapping and approach plate systems are far cheaper and more capable than most of the EFIS maps.

IMO traffic is a luxury under the IFR. Nice to have but heavy and expensive unless you live in the US and can receive it from ADS-B, UAT or the radar site.

Remember at the end of the day, you cannot fly through ice in an RV. Flying approaches to the minima is not something to do lightly. No matter how much money you spend there are days when you may need to launch VFR and keep out of the weather/ice using your eyes and/or not go at all.

I can’t help with Skyview. I have seen one, but not flown behind it. They are competitive on price and for a VFR / NVFR ship it would be hard to beat. However, my preference for IFR would still be AFS.

Lastly, customer service and warranty support are important. Both AFS and Trutrak have been outstanding. Garmin, more particularly their local dealer, not so much. I can't speak to the others.

Cheers
Richard

Rv-7A - Flying,
Sydney Australia
 
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my experience

Adding to the pile.

I have a 3 years flying with AF3500, GNS430W, SL40, GTX330, PS8000, and WXWorks/XM weather. For AP, I've flown with both trutrak dgvs and the afs trutrak (almost the same). It took me a while to adjust to the button changes on the latter, but both work fine.

I bought the AFS back before they had moving map, synthetic, etc. Unlike everything else in my panel, it only got better and better over the years. The support has always been top notch. Last winter, I took the panel out and rewired the AF3500 to take advantage of all the integration with the GNS430, stuff that wasn't possible back in the build. While I was at it, I also added an AP selector switch so I can let the Garmin or AFS drive me around. Fantastic! Everything works together as well as I'd hoped. I'm (non-current) instrument rated, and I've done coupled practice approaches with no issue. I use the flight director capability on every cross country. Rob's youtube videos are pretty representative of what to expect.

Boa Sorte.
 
AF4500 in RV7 transition trainer

I have two AF4500 on my RV7 transition trainer and after 250 hs of training and about 50 practice approaches they have not had any problems at all. If they can sustain the bounces and rough student landings for this long, I will not have any problems flying them IFR when the time presents it self.

http://www.rvtraining.com/html/rv7_panel_.html

Alex De Dominicis
 
I wrote at length about this in another thread a while back so do a search, but here is a quick recap.

Not only is the EFIS itself important, but the AHRS (the sensor) needs to be up to snuff or it doesn't matter how nice the EFIS is. Out of all of the experimental EFIS vendors, only one uses a certified AHRS (though not certified in their install) that has the same degree of calibration as certified units. That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.

This same vendor also uses LED backlit displays, has software that integrates with other autopilots, and has had a complete IFR package since the day their new product line start shipping.

I bought one and haven't flown it in IFR conditions yet, but after playing with it and installing it, I don't suspect I'll have a problem.

schu
 
Cristianomc,
Do you need a whole certified airspeed and altimeter as well? I ask because you can get an electronic, TSO'd attitude indicator for $2600. If that meets your IFR requirements in Brazil that might free your budget up a but for whatever EFIS you choose.

To all others:
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.
 
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.


Why would I want to do that when I can get an EFIS/AP redundancy solution that gives me a full backup EFIS in the deal for less $ than the least expensive stand alone AP on the market? This does not even factor in the AP feature list.....:p

Lets see:

EFIS #1, AHRS
EFIS #2, AHRS
Stand alone AP, track and bank angle in stand alone mode, alt hold for more $$

Or

EFIS #1 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #2 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #3 with its own AHRS for less than inexpensive stand alone AP

Which one provides more redundancy?
 
Last edited:
I think you have to remember the lead time between someone purchasing an EFIS and flying IFR. I purchased my AFS 4500 in the initial batch (before Rob released at Oshkosh). At that time it was clear that AFS were the leader. They had the best screen, best AHARS, best user interface etc. Rob has always said his products were designed for IFR - Dynon has not. Today the world is a bit different with Skyview on the scene.

My point is that in order to have experience flying behind this stuff in the soup takes time. In my case probably at least two years from purchase to flying, then some time to bed the aircraft and pilot in before I flew any night/IFR. IFR flying requires a complete aircraft system, which works together to fly safely. The EFIS is a small part of that. If you keep that in mind you will easily build a capable IFR ship with your budget.

