be careful around the MOA F-16s

I was going through some old video and I found this clip from a few years ago. I was flying to an air race with the twin Comanche support plane on the right wing. We were near a MOA ( under it ) when this occurred. Watch closely in the first 2 seconds you will see a black dot streak across the screen. That is 2 F-16s. I suppose they flew an intercept on us because one flew high cover and the other pulled up behind the twin. After a few mins he broke off. You can't see him, but there is another unrelated RV far off the right wing of the Comanche. WE WERE NOT VIOLATING ANY AIRSPACE
I posted this to show how hard it can be to see an airplane coming head on.
I actually saw 4 F-16s but I didn't get the other two on the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXLauqvf2nY

The Comanche pilot didn't believe me when I told him we were intercepted until he saw the video.

Wow , , wow that's all I gotta say is wow ,

thats what I said

Yes 95 percent would not have even seen them. I thought it was a single ship at first but the dots you see are two airplanes and there were two more airplanes that I didn't catch on video. I had to use stop motion on the big screen to see it was 2 airplanes and not one.

morale of the story... if you are near a MOA keep your eyes open.

Here's another...

Below is another example of a near mid-air in a MOA. The T-38 is on a practice bomb run. IAS is approximately 350 kts. At the moment they are attempting to visually identify the drop zone. Their total attention is focused between locating the bomb range outside and the HUD target steering information inside. They are not in a “see and avoid” mode. The wx is CAVOK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVtstYAZLY

Regards,

scary

That's scary. In our case I saw them and I am sure they saw us. I adjusted course to the left ( for what its worth ) and as they went by they were wing up towards us. It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't RTB and passed us first and then turned around to take a look.

F-16's can be hard to see! I've been intercepted a few times here and in the sandbox, looks like fun...

Years ago I was flying a Chinook along Highway 58 between Barstow and Mojave through R-2515, about 800-1000' AGL, daytime. Edwards tells us we have traffic at 12 o'clock, opposite direction 2 F-16's that have us in "sight". He did not specify an altitude that I remember. I didn't see 'em until they were about to pass UNDER us, smart-alecks.

A major flying magazine a while back had a article by one of their staff writers essentially advising people to ignore MOA's and fly through them. Her reasoning showed she had no understanding about the training that could be going on in a MOA. It's easy to check with ATC to find out if a MOA is hot. I avoid them when they are in use.
George

Unfortunately, I live smack dab in the middle of the Bulldog MOA and 99% of my customers do as well. Yep, my head stays on a swivel. My ag work is below their flights but it worries me when we climb to altitude on a cross country in the -10, so the transponder's always squawking.

Best,

I flew through the Eglin MOA many times and even below the floor, there were many times crossed paths with trainers descending back to Whiting Field. I watched many F-15-16 TO from Eglin then spiral up and disappear in astonishingly little time, like I was suspended there, not going 145kt in a 182. I was told that they like to play over the gulf as they can go supersonic there.

Flight following helped, but I think they were alerted to me more than vice-versa. All turbo-prop, no jet traffic, thankfully.

There is another aspect of the MOA that I didn't see mentioned in the thread.

Remember when you were getting you initial rating or perhaps when you started working on your instrument rating. How long did it take you to get your head in front of the aircraft? Now imagine a newly minted UPT grad starting the F-16 B course. Or a fresh LT just starting UPT in a T-6 or T-38.

You want to give that pilot that is new to his airframe as much space as possible. Don't assume that because he is a military pilot that he has already mastered his airframe. That's why they're in the MOA practicing.

Unfortunately, there is no way to judge the skill level of the pilot by looking at the aircraft. While they are learning, they can make the same stupid mistake we made, except they are going a whole lot faster.

bob

Re. the F-16s in the posted video, I would bet they had you and were just doing what F-16 pilots do - intercepting targets.

As for flying through MOAs, I'll do it all day long if I have good visibility. Active or not. I wasn't a military aviator (didn't have 20-20 uncorrected - presumably necessary for seeing other aircraft), but I'm not sure it's realistic to assume that one will be guaranteed clear airspace if and when they're deployed. So keeping one eye outside can't be a bad feature of training.

