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EI System for Dual-Mag Engine

walkman

Well Known Member
I'm soliciting comments regarding my reasoning and choices for EI on an O-360 with the dual mag.

My intention is to remove this troublesome component entirely. Also, I do not believe that a custom built *******ized single-mag to fit in that space is really a good viable long-term option either. So that leads me to a dual EI setup.

Further, I have heard some comments about the drive for the dual mag being a problem source as well as the mag itself. Specifically, I found a couple of bits of information regarding occurrences of either/both pins shearing and/or drive gear teeth stripping either way leading to parts in the accessory case, in turn leading to a rapid failure of the engine. Any truth to this? Does this mean to eliminate that issue I should not drive anything (such as an emag) from that drive?

I found Lightspeed, Electroair, G3i, Emag, Protek, and Slick with EI solutions. G3i depends on existing mags, Emag solution has been vaporware for years, and Slick doesn't have a dual mag solution. The Protek solution apparently uses a single pick-up and cable to fire both sides. To me this appears to be a single point of failure that would take out my ignition entirely. Physical damage to the pick up, cable chafe, manufacturing defects, excessive heat or moisture or any number of things could take this out. I'm just not comfortable with it.

This appears to leave Lightspeed and Electroair. Lightspeed can be driven by two completely separate and independent crank fired sensors, eliminating anything being driven by the current mag drive gears. Electroair, suggests one side driven off a crank sensor, the other from a mag timing housing on the mag drive pad. This would re-use the drive gear and impulse coupling from my current dual mag.

I'm leaning towards the Lightspeed setup currently. Love to hear other points of view.
 
The magneto drive is shared by both magnetos. A couple of things can fail (seal, wear on the cam, etc.) that can cause both sides to fail. A friend of mine had to put a 172 down in a hurry due to an excessively worn drive cam. You're on the right track with a Lightspeed, especially if you use their newer version of the flywheel timing setup.
 
Their 6 cylinder model has been a source of great mystery for some time though.

The 6 cyl version will be out any day now! I was told first hand. One year ago. Then laughed at by a buddy who was told the same thing.. 3 years ago. :eek:
 
Yep.

I have a Lightspeed on my -10 and it runs mostly flawlessly....but..
They only crimp the wires into the spade connectors and one of mine pulled out easily on one of the coils, so I took the time to solder them all. Crimping seems like a cheesy way to manufacture this important part.

Best,
 
They only crimp the wires into the spade connectors and one of mine pulled out easily on one of the coils, so I took the time to solder them all. Crimping seems like a cheesy way to manufacture this important part.

Best,

A properly crimped terminal will never pull out and is better than solder joint in a high vibration environment. Many folks don't want to invest in the expensive mil-spec crimpers and PIDG terminals which makes all the difference if you have a good crimp or not.

However, I will add that I'm not a big fan of spade connectors, I only use them when there is no other alternative.
 
A little clairafication

Methinks some folks are confused between the terms "dual mags" and "dual mag"

Here is a "dual mag".

387.jpg


387488832_Q4xu2-S.jpg


Most of us are running dual mags.

1273836904_93343659_3-Lycoming-235-L2C-Factory-Remanufactured-Engine-Other-Vehicles-1273836904.jpg
 
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The magneto drive is shared by both magnetos. A couple of things can fail (seal, wear on the cam, etc.) that can cause both sides to fail. A friend of mine had to put a 172 down in a hurry due to an excessively worn drive cam. You're on the right track with a Lightspeed, especially if you use their newer version of the flywheel timing setup.

Obviously something that can fail which would take out both ignitions is bad. Just as bed, perhaps worse, is something that can trash the entire engine when it fails. It won't matter if one side of the ignition works fine if the cam ain't turning :)

I'm trying to figure out if there really is a problem there, and if is, whether not running a mag or EI timing device off that pad would eliminate the issue.

If there is not really an issue, or if the issue is there whether or not I run something off that drive, then electroair is a possible choice. If not, then light speed is the only way to go.
 
Having had a dual Lightspeed II EI on my last plane and the Electroair + Slick magneto on my current I'll say they are both really good systems. Based on your dilemma though, the dual Lightspeed with crank shaft sensors will be the easiest solution plus you really never have to worry about timing the engine after it is initially set.
 
Dual mag

Another issue that no one seems to consider is that the dual mag drive gear has a pilot shaft that fits into a bearing hole in the rear of the crankcase to stabilize the drive gear/impulse mass of components. That hole has an oil hole that lubricates the pilot shaft and probably should be blocked to prevent a fair sized oil leak and small drop in oil pressure.

There is one Bendix single mag (and I have forgotten the -dash number) that will accept the original dual mag pilot shaft drive gear/impulse coupler mechanism and mesh at the proper depth to the engine driven gear. This also stops the oil hemorrhage that would occur with no pilot shaft in the hole.

