What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Critique my panel design!

Draker

Well Known Member
After months of agonizing and tweaking, I'm starting to get serious on a panel layout. So exciting! I figured before I get the chainsaw out, why not let hundreds of years of combined VAF experience loose to roast/critique it... likely there's something I didn't think of, or a better way.

(all images click through to larger ones)


FRONT VIEW

This is an all-Garmin panel featuring two side-by-side GDU460 units. G5 backup display on the left. Center stack contains GTR 200B com radio and GMC 507 autopilot controller. The blank space is set aside for a potential (far future) IFR GTN 650. Above the blank area are backup airspeed and altimeter steam gauges.

I plan to use Van's 1" extended height panel--a single piece that extends from side skin to side skin, instead of the removable "ears", for the 1-1/4" air vents.

I could not find a pleasing way to fit pilot and passenger headset+LEMO jacks yet, so I may choose to hang small brackets underneath the panel for this purpose or go with jacks in the armrests.

Hobbs meter and ELT control over on the passenger side.

Under the G5 is a parking brake pull handle, and under that a single 5A circuit breaker protecting the alternator field supply circuit. The remainder of the aircraft's electrical circuit protection will consist of four 8-circuit ATO blade fuse blocks mounted on the sub-panel.

Very early draft of data interconnect plan, wiring harness, and wiring diagrams here.


SWITCHES

Standard bat style toggle switches (from left to right):
  1. (SPST) IBBS Battery backup enable
  2. (DPDT) Combination Master / Alternator Field switch (Progressive OFF-ON-ON)
  3. (DPDT) Left Mag (OFF-ON-MOM)
  4. (DPDT) Right Mag (OFF-ON-MOM)
    (Simultaneously hold both switches in the momentary up position to engage starter)
  5. (DPST) Autopilot servo enable
  6. (SPST) Pitot Heat
  7. (SPST) Nav (position) lights
  8. (SPST) Landing lights
  9. (SPST) Taxi lights
  10. (DPDT) Strobe/WigWag (Three position: Up is strobe, Down is WW, Center is off)
  11. (SPST) Boost Fuel Pump
  12. (SPDT) Flaps (MOM-OFF-ON, flap down is momentary)


PASSENGER SIDE

Self-explanatory. 3 separate dimmer circuits, pax PTT, Dual USB charger and stereo 3.5mm jack for music input


ANNUNCIATOR LIGHTS

Left side: Oil pressure, low voltage, master caution, master warning, and a switch to test flash them.
Right side: Carbon monoxide warning with test switch

This design leaves open the possibility of preserving the canopy release handle, if I choose to run it out to the panel.


Due to the depth of the COM radio, a modification will need to be cut into the sub-panel. Also, as others have pointed out here in the past, this display configuration requires relocating the aft halves of the F-745 sub-panel ribs. Planning to attach the radio and AP brackets directly to those ribs.


Clearance looks good for all pull cables and instrument depths, once the COM radio is accommodated.


REAR VIEW

That's about it. Anyone have any suggestions or critiques?

Now all I have to do is mortgage the house...
 
I put my lemo plugs on the air vent ears. they work fine but if I did it again I would put them behind the seats.
 
If you have dual EFIS screens, (presumably) dual ADAHRS, and a backup mini-EFIS... why the steam gauges?
 
I would add that you do what I am right now for the future GPS unit. Find you the tray and connectors and install all the wiring now. That way you don't have to do major surgery. You also may want to look into the Avidyne IFD-440 for a couple of reasons. When I did my research I literally heard no one preferring the GTN-650 over the IFD-440 of those that ACTUALLY flew both. (although someone will most likely be along shortly to correct this because some just want to argue lol) Also, you can find a tray and connectors for an old Garmin 430W (which will be cheaper than a new tray) and when the time comes the IFD-440 slide right into that tray. Drop in replacement. That was one of the best decisions Avidyne ever made in my mind. This is all just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. However, I was initially considering the 650 and very very easily changed my mind when I started reading about the two.
 
No need for the Hobbs meter. That info will be in the EFIS.

Move the switches so you go left to right and put your hand on the throttle and never move it again. This includes raising and lowering the flaps.
 