It is such a simple call to the controlling entity to get a squawk code. I have never been "denied", put off, or redirected. Occasionally, they will ask me to maintain a given altitude, or avoid certain ones, or advise if there is a specific training going on along my intended route. The MOA's I usually travel through are in very remote areas so I find comfort in knowing that I have someone on the radio if needed.
Now, that in itself does not guarantee anything, but why not.
If I can flight plan conveniently around them, I do so, and it shouldn't surprise anyone that some thought was put into where these are located. There is usually an almost direct route to be found around them.
I am sure it is a different story in areas that have a high density of MOA's overlaying their airspaces.

Pennsacola regional is surrounded by very active MOA's. I once asked a departure controller if he called targets to departing airliners. He said he just called "multiple targets next 5 miles" to the airliners and they were pretty much on their own (see and avoid).

Thank God for the big sky, little airplanes phenomena.

gereed75 said:

Pennsacola regional is surrounded by very active MOA's. I once asked a departure controller if he called targets to departing airliners. He said he just called "multiple targets next 5 miles" to the airliners and they were pretty much on their own (see and avoid).

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For what it is worth, you won't find an IFR air carrier or anything else inside an active MOA, or closer than three miles from the boundary. VFR yes, IFR, no.

Low Pass said:

Re. the F-16s in the posted video, I would bet they had you and were just doing what F-16 pilots do - intercepting targets.

As for flying through MOAs, I'll do it all day long if I have good visibility. Active or not. I wasn't a military aviator (didn't have 20-20 uncorrected - presumably necessary for seeing other aircraft), but I'm not sure it's realistic to assume that one will be guaranteed clear airspace if and when they're deployed. So keeping one eye outside can't be a bad feature of training.

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They might have "seen" you; but just because some military jets have that ability does NOT mean they really see you. Reference Bob's post eariler.

I can tell you from experience as a military pilot that looking out for VFR traffic in a MOA is more towards the bottom of our list of things we are concentrating on while flying our busy profiles. And knocking off maneuvers for some bloke flying fat dumb and happy right through the middle because he thinks it's fun causes us to stop what we're doing and it wastes precious time and gas.

Some guys may intercept you because they think it's fun and they want to show off. Others may do it out of annoyance as if to say "**** off, dude".

It is completely within your rights to fly VFR through a MOA; but it doesn't necessarily mean it's always a good idea.

Edit:
Definitely not a personal attack on you; just wanted to say, be careful out there!

Low Pass said:

Re. the F-16s in the posted video, I would bet they had you and were just doing what F-16 pilots do - intercepting targets.

As for flying through MOAs, I'll do it all day long if I have good visibility. Active or not. I wasn't a military aviator (didn't have 20-20 uncorrected - presumably necessary for seeing other aircraft), but I'm not sure it's realistic to assume that one will be guaranteed clear airspace if and when they're deployed. So keeping one eye outside can't be a bad feature of training.

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As a former Air Force GCI controller believe me when I say that F16 pilots, actually all military pilots, do a lot more than just "intercept targets" within an MOA or Warning area. When flying through an active MOA you are not guaranteed any kind of separation at any time.

Knowing this, I avoid any active MOA and even add a buffer area around them. Although I would be right to fly through an active MOA, I could wind up being dead right.

While we are talking about avoiding traffic in MOAs I can not but notice that most near misses happened outside of special use airspace. Military aircraft are a lesser problem since they are small in number. Watch out for all airplanes (and birds). Following is the link to the "See and Avoid" website. You can find the status of SUA and near miss sites.

http://www.seeandavoid.org/

In order to keep myself safe I installed ADS-B in/out. It gives me better chance to see other traffic. In our practice area it is not uncommon to see many airplanes doing flight training, aerobatic, and formation practice in a small area. Of course not all airplanes and no birds show up on ADS-B. Keep vigilant with constant visual scan is a must.

I do have a few questions concerning SUA:

a. Does military airplanes flying in MOA show up on ATC radar thus displayed on ADS-B?

b. How do you obtain controlling agency frequency of a SUA? Foreflight and chart list only the controlling agency name. If there is a airport nearby with instrument approaches, the approach control frequency is on the approach plate.

We can not always avoid going through MOAs (sometimes we even operate at an airport inside a MOA). We need to use whatever tools to keep us safe.