I got that mag part number from a mag shop in Dallas but have long since lost it. I don't think any other Bendix part numbers allow the gears to mesh at the proper depth, especially the single mag drive gears.

I researched this info because at one time I was going to convert my Bendix 3000 to a single drive mag and a Lightspeed with a flywheel pickup.

Hope this helps
 
Another issue that no one seems to consider is that the dual mag drive gear has a pilot shaft that fits into a bearing hole in the rear of the crankcase to stabilize the drive gear/impulse mass of components. That hole has an oil hole that lubricates the pilot shaft and probably should be blocked to prevent a fair sized oil leak and small drop in oil pressure.

There is one Bendix single mag (and I have forgotten the -dash number) that will accept the original dual mag pilot shaft drive gear/impulse coupler mechanism and mesh at the proper depth to the engine driven gear. This also stops the oil hemorrhage that would occur with no pilot shaft in the hole.

I got that mag part number from a mag shop in Dallas but have long since lost it. I don't think any other Bendix part numbers allow the gears to mesh at the proper depth, especially the single mag drive gears.

I researched this info because at one time I was going to convert my Bendix 3000 to a single drive mag and a Lightspeed with a flywheel pickup.

Hope this helps

Thanks Shine. I had heard about that. Where would that oil leak to? Into the accessory case? Would it not then drain back to the sump?
 
Thanks Shine. I had heard about that. Where would that oil leak to? Into the accessory case? Would it not then drain back to the sump?

It would. But the issue is that without the mag shaft in the bushing hole, the oil flow rate at that point would be greater than otherwise. That will cause a reduction in overall oil pressure in the rest of the lubrication system.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
Dual mag

Bob K. is right. How much of a drop, I don't know but the hole size is nearly 1/8th inch.

I talked to one guy who had removed the dual mag and didn't do any thing to stop the oil drain. He thought that might be the cause of his low oil pressure.

Not sure, but the pressure could probably be brought back in line by adjusting the spring on the oil pressure relief valve.

One problem with that though is that you may have localized drops in oil pressure at the oiling points upstream that are fed by the gallery that oils the pilot shaft.

I think that if I were going with 2 lightspeed ignitions, I would find some way to plug that hole.
 
How about something mag-like (say, a P-Mag) on the single drive opening, and a Lightspeed system driven from the flywheel for the other half of the plugs? That way you'd have redundancy in drive mechanisms, and redundancy in differing manufacturers.
 
How about something mag-like (say, a P-Mag) on the single drive opening, and a Lightspeed system driven from the flywheel for the other half of the plugs? That way you'd have redundancy in drive mechanisms, and redundancy in differing manufacturers.

Its an option that I'm considering. Electroair has a device that will fit there.

However I'm trying to understand whether a particular failure mode that I've heard about - where the drive gear can fail and end up trashing the accessory case stopping the engine - is a real issue, and if it is whether I can avoid the issue by not driving anything there (assuming there is a way to plug that hole).
 
Another issue that no one seems to consider is that the dual mag drive gear has a pilot shaft that fits into a bearing hole in the rear of the crankcase...

Yes, it would be a good idea to plug that hole. I have a dual-mag IO-360 and installed dual Lightspeed Plasma II's. Klaus gives you a pretty stout aluminum cover to close the mag hole. I lathe-turned a piece of alum round stock to plug that passage and attached it to the coverplate. Also, I threaded the end of the round stock 1/4-20 and used that to hold the bracket for one pair of ign coils. In other words, the cover is sandwiched between the round stock and the coil mount angle. A 1/4-20 Allen bolt is threaded from the outside and red Loctited. The other pair of coils are on top of the crankcase where most people put them.
 
Sparkin...

I'm soliciting comments regarding my reasoning and choices for EI on an O-360 with the dual mag.

My intention is to remove this troublesome component entirely. Also, I do not believe that a custom built *******ized single-mag to fit in that space is really a good viable long-term option either. So that leads me to a dual EI setup.

Further, I have heard some comments about the drive for the dual mag being a problem source as well as the mag itself. Specifically, I found a couple of bits of information regarding occurrences of either/both pins shearing and/or drive gear teeth stripping either way leading to parts in the accessory case, in turn leading to a rapid failure of the engine. Any truth to this? Does this mean to eliminate that issue I should not drive anything (such as an emag) from that drive?


I'm leaning towards the Lightspeed setup currently. Love to hear other points of view.

WM,
I am flying my third iteration of Electroairs (Jeff Rose) wonderful EI system. Two systems are on 0-320's (RV4/RVX) with a single mag and EA's Hall effect sensor drive unit in the other. On my Harmon Rocket I covered the empty mag hole with EA's supplied cover and used the Crank trigger for TDC sensing. All three systems are working flawlessly, two with well over 1000 hours. Performance improvement noted is at least 1 GPH reduction in the 0-320's and possibly 2.5 GPH with the IO-540. Highly recommended.