If it were me, I'd want the TOGA button next to the throttle. Also, I think it's going to be a hassle to have to start the airplane by hitting two switches, but that's just personal preference.

Is nobody using an avionics master anymore?
 
Yea.... change the Garmin to Dynon :D:D:D

I'll get my coat ;)

I couldn't agree more.

One thing I would highly recommend, is installing a Dynon PocketPanel rater than the Garmin backup unit.b the reason is that the PocketPanel does not require a connection to the Pitot or Static lines. Thus, if you get a plugged line, the PocketPanel will continue to operate normally.
 
Personal preference would be to ditch the G5 and the steam gauges. I'd place an Aera 660 in the empty space above the radios. It's completely stand-alone if the power goes out, and provides backup mapping, navigation, and instrumentation suitable for VFR flight (yes, Ground-speed and Track-based, but that would do in a pinch).
 
Have you considered how you will do maintenance and further mods to the panel - without major surgery or on your back with your head under the panel?

Here is a post I recently put out on this subject: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=175159

A simple approach for your plane it to transform the lower edge of the panel to a skirt (where you have mounted all your switches and such) that stays in the plane when you pull the panel. This translates to a horizontal cut at the bottom of the panel to create the skirt, a piece of aluminum backing riveted on the back of the skirt and nutplates on the top of the aluminum backing so that the panel above the skirt can be removed.

Carl
 
Nice 3D Model! Just at this stage myself. I mocked up my panel in the fuselage and found a potential interference with the co-pilot stick and the cabin heat knob when fully extended. Moved it further to the right. You should check your alternate air and cabin heat knobs for stick interference.
 
Toggle switches

I'll never put toggle switches (especially unguarded) at the bottom of the panel. Too much opportunity to damage the switch or inadvertently activate (deactivate) the switch when entering or exiting.
 
Pretty Impressive....

......computer work! Way beyond my pay grade and technical intellectual level!

Anyway....my input would be to go along with ditching the round dials. How much backup do you really need? If you really want to keep them, then consider moving them down and out of your line of sight and instead, put your radio up there (IN your line of sight). No sense in having to look down to change freq when flying formation or in the weather. The F-15 was specifically designed this way...and it works well.
 
2 ADAHRS and eliminate the steam gauges, and the G5. Mount the GMU-25s to a rigid structural member vs. the back of the GDU.
 
I'll put my 2c in. I fly my own RV6 with all Garmin equipment, and I also hangar with a buddy with an RV6 with a very similar Garmin setup as yours. I fly both planes equally and my opinion is the big screen on the right is almost useless to me. They are both very capable IFR panels, but mine (picture below) puts all the screens at the pilot where they do the most good. No reaching across the passenger while you are bouncing around trying to hit the correct place on the screen. Granted one of mine is a 470, but all that display is right where you need it. Unless you do a lot of dual pilot flying, put the money in front of you.

yILOKTdtCRBGZ97Rl5wTcb-5YUVNE-hksQzL1SvQ_HOGooZfWIILCL-kMCQkGQt4ITNXopga2rlE_Fog5tBnXcq9y2xvejnxPffYi-pDF9lORjgiZ9kK76f5-yxpwzYNxgxksMPpDb0sAkUUo5VshLBXiJFqMhg-FUvWsldkiB5U2nhGcVEgkMaVLPSVYahhQnsQJii7ei8Ror7INbVsKWw9z4yjoWbpwTbmFhVJ3YyUWDj1nEd4NERrs8_kMMDjYopk0VssN_tCNH11AeXpD2u5TfwStlIlKa-WJ9KnlEqhcRgWcHeVyYLvncWIRRJCPT2tMhgghvWlWtVxOLs3nnGagmbdgSBPJ_yECeONAREjj0IJ6-1vKB_32VPlbLvFpdfH0sxgr9oWm7LV_PEQ-_Vc4qy-w7BQsASdDZW1Mn044w9LFziNPmc_2D4eRPlpUdrmWeuSJjwFdff5yH4pP3rrkwhbZiQlLuwPjEz61mTVkbniFF15mX5JXFtPmlB8YomZaWhIXLcnh4NEsFAleCqISRontMe1IbXNi9Eb2oDgMHHx8NiMJz6MP-PkXEO0wS6k2QrYzdpGojFTJ9bb8oKSX1_nUrqnWprpK0XoS6Zjp8jxjGYvtYIxyy5D7BOkTsTbuYWcMz6FSzlFoXTgCBs6XfvgAm8dJ66RH6Xa9g7-DTXWuxv09sFcvZnMW_VtWuQjlD88GLyeqo87RrWZET_SKCSgbjKOTrPKGAWEctcKoJg=w800-h600-no
 