GalinHdz said:

As a former Air Force GCI controller believe me when I say that F16 pilots, actually all military pilots, do a lot more than just "intercept targets" within an MOA or Warning area. When flying through an active MOA you are not guaranteed any kind of separation at any time.

Knowing this, I avoid any active MOA and even add a buffer area around them. Although I would be right to fly through an active MOA, I could wind up being dead right.

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Never said all mil pilots do in MOAs is intercept GA pilots. I said that's prob what they were doing in this case. And I am 100% familiar with pilot responsibilities in a MOA and all other airspace. And the only time I rely on ATC for separation is when I'm on an IFR flight plan in IMC. All other times, I rely on *my* eyes.

If we're going to say all GA planes avoid MOAs - in order to save fuel because one of the citizens of the country decided exercise their rights and fly though the airspace - then let's change the rules, and I'll gladly comply. Until then, sounds like we both need to keep our eyes open.

And as for those annoyed mil pilots saying "**** off, dude", you better remember why you're flying that mission. It's so we can be free to fly these planes though MOAs. Think about it.

Low Pass said:

Never said all mil pilots do in MOAs is intercept GA pilots. I said that's prob what they were doing in this case. And I am 100% familiar with pilot responsibilities in a MOA and all other airspace. And the only time I rely on ATC for separation is when I'm on an IFR flight plan in IMC. All other times, I rely on *my* eyes.

If we're going to say all GA planes avoid MOAs - in order to save fuel because one of the citizens of the country decided exercise their rights and fly though the airspace - then let's change the rules, and I'll gladly comply. Until then, sounds like we both need to keep our eyes open.

And as for those annoyed mil pilots saying "**** off, dude", you better remember why you're flying that mission. It's so we can be free to fly these planes though MOAs. Think about it.

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I completely agree, but unless I have to fly into a hot MOA in order to land/depart a particular airport, I stay out of them. I don't want to be "dead right".

Low Pass said:

And as for those annoyed mil pilots saying "**** off, dude", you better remember why you're flying that mission. It's so we can be free to fly these planes though MOAs. Think about it.

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That statement is bothering me a bit. Granted I be a little sensitive since my son just finished UPT.

Most pilots aren't flying a "mission" in a MOA. They are training so that the can safely execute a mission when required. It's a mandatory part of their training. They are suppose to stop whatever they are doing once they aware of a GA aircraft in the MOA for safety reasons. At least in UPT, they only get two three flights a week. If they have to knock things off due to a GA aircraft flying in an active MOA, they usually have to fly back to base and repeat that training another day putting them behind schedule.

Sometimes there is no way around flying through a MOA. In many cases, it doesn't cause a significant delay to fly around a MOA. Or at least coordinate with the after controlling organization.

So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights. Would you prefer them to be proficient at their mission or would you rather save a few minutes of flight time?

So while it may be completely legal to fly through the MOA, think about the cause and effect. It's not some military pilot hot rodding in his fighter, it's a pilot that is training so they can put their life on the line for us. I would suggest that it's probably best for all to stay out of their way when training.

My apologies to those that I may have offended by climbing up on this soap box.

As a guy who's primary occupation is aviation logistics, including the financial accounting for several type/model/series of Marine Corps aircraft, I'll throw out another point to consider: These aircraft cost multiple thousands of dollars per hour to fly. The majority of that is parts and maintenance, but gas is not an insignificant piece either. With a cost per hour of $3k to $16k just for the airframe (depending on t/m/s), not including the pilot, as a taxpayer you should care about something that causes wasted flight hours or sorties to have to be re-flown. Remember, if you blow their mission and they have to re-fly it, then the gas and maintenance that got them out to the MOA and back was wasted.

I'm not saying don't fly through the MOA, but a little coordination might save their training mission and the taxpayers some dough. Every little bit helps, right?

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032

Thanks Bob.

Bob, as the father of my son who is the company commander of a state National Guard Apache unit, I completely support what you said. These guys are putting their lives on the line training. There are many on this forum who know this very well and some are doing this daily now. How about we just give them a bit of respect and clear skys?