I have used Denso L14U or Autolite 386 plugs for the EI and aircraft plugs on the Mag. Accel spark plug wires also work extremely well on the EA system. Over the past 20 years the EI has shown the mag to be the weak link but retained for safety. If you go with dual EI, I recommend 2 odessey batteries, 1 primary and 1 backup. Bob Knuchols has a great wiring diagram for dual batteries.

Electorair's new system is even better...
www.electroair.net
V/R
Smokey

PS: Before I went in the military I towed banners for over 3000 hours behind 0-320/0-360 powered Cubs/Scouts. Never had an accessory gear fail, but many mags bit the dust.
 
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Ignition system

I like the new LSE crank trigger, has redundant pick ups, the ignitions speak for themselves. I've been very happy with my Plasma III (sooooo smooth)
Lots of product out there with a high number of hours flown
Peter
RV 6.2
 
If I went with one crank fired side and left my current mag in place for the second side for the time being, how would I "cap off" the unused side?
 
In a word, YES!

V/R
Smokey

Smokey

Thanks for the encouragement :) I think you missed the word "how" in my question

Unlike a traditional mag setup, where I would simply remove one mag and use a block off plate or similar, in this case I've still got the 2nd mag turning because its in the same case as the mag that remains. So, it is simply a matter of removing the ignition leads? Or is it more complicated?

I'm concerned for example about internal arcing that might occur if I just remove the leads.

If I've got to do major surgery on the mag unit, then I might as well go whole hog, rather than bit at a time. I'm guessing there is a market for a well functioning dual-mag with all the ADs c/w especially in the certified market.
 
See:Redundancy

WM,
No major surgery required, outpatient only! My RV7 buddy has an IO-360 A1B6 with the "double mag" in one hole setup with a Electroair system and crank trigger.
He removed the lead wire cover plate from the inactive Mag and installed the plastic shipping cover over the hole. He carefully bundled the leads and cover and carries them along on cross countries in case the other Mag side fails. He also grounded the inactive Mag P-Lead connection so it doesn't fire on that side.

A simpler option would be to bundle the inactive leads and ground the P-Lead.

You could call that "double redundancy" :)
V/R
Smokey
 
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O360 dual mag change.

I changed my O360A1F6D dual mag in 2004. I used a Bendix SL4LN-21 (LH) p/n10-51360-37 that was set up by Select Aircraft Service Inc, Lancaster, Texas, 972-227-9580. This is 2004 information.

I used an Electroair EI with a crank trigger.

This setup has worked well for over 400hrs.

Gary
RV6A builder.
EAA TC
 
WM,
No major surgery required, outpatient only! My RV7 buddy has an IO-360 A1B6 with the "double mag" in one hole setup with a Electroair system and crank trigger.
He removed the lead wire cover plate from the inactive Mag and installed the plastic shipping cover over the hole. He carefully bundled the leads and cover and carries them along on cross countries in case the other Mag side fails. He also grounded the inactive Mag P-Lead connection so it doesn't fire on that side.

A simpler option would be to bundle the inactive leads and ground the P-Lead.

You could call that "double redundancy" :)
V/R
Smokey

Great news. Thanks!
 
I changed my O360A1F6D dual mag in 2004. I used a Bendix SL4LN-21 (LH) p/n10-51360-37 that was set up by Select Aircraft Service Inc, Lancaster, Texas, 972-227-9580. This is 2004 information.

I used an Electroair EI with a crank trigger.

This setup has worked well for over 400hrs.

Gary
RV6A builder.
EAA TC

Gary

I think I am going this route. I spoke with Aircraft Service Inc., they have a good mag for me. Just wanted to follow up with you on this configuration before I pull the trigger and see if there have been any issues or other gotchas I need to be aware of. Has this continued to be a good setup for you?

Thanks
 
Dueling Banjos

I changed my O360A1F6D dual mag in 2004. I used a Bendix SL4LN-21 (LH) p/n10-51360-37 that was set up by Select Aircraft Service Inc, Lancaster, Texas, 972-227-9580. This is 2004 information.

I used an Electroair EI with a crank trigger.

This setup has worked well for over 400hrs.

Gary
RV6A builder.
EAA TC

Just came across this thread again today. The people above are the ones I remember talking to that I mentioned in a post back in Mar. The -37, I believe is the mag that I remember them talking about.

The original dual mag drive and impulse coupling can be fitted to this mag and will give you the proper depth of spacing of the drive gear from the parting surfaces and will satisfy plugging the oil hole in the pilot hole in the crankcase.
 
Another option not mentioned on this thread is the dual EFII system. It specifically has a blank plate that has an adaptor to cover the oil port in the dualmag hole.