I'll put my 2c in. I fly my own RV6 with all Garmin equipment, and I also hangar with a buddy with an RV6 with a very similar Garmin setup as yours. I fly both planes equally and my opinion is the big screen on the right is almost useless to me. They are both very capable IFR panels, but mine (picture below) puts all the screens at the pilot where they do the most good. No reaching across the passenger while you are bouncing around trying to hit the correct place on the screenSNIP

I?ll have to be a contrarian on this. I had dual screen SkyViews in the RV-10 with the GTN-650 in the middle. The screens were biased left but the GTN-650 was in the middle. The left screen was PDF and moving map, the right screen was for engine monitor and as the moving map ?scratch pad? - running out range to look down track for weather and such. When you consider the clunky GTN-650 manipulation for IFR flight you want that tiny screen close to you - so I don?t recommend putting the 650 over in right field.

I flew a lot of right seat time with this setup as well - very comfortable.

Carl
 
I flew a lot of right seat time with this setup as well - very comfortable. Carl[/QUOTE said:
I agree mine is definitely not right seat friendly. My normal view is the engine monitor split screen on the pfd and maps/charts on the mfd. I find the 650 easy to operate where it is. What I do not show is my iPad mounted on the left stick. Most of my flight planning and reroutes are banged into the iPad and sent to the panel via Bluetooth. The only thing I touch the 650 for is approach procedures.
 
Good show!

Comments:
* For now, put the autopilot and comm at the top where they’re more accessible. Use long service loops so that you can relocate them;
* Making provision for a GTN now is a geat idea;
* The G5 does not need pitot/static inputs, although that gives you an ADHRS backup. It also gives you a backup if the left screen poops out;
* G3X already gives you alerts, so you don’t need discrete warning lights, nor a Hobbs meter;
* On your wiring diagram, label the serial ports on each device. PM me your email and I’ll show you what I did;
* If you plan on flying actual IFR, put strobe and pitot heat next to each other. One goes on, the other off going in and out of clouds;
* Where are autopilot disconnect and TO/GA?
* You have the option of wiring the right screen as a second PFD, for when you fly with a second pilot. The real difference is when that screen is not split, does the attitude display (PFD) fill the screen or the MFD? I think you'll find that full screen MFD on the right is far enough away that the full screen adds little value over a half screen display.

Overall, this is one of the better panel designs to be put out for comment.
 
SWITCHES
(SPST) Nav (position) lights
(SPST) Landing lights
(SPST) Taxi lights
(DPDT) Strobe/WigWag (Three position: Up is strobe, Down is WW, Center is off)
G'day Ryan
You have the controller for the Flyleds The Works kit (thank you!), where the wigwag function controls the landing lights. I would change these to:
  • Position lights
  • Strobe lights
  • Landing/Wigwag on a progressive switch. (Off/Landing/Wigwag)
  • Taxi lights
I would also combine Position and Strobe lights on a progressive switch (Off/Posn/Strobe).

 
throttle/prop/mix lever spacing

I was concerned several yrs ago that I spaced my cables too close. It was never a problem and the advantage is that your palm can touch all three for takeoff. After five yrs I like it more than ever.

IMG_20190811_151706_zpsot09jbpo.jpg
 
Wow, so much to unpack here. I am very grateful for all the feedback. I have a lot of replying to do, and even more thinking! An alternate layout might be in the cards now.

EDIT: A few things right off the bat:

I'm not married to the G5, in fact I consider it totally redundant and optional. I will look into the Dynon Pocket Panel. I do definitely want some kind of backup indicators that run off the pitotstatic system though. Maybe steam airspeed/altitude only and ditch the standby display altogether.

Paul: Regarding the switches, I think I saw the strobe/WW suggestion in one of the installation manuals but maybe I was looking at the wrong one. Progressive switches for pos/strobe and landing/ww make total sense and I'm going to change to that.