I am not saying that the military guys don't have some fun now and then - but the few minutes spent going around a MOA is a pretty small price to pay to help these guys out.

Thanks Bob for the comments and support of the men and women that allow us to sleep at night.

rleffler said:

That statement is bothering me a bit. Granted I be a little sensitive since my son just finished UPT.

Most pilots are flying a "mission" in a MOA. They are training so that the can safely execute a mission when required. It's a mandatory part of their training. They are suppose to stop whatever they are doing once they aware of a GA aircraft in the MOA for safety reasons. At least in UPT, they only get two three flights a week. If they have to knock things off due to a GA aircraft flying in an active MOA, they usually have to fly back to base and repeat that training another day putting them behind schedule.

Sometimes there is no way around flying through a MOA. In many cases, it doesn't cause a significant delay to fly around a MOA. Or at least coordinate with the after controlling organization.

So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights. Would you prefer them to be proficient at their mission or would you rather save a few minutes of flight time?

So while it may be completely legal to fly through the MOA, think about the cause and effect. It's not some military pilot hot rodding in his fighter, it's a pilot that is training so they can put their life on the line for us. I would suggest that it's probably best for all to stay out of their way when training.

My apologies to those that I may have offended by climbing up on this soap box.

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tc1234c said:

I do have a few questions concerning SUA:

a. Does military airplanes flying in MOA show up on ATC radar thus displayed on ADS-B?

b. How do you obtain controlling agency frequency of a SUA? Foreflight and chart list only the controlling agency name. If there is a airport nearby with instrument approaches, the approach control frequency is on the approach plate.

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a. Yes; military airplanes flying in a MOA are on an IFR clearance and therefore are squawking (if it's a formation, then lead is the only one squawking).

b. There is not a particular frequency for any given MOA; the VFR sectional only lists the controlling center agency.

It's been a while since I've done any VFR flying around in GA aircraft, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong; but if you are utilizing flight following then you're "talking" to someone and they should be able to give you information on the particular airspace in question. (Some MOAs are so large that their airspace may cover multiple center frequencies; so more than one freq should be able to provide you an answer).

Low Pass said:

And as for those annoyed mil pilots saying "**** off, dude", you better remember why you're flying that mission. It's so we can be free to fly these planes though MOAs. Think about it.

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This comment bothers me some as well. Again, it was certainly not my intent to throw stones or make anyone upset...just trying to educate people a little more about the implications of flying through an active MOA and the negative impacts it has on military training (as Bob took the time to more eloquently describe than I...thank you Bob) and financially to the taxpayer (as PJ pointed out).

Be careful

Be careful answering "yes, mil pilots in a moa are on ifr"

This is certainly not always the case.

Minimizing impact

Gents, here's some of my perspective on this topic. FWIW, I'm an F-15 pilot by trade, and I completed my RV-6 about 7 years ago. So I see this from both sides all the time. My policy: I will fly through MOAs in my RV-6 when I need to, usually the same ones that I fly F-15 missions in. The truth is, we can often use the same MOA airspace without significant impact on each other. The training mission happening in that MOA is not likely to be canceled altogether just because there is "stranger traffic" (which is what we call you when you're inside the MOA). It might have to be modified a little bit, but usually it's not a huge factor, and it's a "fog of war" factor that has plenty of real combat equivalents. Besides, the altitudes you fly in your RV are usually not "tactically relevant". Fighters, in particular, either want to be very low (500' or less) or medium-altitude (20,000-40,000') for most tactics. The reason is that 500 feet to 20,000' is the heart of the Anti Aircraft Artillery and MANPAD envelopes - not somewhere you want to be in bad guy land. In some situations, we may need to be down to 10,000', but there are few tactically sound reasons to be between 500' and 10,000'. The exception is dropping dumb bombs or strafing, but that is what Restricted Areas (bombing ranges) are for.
If you fly a standard, non-oxygen, non-pressurized 8,500' MSL cruising altitude through a MOA, it's quite easy for us to put a "floor" at 10,000' MSL and keep fighting with little to no impact. No problem. If you are up at 14,000', or even worse, cruising pressurized at 17,500' - that is much more problematic, and I would ask that you avoid doing that.
All of that is from a pointy-nosed fast-mover perspective - other MOA users may have a different perspective. If you have a MOA close to your home base, it would pay to find out what kind of missions typically go on there. All Air Force bases have an airspace shop that has local community engagement as one of its missions - they will be happy to educate you.
So my advice is to be below 10,000' MSL, call the controlling agency on the radio and tell them where you're going and what altitude, and fly direct. Gas is expensive, after all.