I now have 3 years and over 350 hours in my 7A. I regularly fly IFR in IFR conditions. I sat my CIR SE initial issue (for the second time) in the aircraft and have approvals for Night, ILS, VOR, RNAV and DGE (We don't have LPV approaches here in Australia).

For what it's worth, the equipment in my panel consists of:
? AFS 4500s (upgraded around 9 months ago)
? Garmin 430W
? Garmin SL30 Com
? Garmin Audio Panel
? Garmin GTX 330 ES (ADS-B compliant transponder), with Ameriking Encoder
? Garmin CDI
? Trutrak VSGV with close to the latest firmware (I did not upgrade to the AFS unit due to feature limitations)
? WX-500 Stormscope (purchased second hand on EBay and installed)
? Backup steam gauges: Vans ASI, ALT, United 2.5" VSI, Trutrak electronic TC, Vertical Card Compass.

My main comments are:

The AFS is rock solid, 4500 and 4500s have never let me down in the air, more importantly it wouldn?t be a significant problem if they did. The new 4500s is an improvement with the dual knobs and joystick allowing much better control of the bugs/autopilot. The synthetic vision is not that great using Australian data. It may be better in the US.

Having the AFS HSI on screen and the CDI allows you to display GPS and VOR at the same time on either unit. This is helpful for intercepting VOR radials while using GPS guidance.

The Trutrak VSGV is a necessary item and I would never consider using a system which consists of servos attached to the EFIS. At minimum I can put it in heading/alt hold mode. Consider not mounting the AP disconnect switch to your stick and/or putting in an annunciator for the AP. It is not so funny when you bump the disconnect switch in IMC, even if you notice pretty quickly. I do not have auto-trim. That was a safety decision and I have never needed it. Sorcerer would be wasted with my setup as the AFS + VSGV can do everything you need.

I am 100% happy with my back up steam gauges.

The WX-500 is one of the best investments I made. In Australia we do not have NEXRAD and the WX-500 gives me the confidence to launch on days where ISOL TS are forecast. The AFS EFIS provides the heading output required by the WX-500 to plot strikes correctly, which are displayed on the 430W.

As Rob said, the AFS cannot display strike data on the map. I do not own a map license (I have tested it). With only one EFIS screen I did not like all that data displayed at the same time. What works for a VFR pilot, will quickly overwhelm an IFR pilot in IMC/turbulence so I doubt I would use it even if the AFS supported it. Also, the data is somewhat limited in this part of the world. In Australia we have cheap 3G Internet which makes weather data available on an iPad. The iPad mapping and approach plate systems are far cheaper and more capable than most of the EFIS maps.

IMO traffic is a luxury under the IFR. Nice to have but heavy and expensive unless you live in the US and can receive it from ADS-B, UAT or the radar site.

Remember at the end of the day, you cannot fly through ice in an RV. Flying approaches to the minima is not something to do lightly. No matter how much money you spend there are days when you may need to launch VFR and keep out of the weather/ice using your eyes and/or not go at all.

I can?t help with Skyview. I have seen one, but not flown behind it. They are competitive on price and for a VFR / NVFR ship it would be hard to beat. However, my preference for IFR would still be AFS.

Lastly, customer service and warranty support are important. Both AFS and Trutrak have been outstanding. Garmin, more particularly their local dealer, not so much. I can't speak to the others.

Cheers
Richard

Rv-7A - Flying,
Sydney Australia

Thanks, Richard!
I decided that I also need TSO gauges!
 
Adding to the pile.

I have a 3 years flying with AF3500, GNS430W, SL40, GTX330, PS8000, and WXWorks/XM weather. For AP, I've flown with both trutrak dgvs and the afs trutrak (almost the same). It took me a while to adjust to the button changes on the latter, but both work fine.

I bought the AFS back before they had moving map, synthetic, etc. Unlike everything else in my panel, it only got better and better over the years. The support has always been top notch. Last winter, I took the panel out and rewired the AF3500 to take advantage of all the integration with the GNS430, stuff that wasn't possible back in the build. While I was at it, I also added an AP selector switch so I can let the Garmin or AFS drive me around. Fantastic! Everything works together as well as I'd hoped. I'm (non-current) instrument rated, and I've done coupled practice approaches with no issue. I use the flight director capability on every cross country. Rob's youtube videos are pretty representative of what to expect.