Will investigate the Avidyne unit, however it will probably be a loooong time before I make the jump to an IFR navigator (I don't even have my instrument rating yet).

Lighted indicators: I considered having a big row of all sorts of lights but narrowed down to the two that I really want even if the whole G3X fails: Oil pressure and voltage.

Moving the comm radio up: I wanted to do that but it would involve cutting a lot more of the sub panel away. That radio is deeeep. Worth re-considering though.

Engine control spacing: I never thought of moving them closer together. Interesting idea and may give me more precious horizontal space down there. I'll play around with it!

Alternate layout: I do have an alternate layout that I haven't finished yet or taken screenshots of. Basically it is a portrait 7" display as the PFD far left and a 10" MFD center-left. The radio stack would be center-right. This frees up a lot of real estate and allows me to not have to re-locate the sub panel ribs. I will take some time to explore that layout
 
Last edited:
...

Lighted indicators: I considered having a big row of all sorts of lights but narrowed down to the two that I really want even if the whole G3X fails: Oil pressure and voltage.
...
No need. Your EFIS will give you an audio indicator that something is amiss and if Garmin is like the Dynon, it will highlight the problem. With the Skyview, the oil pressure will go flashing red and you will hear "Oil Pressure, Oil Pressure". I can't recall if says "Low Oil Pressure" or just "Oil Pressure". Either way, it will get your attention.

Take a look at the panel page on my website, while I haven't updated it in years, the concepts remain the same. IE. Lay your switches out by phase of flight, not function. Maybe even put some spaces between them so you don't bump one, when turning on or off another.

Two things that I did that have really worked out well and I would do again in a heart beat is to install a DJM throttle quadrant and the switch sub panels.

The switches are placed around the quadrant in such a way that in the event of a go-a-round, I can push and hold all the levers forward, the carb heat, and toggle up the flaps without removing my hand from the quadrant. (I'm in the process of possibly converting to a CS prop and nothing has to change other then the cover plate of the quadrant.)

The switches recessed using hardware store aluminum angle (It nestles better than aviation AA.) This has made making changes very easy as I only have to remake one small section. Even better is that I mounted red electroluminescent strips above each row of switches and breakers, bathing them in a nice warm red glow at night.

My panel is made up of three removable sections, again, it makes for easier maintenance and I have replaced all three sections at one time or another and am getting ready to redo my radio stack in the near future.

Good luck, you are on the right track!
 
Last edited:
PS. I would add a Garmin 660 mounted in an AirGizmo to your radio stack. That way, in the event your main EFIS goes belly up, you can navigate and keep upright with your backup display.

With this setup, you won't need an extra alternator feeding a second battery because you will have backup batteries on both EFIS's, your PocketPanel (I don't really know about the little Garmin), and your 660.

In the event of a total electrical failure, you won't have a radio but there are procedures for dealing with that. Heck, why not make a bracket to hold a handle radio and keep it charged? The range isn't great but in the event of an electrical failure when IFR you will have pretty much everything covered.
 
Engine control spacing: I never thought of moving them closer together. Interesting idea and may give me more precious horizontal space down there.

If prop and mixture are vernier, you don't need to worry about keeping your hand on them on takeoff -- they're not going anywhere. In a multi-engine with lever controls, then it makes sense to keep your hand on all the engine controls. I think it's more important that you be able to get your fingers around each control -- that's what I made sure of when I redid the engine controls on the -9A when I added the constant speed prop. The carb heat wound up under and between throttle and prop because I didn't want to redo the whole panel...

Ed
 
Extra large panel

Just curious. Have you tried installing the extra tall panel? I couldn't find an easy way to slide it in place and finally gave up and went back to the standard. I want to be able to pull the panel as a unit to work back there.
I also fabricated two shelves. They span from the panel to subpanel at the bottom. One each side. Hinges hold them front and aft. Easy to pull a pin and drop the panel either direction or pull two pins and drop it. They really stiffen the panel and make an extra space to mount remote electronics.
I fabricated cardboard mock ups of every box to locate them.
 