Cheers,

So think about that fresh LT that is struggling to learn a new airframe or their weapon systems, with very limited flying time due sequestration budget cuts, so that they can be well prepared to fly any mission to protect our rights.
[/QUOTE]

Jordan brings up a excellent point. I've seen the great document that Sheppard AFB put together to assist locals with understanding what's happening in their MOA.

This document can be found here:

http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120221-059.pdf

I would hope and/or assume that other bases may do an equally good job at working with the local GA community.

Accidents do happen. This is a small sample of mid-air incidents just from a single AFB/MOA.

T-38 versus civilian climbing out of Kickapoo
T-38 versus pipeline aircraft 1 mile off Runway 33 left SAFB
T-38 crosses over a civilian airplane while descending out of Comer
T-38 climbs for departing traffic out of Kickapoo
T-38 climbs for civilian traffic at Annaa
T-37 descending on VOR DME / A versus Air Tractor
2-ship T-6 formation versus Evac flight helicopter at 1500’ MSL between the T-6 pattern entry point Bridge and the Class D air space
T-6 versus civilian traffic in military operations area (MOA)
T-6 versus civilian traffic from Kickapoo in T-6 VFR traffic pattern shortly after T-6 entered the pattern at the town of Dean and was descending to 1500’ MSL

Lamps, you are correct - I had forgotten about you helo guys!

rleffler said:

Jordan brings up a excellent point. I've seen the great document that Sheppard AFB put together to assist locals with understanding what's happening in their MOA.

This document can be found here:

http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120221-059.pdf

I would hope and/or assume that other bases may do an equally good job at working with the local GA community.

Accidents do happen. This is a small sample of mid-air incidents just from a single AFB/MOA.

T-38 versus civilian climbing out of Kickapoo
T-38 versus pipeline aircraft 1 mile off Runway 33 left SAFB
T-38 crosses over a civilian airplane while descending out of Comer
T-38 climbs for departing traffic out of Kickapoo
T-38 climbs for civilian traffic at Annaa
T-37 descending on VOR DME / A versus Air Tractor
2-ship T-6 formation versus Evac flight helicopter at 1500? MSL between the T-6 pattern entry point Bridge and the Class D air space
T-6 versus civilian traffic in military operations area (MOA)
T-6 versus civilian traffic from Kickapoo in T-6 VFR traffic pattern shortly after T-6 entered the pattern at the town of Dean and was descending to 1500? MSL

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Bob,

Excellent guide, I hope the other bases publish a similar document. I might add that some military training airspace is not published other than a note on the sectional. For example, the Air Force conducts it Initial Flight Screening program out of Pueblo, CO. There are about 30 training sectors between 12 and 28 DME from PUB VOR. The training sectors are only between 7000 and 8500 ft MSL, however, the students will drop below the floor to practice ground reference maneuvers. None of these sectors are published.

On a different note. Congrats Bob on your son's recent graduation from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training. I assume your son completed Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. What aircraft is he going to fly?

Regards,

TomVal said:

I assume your son completed Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. What aircraft is he going to fly?

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Yes, he graduated from ENJPPT this past summer. He's just starting his F-16 B course at Luke.

bob

MOA INFO

Here is some good info posted in a previous thread last year:

I can't speak for the Navy, but all Air Force flying wings produce a MACA pamphlet. Call the Flight Safety Office and ask for it. Each is specific to the base, its airspace, and particular aircraft. I was a flight safety officer for several years and had a hand in writing a few of these documents. I guarantee you that the people you speak with will be enthusiastic about helping you.
__________________
Karl, Goodyear, AZ (KGYR)
RV-8
I paid my =VAF= dues for 2014

Here is the thread: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=84745

I have no MOAs in my local area so I have no experience. But after looking at the original video, if those jets were indeed closing from in front, I don't think I could have either seen them or avoided them if I did see them. Pretty scary.