I was going with Lightspeed until I chatted to the guy who makes the system and spoke to some of his customers. The product looks well made and I was impressed with the mag plate, so am giving it a bash I too have a dualmag - on an o-360-a1ad.

The system doesn't have a lot of flying hours, and only 100 sold so far, which is the only down side, but apparently they are building up their numbers slowly. Will be interesting to see how it performs.

EFII-Dualmag-cover.jpg
 
macwolf - I like your avatar.

How long before you are flying with the EFII system? I have an IO-360 A1F6D and would like to go to electronic ignition but am not ready to spend the money just yet so I have time to see how this system works out.
 
Just so everyone is aware, the EFII aircraft system may be relatively new but the main components have been around for many years with millions of hours on the system. Check out sdsefi. Ross is a very knowledgable man when it comes to engines, ei/fi and turbo charging. His components have been used in many race cars, Reno race planes, desert race trucks, you name it. I'm 99% sure this is what I'm going to use when I take the plunge.
 
Another option not mentioned on this thread is the dual EFII system. It specifically has a blank plate that has an adaptor to cover the oil port in the dualmag hole.

I was going with Lightspeed until I chatted to the guy who makes the system and spoke to some of his customers. The product looks well made and I was impressed with the mag plate, so am giving it a bash I too have a dualmag - on an o-360-a1ad.

The system doesn't have a lot of flying hours, and only 100 sold so far, which is the only down side, but apparently they are building up their numbers slowly. Will be interesting to see how it performs.

EFII-Dualmag-cover.jpg

I actually bought one of these from Robert, however I decided against his system because there are too many shared components when you go with dual EI systems. Shared components is one of the reasons I want to get rid of the dual mag in the first place. Putting a single mag in its place solves a lot of problems with complexity, backup power, independent ignition systems etc. It just makes more sense for me, especially as I fly night, over water, and IFR.
 
Full redundant EFII dual ignition coming soon

We use the most reliable ECU available as mentioned.

Personally, I have flown 400 hours on our single ECU system and have full confidence in it's reliability. Though some of our customers fly over rough terrain or expanses of water and want as much redundancy as they can get.

As such we have had a steady stream of requests for a fully redundant dual ignition.

So, we are are in the process of making this available. This will be a completely redundant dual ignition with two ECUs and two crank triggers. This system will be offered in addition to the single ECU dual ignition that we now offer. As with all of our systems, if you choose, in the future you can always add more parts to this new system and upgrade it to the full electronic engine management system with electronic fuel injection and high energy electronic ignition.

Robert Paisley
 
EFII dual crank trigger for two ECU systems

Here is a pic of the prototype dual crank trigger for our new dual ECU system.
Robert
dual_crank_trigger3.jpg
 
No prob

Glad to have a great resource like this to go to in the first place.

I will have a d3000 with all the latest ad and sb done for sale shortly. I have the newer style hold down clamps too.
 
Thanks

Thanks for the compliment Walkman,
We feel your plane deserves the best possible quality of parts.
Robert
 
Single drive dual PMag

For anyone that may be interested.

I have had a little email correspondence with Brad at Emagair this past week in regard to the single drive Pmag for 4 cylinder engines we have all heard about for so long. Here is his response when I asked him how much longer.

Hi Graham:

The dual E-MAG will follow the release of the six cylinder version we intend to show at Oshkosh (less than a month). So ?maybe? around year end for the dual E-MAG.

I must say he returned my email almost straight away and was very responsive and helpful to this question and all the others I put to him even though I have never spent a cent on his product...YET! :)
 
El Lasar

I have the Lasar system with tow slick electronic mags I was told if the Lasar fails the mags check in and do the job like ordinary mags. I was also told in 4 years I will be replacing the Lasar system and as I haven't done the first flight as yet this still has to be proven.
Any input on the Lasar system from anyone that has or still is running it on there RV.
 
Looking for pireps on EFII/Protek Performanc

Thanks for the compliment Walkman,
We feel your plane deserves the best possible quality of parts.
Robert


The EFII/Protek product looks absolutely first rate in particular the billet mounting brackets and the wiring connectors.

However I'm having a hard time getting any pireps.

Any one here use their product care to chime in?
 
EEFI

The EFII/Protek product looks absolutely first rate in particular the billet mounting brackets and the wiring connectors.

However I'm having a hard time getting any pireps.

Any one here use their product care to chime in?

Im spring loaded to buy the complete dual system for my IO-360-A3B6D to replace the Siamese mag.
 
I've decided to modify a regular mag to replace the current dual mag and just use one ei, at least for now. Makes the installation much easier without worrying about backup power etc.
 
Mike -

Thanks! You'll have to forgive me for not actually owning an RV...but I am quite fond of them!

This forum community has been extremely helpful along my experimental journey. Thanks for being so awesome!

Louis
 
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