My thoughts - worth what you paid for them
1. Mag/start switches. Very clever design, but I think in practice it will be awkward holding two switches up with one hand. At best, you?ll push harder than needed, possibly shortening the lifetime of the switches. I?d re-wire them, keeping the safety features, thru a regular push to start switch.
2. G5. For vfr do what you want. For ifr, I?m still of the minority opinion that you want your last-ditch backup as independent of the main panel, including software, as possible. I?d favor a GRT mini, second choice a Dynon.
3. Agree with others, there?s no need for a Hobbs meter.
4. I think having the com low is okay, as long as you control it thru the EFIS, so you really don?t have to look at it. I presume the efis will also show music-select and or music volume. I think I use the music volume more than any other audio knob/button!
5. Autopilot gets used a lot, the higher the better.
6. My personal preference is flaps right, fuel pump left, of the engine controls, just because flaps right is standard.
7. You can buy colored vinyl that slips over toggle switches. I like red for fuel pump, master, maybe trim cut-off, etc. Yellow for pitot heat, etc.
8. Right seat PTT seems awkward for a right seat pilot with right hand on stick. If intended just for passenger/safety pilot, ok.
9. You will find it a challenge to be avoiding a tangle of wires, headsets, music sources, etc., on the seats, when entering/exiting. I would suggest moving headset jacks, music inputs, USB charger, to the back. Maybe the horizontal brace.
 
Another input

My 2 cents: dump the round dials and the Hobbs meter. Cut out the panel for the 650 and the G5 and put in blanking plates for now. Wire up the harness for the 650 and G5 now.

You'll thank your past self when you want to make it IFR in the future. :D
 
This design leaves open the possibility of preserving the canopy release handle, if I choose to run it out to the panel.
Except you'll have the two sides of the handle covering part of the two round gauges... The stock configuration is for the handle to be horizontal. Of course, you could cut/re-weld the shaft and mount the handle vertically but that seems like a lot of work. Just lower them below the handle hole.

BobTurner said:
1. Mag/start switches. Very clever design, but I think in practice it will be awkward holding two switches up with one hand. At best, you?ll push harder than needed, possibly shortening the lifetime of the switches. I?d re-wire them, keeping the safety features, thru a regular push to start switch.
I have three toggles in mine, Off-On for each mag, and Off-(on) for start, all side-by-side. The Start toggle has a flip cover so I can't bump it in flight.
Holding the single toggle up with one finger is easy, holding two up would just need another finger, or you could lift both with the side of one finger.

I thought about using an Off-On-(On) setup on the impulse mag but decided I wanted both mag switches to be in the same position when "on," and I didn't want to accidentally hit the starter if I checked mags in flight. Using Off-On-(On) for both (presumably wired so bumping just one in flight won't trigger the starter) is a clever solution.

I also thought about clever wiring arrangements that would lock out the non-impulse mag when starting, but decided i'd rather have direct control over everything.
 
Just curious. Have you tried installing the extra tall panel? I couldn't find an easy way to slide it in place and finally gave up and went back to the standard. I want to be able to pull the panel as a unit to work back there.

I saw your log actually. It was kind of puzzling because the full size/width panel looks like it should fit! Was the canopy deck the way? Even given the trouble you pointed out, I was going to still give the full-width single piece panel a try.
 
Rather then use a longer panel, why not install a recessed switch/breaker panel at the bottom. It protects the switches and is easy to replace, if you make changes in the coming years.
 
They are both very capable IFR panels, but mine (picture below) puts all the screens at the pilot where they do the most good. No reaching across the passenger while you are bouncing around trying to hit the correct place on the screen. Granted one of mine is a 470, but all that display is right where you need it. Unless you do a lot of dual pilot flying, put the money in front of you.

Thanks for this suggestion. I also worry a great deal about how useful that big (and expensive) display will be all the way over in front of the passenger. I had an older layout that's closer to yours:



This is the question that really keeps me up at night. I think I might be much happier with two displays right in front of me rather than going for the [beautiful] symmetrical layout. I think I'm going to pick this design back up and take it more seriously.

Best of both worlds :p
Good from both seats.

That one's outrageous! And looks amazing.

2 ADAHRS and eliminate the steam gauges, and the G5. Mount the GMU-25s to a rigid structural member vs. the back of the GDU.

Isn't the reason they provide mounting holes on the back of the GDUs to attach the GMU devices? I though the panel would be more than rigid enough.