Boa Sorte.

Thank you!
By the way I heard that the best synthetic vision for Brazil is from Garmin because it?s databases is more complete thanthe other (for Brazil).
 
I wrote at length about this in another thread a while back so do a search, but here is a quick recap.

Not only is the EFIS itself important, but the AHRS (the sensor) needs to be up to snuff or it doesn't matter how nice the EFIS is. Out of all of the experimental EFIS vendors, only one uses a certified AHRS (though not certified in their install) that has the same degree of calibration as certified units. That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.

This same vendor also uses LED backlit displays, has software that integrates with other autopilots, and has had a complete IFR package since the day their new product line start shipping.

I bought one and haven't flown it in IFR conditions yet, but after playing with it and installing it, I don't suspect I'll have a problem.

schu

Thank you!
Which is the vendor you?re talking about?
 
Cristianomc,
Do you need a whole certified airspeed and altimeter as well? I ask because you can get an electronic, TSO'd attitude indicator for $2600. If that meets your IFR requirements in Brazil that might free your budget up a but for whatever EFIS you choose.

To all others:
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.

To obtain IFR certification I need a TSO EFIS with AS, ALT, VS, ATI, Gyro, T&B, ADF, and a XPNDR, NAV/COM, autop?lot (I as knew yesterday), plus TSO cables and TSO external lights, or, TSO gauges for AS, ALT, VS, ATI, Gyro, T&B, ADF and the autopilot, XPNDR, NAV/COM, plus TSO cables and TSO external lights.

Also the primary flight instruments need to stay at the primary field of view from the pilot, at 60 degrees of the center of his eyes, 30 for the left and 30 for the right.

The Aspen PFD1000 Pro is the cheapest TSO EFIS and it?s cheapper than 7 TSO gauges. But I don?t know if the 7 gauges would fit on my primary field of view if I install it together ASF-5600.

I also still didn?t decided if I?ll place these all the 7 gauges together the EFIS... maybe it?s a exaggerate! But I want security!
 
Why would I want to do that when I can get an EFIS/AP redundancy solution that gives me a full backup EFIS in the deal for less $ than the least expensive stand alone AP on the market? This does not even factor in the AP feature list.....:p

Lets see:

EFIS #1, AHRS
EFIS #2, AHRS
Stand alone AP, track and bank angle in stand alone mode, alt hold for more $$

Or

EFIS #1 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #2 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #3 with its own AHRS for less than inexpensive stand alone AP

Which one provides more redundancy?

I would keep the first! As already discussed in this thread, built in autopilots aren?t a good option because if you loose your EFIS you also loose the AP.
 
I would keep the first! As already discussed in this thread, built in autopilots aren?t a good option because if you loose your EFIS you also loose the AP.

Don't believe everything you have read in this thread or you will turn out disappointed...

For #2 above to get the AP to fail, both EFIS's would have to fail and you would still be left with a full working EFIS.

In #1 above, if both EFIS's fail, you only have a basic AP and no EFIS...
Good luck getting that on the ground!

Most stand alone AP's can't do much of anything without a fancy EFIS to enable all the magic. Lose the EFIS and your stuck with a heading holding wing leveler.

To get a full featured stand alone AP cost $$$
 
Thank you!
By the way I heard that the best synthetic vision for Brazil is from Garmin because it?s databases is more complete thanthe other (for Brazil).

That's simply not true. SkyView has a terrain database that is much higher resolution than Garmin for everywhere in the world. We have a data point every 30 meters. Just go look at the size of the terrain databases. Ours is over 20GB for the whole world, while most others are under 1GB.
 
That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.

If ARM based and 100% passively cooled are requirements for you, neither the SkyView or the AFS-5600 is the product for you, as they both have fans on the back.

In the case of SkyView, the fans are for reliability, as the product will run without failure at over 50C even if the fans are broken. The only reason we have two fans is so that if one fails you have a backup.
 
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