* For now, put the autopilot and comm at the top where they?re more accessible. Use long service loops so that you can relocate them;

You and a couple other people recommended this. I struggle with this idea though because of interference with the F-697 channel and F-643 rib behind the sub-panel. The rib looks to be structural, so I don't want to touch it, and the channel would be a pain to chop up. Locating it far down eliminates this problem. Garmin needs to make their radios (and GTN) 1-2" shorter! I'm not too worried about having it lower, since lots of my interaction with the radios will be through the G3X.

* The G5 does not need pitot/static inputs, although that gives you an ADHRS backup. It also gives you a backup if the left screen poops out;

My thoughts - worth what you paid for them
2. G5. For vfr do what you want. For ifr, I?m still of the minority opinion that you want your last-ditch backup as independent of the main panel, including software, as possible. I?d favor a GRT mini, second choice a Dynon.

I'm less and less convinced the G5 buys me much after this thread. Probably will eliminate. That said...

Drop g5 and second panel, add them back in when you go IFR

I know little about IFR flight. Help me to understand what does the G5 (or any other standby display) provide that's necessary for IFR?

* G3X already gives you alerts, so you don?t need discrete warning lights, nor a Hobbs meter;

No need. Your EFIS will give you an audio indicator that something is amiss and if Garmin is like the Dynon, it will highlight the problem. With the Skyview, the oil pressure will go flashing red and you will hear "Oil Pressure, Oil Pressure". I can't recall if says "Low Oil Pressure" or just "Oil Pressure". Either way, it will get your attention.

I'm glad people are mentioning the lights (and others mentioning the steam gauges). It means I was on the right rack being on the fence about them. I guess, being in the computer industry myself, I am reaching for every opportunity to have a backup without a computer between me and the thing being measured. I used to write software for embedded navigation displays and have seen some horrible stuff. I want backup instruments!

* If you plan on flying actual IFR, put strobe and pitot heat next to each other. One goes on, the other off going in and out of clouds;

This is easy enough. Makes sense and good future proofing!

* Where are autopilot disconnect and TO/GA?

AP enable is to the right of the mag switches. I figure I'll probably switch that one on right after the engine starts. It is a DPST switch to control both servos with one switch. TO/GA is to the right of the mixture control, but...

If it were me, I'd want the TOGA button next to the throttle.

Based on this suggestion, I'm going to move it to the left of the throttle.

Is nobody using an avionics master anymore?

This seems to be one of those never-ending debates. I find Bob Nuckolls's argument persuasive, although I'm likely going to set aside space for such a switch even if I don't drill a hole for it.

* You have the option of wiring the right screen as a second PFD, for when you fly with a second pilot. The real difference is when that screen is not split, does the attitude display (PFD) fill the screen or the MFD? I think you'll find that full screen MFD on the right is far enough away that the full screen adds little value over a half screen display.

I have not given enough thought to what exactly I plan to display on each screen during the various stages of flight. To be honest, I've never flown with a glass panel before so I'm guessing a lot.

1. Mag/start switches. Very clever design, but I think in practice it will be awkward holding two switches up with one hand. At best, you?ll push harder than needed, possibly shortening the lifetime of the switches. I?d re-wire them, keeping the safety features, thru a regular push to start switch.

Thanks! I originally had a push to start switch but realized I could save panel space and keep the safety feature by just going with two momentary switches. Since they're right next to each other I didn't think it would be that awkward to hold them both up, but I'll think about that.

3. Agree with others, there?s no need for a Hobbs meter.

I figured they're so cheap and if I'm going to have a pressure switch for the panel light anyway, I basically get the hobbs enable circuit for free. Maybe I'll ditch it.

6. My personal preference is flaps right, fuel pump left, of the engine controls, just because flaps right is standard.

Yes, others mentioned this too. I'll re-locate the flaps control to the right. I think fuel pump goes on right after startup(?) so that's why I have it farther left.

8. Right seat PTT seems awkward for a right seat pilot with right hand on stick. If intended just for passenger/safety pilot, ok.

Yea there will be a PTT on the right stick. The panel button is only there in case the right stick is removed.

9. You will find it a challenge to be avoiding a tangle of wires, headsets, music sources, etc., on the seats, when entering/exiting. I would suggest moving headset jacks, music inputs, USB charger, to the back. Maybe the horizontal brace.

Thanks, I am definitely going to explore locating at least the headset wiring aft.

Personal preference would be to ditch the G5 and the steam gauges.
If you have dual EFIS screens, (presumably) dual ADAHRS, and a backup mini-EFIS... why the steam gauges?
I agree, dump th steam, the G5 will suffice.
My 2 cents: dump the round dials and the Hobbs meter.

No love for non-computerized backup gauges here I see :)

Except you'll have the two sides of the handle covering part of the two round gauges... The stock configuration is for the handle to be horizontal. Of course, you could cut/re-weld the shaft and mount the handle vertically but that seems like a lot of work. Just lower them below the handle hole.

Auugh, this is definitely a gotcha I overlooked. I might do as others have done and just not run the handle out to the panel. Leave it back at the sub panel and just use it as a way to more easily release the canopy during building. Nobody's ever tried this thing in flight on a -7 have they?

Have you considered how you will do maintenance and further mods to the panel - without major surgery or on your back with your head under the panel?

Here is a post I recently put out on this subject: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=175159

Wow, this is really next level thinking. I was trying to cut down on the number of connectors since connectors = failure points and (sometimes) signal loss. But I agree, as it stands, my panel is effectively permanent and not-removable. I will have to reflect on this and see if I'm willing to make the complexity trade-offs needed to make the panel more maintainable.
 
I know little about IFR flight. Help me to understand what does the G5 (or any other standby display) provide that's necessary for IFR?
.

Standby EFIS (with its own battery), second nav, aux fuel pump, cabin static source, ... are all useless dead weight - unless the primary fails when you?re deep in the clouds. Then they become worth their weight in gold. Deciding what and how many failure modes you want to survive, and what ones you consider acceptable risks (after all, there?s only one crankshaft), is what makes the choices hard, and with endless debates.
 
My 2 cents:
Dump the portrait G3X (Post #35) - not needed as a navigation backup if VFR. If IFR the GTN 650 will be the extra (main) GPS navigator.

On the extreme left side of the panel you could put two (or up to four) small instruments and move the large display and center stack as much to the left as possible.

For the small instruments they could be the GRT Mini - X/AP which has EFIS and EMS displays and the Dynon Pocket or G5. Use the GRT as your EMS display instead of the G3X. This leaves the full G3X screen for EFIS and moving map. Only use the GRT EFIS display if the G3X fails (IFR). The Dynon Pocket/G5 would the third AH if the G3X and GRT disagree in IMC.

Other possible small instruments could be a steam gauge ASI and an independent AP such as the round Trio Pro Pilot.

From the left side of my panel I have four small size instruments, 10” Skyview , GTN 650 in the center stack and standard Vans Map Box. My Skyview and GTN look to be about 1 1/2” further to the left than in your latest design (post 35). The GTN is the primary IFR navigator and I would not want it any further to the right. With only two instruments you could move it even further left!

Fin 9A.
 
Last edited:
@Draker: Garmin's recommendation is not to mount the ADAHRS to the back of the GDU due to panel vibration. Some people fail the vibration testing / calibration routine because of it. In my RV-8, the single ADAHRS is mounted on a longitudinal member just behind the main spar.
 
Auugh, this is definitely a gotcha I overlooked. I might do as others have done and just not run the handle out to the panel. Leave it back at the sub panel and just use it as a way to more easily release the canopy during building. Nobody's ever tried this thing in flight on a -7 have they?
Nor on a -6. One of the previous owners of mine removed it and safety-wired the actuator to hold it locked. The handle didn't come with the plane so I bought one from Vans and installed it. I've had my canopy off twice, and that handle makes it a crapload easier to get it in and out... I did it solo once.

But I agree, as it stands, my panel is effectively permanent and not-removable. I will have to reflect on this and see if I'm willing to make the complexity trade-offs needed to make the panel more maintainable.
As someone flying a 20 year old RV, I can say with certainty that being able to easily maintain the space behind the panel is extremely valuable. The tip-up space behind the first panel only gets you so far.
 
I am more or less at the same stage. I added some more structures to check clearances etc.

You cannot have the GTN-650 too high up as it will interfere with the canopy release mechanism.

I also have two round gauges. One is for the EI Commander and maybe I'll add a PAI-700 compass.

A question for you: I have the Garmin components, but where did you get the CAD files for the switches, ELT panel and the other components.

fullsizeoutput_1308-L.jpg
 
Last edited:
I am more or less at the same stage. I added some more structures to check clearances etc.

You cannot have the GTN-650 too high up as it will interfere with the canopy release mechanism.

I also have two round gauges. One is for the EI Commander and maybe I'll add a PAI-700 compass.

A question for you: I have the Garmin components, but where did you get the CAD files for the switches, ELT panel and the other components.

WQKtow_H14nVKDtvlJ-VaPROZ7AuvtlZ0ID7vlrvtmtu2NyHa1errxFzQno4m2N3Gu4g8EDDi-D9pDki9I6x4CVjWFPFjCjGkKTwoiPeYN83IampKhW01KqrP3JFmSS4f0jc1Q7U1QOTzYdPnDxXCHBlwJdvI3dPk1R2m2nt6z6_aQqYpvZEyfZCntLYvMwsUWAkLVuBaYhSGjNn9l5V16hxNOXh39XvmDIlQPA_wTVBD1OqP2YeV-xqjfnBtegnB741PegQhEMgqry02cz63FICXugL6NH4E7oR5qlZflw30n0s5VNGLDagCG3RvUZWUJcw42u4i0A9Nr7FPsy6WNdjF0Dq5tJY82BZCjMMZKllFv1av2DhufHieJUXwOHVcQkkQfoAgUf9_TFD1F58IfeN-4zwyUqsILteBerxuAZL8fKOz44CdcK_8SR3eok_xZtqm-2ncN7HPR6vDnxb9JN-lHU7bWJm79H7EeqyJbc6yl-ZZRCypxJuvByBs5w9_LFf9kfTC2FpW82tQYfeb2R-dJ1YUjZLyEhEQ6v9YTVVgtsyAfyH620J5ZUzWt6sOQWtNycoOwOtPD_ZCNC8T1jGTtBQibXrNNYcvS8PuC3GkODTirXBnQ6L--oPyiTiy2z1vcuji1mAxS-YM7yFuyahpRn_SKobPyFLRpjPIFXc8U0=w800-h556-no

Photo not visible.
 
Here's a google photo:

Want to take dibs on how long it will last?

There are a few special accounts that Google does not randomly change links on. Nobody seems to be able to explain why. One theory is that migrated Picasa accounts don’t change and remain fixed. Who knows?
 
Last edited:
I am more or less at the same stage. I added some more structures to check clearances etc.

You cannot have the GTN-650 too high up as it will interfere with the canopy release mechanism.

I also have two round gauges. One is for the EI Commander and maybe I'll add a PAI-700 compass.

A question for you: I have the Garmin components, but where did you get the CAD files for the switches, ELT panel and the other components.

fullsizeoutput_1308-L.jpg

Garmin supplies downloadable 3D models on their web site for all of their G3X equipment. Go to their manuals page, and click G3X 3D Models - .STEP

For the switches, buttons, lamps and knobs, many of the components have 3D models available on DigiKey for download.

For the items without downloadable models, I just mocked up something simple based on the hole cutouts and (if available) drawings. I ended up doing my own models for the ELT remote, pull cables, vents, USB charger, hobbs, circuit breaker, parking brake handle, and round steam gauges. If anyone needs any of these I could figure out how to export the models.
 
Garmin supplies downloadable 3D models on their web site for all of their G3X equipment. Go to their manuals page, and click G3X 3D Models - .STEP

For the switches, buttons, lamps and knobs, many of the components have 3D models available on DigiKey for download.

For the items without downloadable models, I just mocked up something simple based on the hole cutouts and (if available) drawings. I ended up doing my own models for the ELT remote, pull cables, vents, USB charger, hobbs, circuit breaker, parking brake handle, and round steam gauges. If anyone needs any of these I could figure out how to export the models.


What CAD software are you using ?
Many of them have export functionality for STEP.
Solidworks was too heavy for my laptop so ended up with FreeCAD. It reads IGN and STEP files.
 
Back
Top