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How to tell if the airworthiness cert is ELSA.

SantosDumont

Well Known Member
I’m thinking about partnering in an already built RV-12 and getting my LSRM and going to Rotax class so I can do my own annuals/condition inspections.

As far as I understand LSRM covers SLSA and ELSA RV-12s but not EAB.

When I look up the airworthiness cert of the FAA how can I tell the difference between ELSA and EAB?
 
FAA registry for mine says:

Classification Experimental
Category None, Operating Light-Sport Kit-Built

I just looked up another RV-12 operating from our field, it says the same thing. Probably pretty consistent.
 
E AB built inspections are fine, if you are the original builder, or have your AP, I believe.

Someone here is bound to correct me, if I am wrong.

If your plane is a E-LSA built RV-12, then you need the 16 hour E-LSA inspection course offered by Rainbow, or others. I believe there is a class up near Van's in Aurora, OR this Sept?

In other words, partnering with an owner with a E-LSA built RV-12 takes less schooling time, to do your inspection annuals.

A Sport LSA requires much more schooling to do 100 hr inspections on, because it can be used for commercial flight school instruction, and the liabilities incurred with flying as a business or for profit, by a flight school.

The FAA registration online under FAA Aircraft registry should state:

Classification "Experimental"

Category "None Operating Light Sport Kit Built"
 
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LSR-M is for SLSA only. For an ELSA RV-12 you need the LSR-I (Inspector)
BTW, you do not need the Rotax class to do the condition inspection, but I highly recommend you get it anyway.

For an E-AB RV-12 the Reg info will list Experimental under the Classification, and Amateur Built under the Category and the list manufacturer will typically be the builders name.

For E-LSA the registration will still list Experimental under the Classification, but will be Operating Light Sport under the Classification, and Van's Aircraft Inc will be listed under manufacturer (if it was registered properly, a few were not).
 
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LSR-M is for SLSA only. For an ELSA RV-12 you need the LSR-I (Inspector)

Scott, I don't think this is entirely correct.

According to this FAA guide, AIR-230 it says that LSRM can perform maintenance on and inspect either SLSA or ELSA.

It looks to me like LSRI is equivalent to getting the repairman cert for a EAB except that you can get it for an ELSA that you own but did not build. Interesting that LSRI can perform annual inspections but not 100hr inspections.
 
E AB built inspections are fine, if you are the original builder, or have your AP, I believe.

I don't have the time to take years off of work to get A&P, but I can take a few weeks off to get LSRM. The only LSRM course I've been able to find is a two week course at Rainbow in Missouri. If anyone else knows of another that's not in the middle of nowhere, I'd be interested in doing that so I could leverage my hotel points and be near civilization while I'm doing the course. Otherwise I guess I can rent an RV and drive out there.
 
Scott, I don't think this is entirely correct.

According to this FAA guide, AIR-230 it says that LSRM can perform maintenance on and inspect either SLSA or ELSA.

It looks to me like LSRI is equivalent to getting the repairman cert for a EAB except that you can get it for an ELSA that you own but did not build. Interesting that LSRI can perform annual inspections but not 100hr inspections.

Correct, but since you were asking about the difference between EAB and ELSA, I assumed you are not potentially looking at owning an SLSA.

There would be no point in getting the LSRM rating if owning an ELSA. The LSRI is all that is needed and can be obtained by taking a weekend class, vs a few weeks for the LSRM.
 
Correct, but since you were asking about the difference between EAB and ELSA, I assumed you are not potentially looking at owning an SLSA.

There would be no point in getting the LSRM rating if owning an ELSA. The LSRI is all that is needed and can be obtained by taking a weekend class, vs a few weeks for the LSRM.

Ah yeah we're thinking about forming a flight club so SLSA would be preferred, but looks like we could make ELSA work if all the members are equity members. But then I would need LSRM to do the 100hr inspections.

I think I would prefer to do LSRM just to have the rating and so I could log the time to eventually get A&P.
 
I think I would prefer to do LSRM just to have the rating and so I could log the time to eventually get A&P.

That makes sense. I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure that any work you do that can count towards qualifying for the A&P rating, has to be done under the tutelage of another A&P.
 
That makes sense. I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure that any work you do that can count towards qualifying for the A&P rating, has to be done under the tutelage of another A&P.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but wouldn't an LSRM also allow him to do inspections on other peoples E-LSA and/or S-LSA charge for it?

I realize that this would be pretty rare, as most owners will get their own LSRI, but it could happen.
 
Maybe I'm remembering wrong but wouldn't an LSRM also allow him to do inspections on other peoples E-LSA and/or S-LSA charge for it?

I realize that this would be pretty rare, as most owners will get their own LSRI, but it could happen.

Yes, but as crazy as it sounds, the way the order is currently written, even though he would have some level of certification as an aircraft mechanic, I don't think the FAA currently recognizes time worked at that level to apply towards an A&P rating.
 
Yes, but as crazy as it sounds, the way the order is currently written, even though he would have some level of certification as an aircraft mechanic, I don't think the FAA currently recognizes time worked at that level to apply towards an A&P rating.

I agree....
 
E AB built inspections are fine, if you are the original builder, or have your AP, I believe.

Someone here is bound to correct me, if I am wrong.
"

Okay, here’s the correction:
E AB built inspections are fine, if you are the original (or one of the original) builder(s) AND THE FAA HAS GIVEN YOU a ‘limited repairman ‘ certificate, or have your A&P.
 
It seems like at least one FSDO has interpreted the requirement in 65.77(b) of 30 moths "practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings" to include spending 30 months performing the duties of LSRM.

https://www.aviatorshotline.com/sites/aviatorshotline.com/files/lsa_repairman_to_airframe__powerplant.pdf

Quoting the article... "Now that the Light Sport rule is in place"

Can you point me to that rule? This is the first I have heard of this.

The current FAR and FAA Order still specifiy -

Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator

Do you know anything about what they accept for documentary evidence to prove meeting the 30 month requirement?
In the past it has required a letter from a second party that could personally attest to the applicates experience (usually contains an accompanied list of all of the different processes and procedures they had gained experience in.
 
Quoting the article... "Now that the Light Sport rule is in place"

Can you point me to that rule? This is the first I have heard of this.

The current FAR and FAA Order still specifiy -

Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator

Do you know anything about what they accept for documentary evidence to prove meeting the 30 month requirement?
In the past it has required a letter from a second party that could personally attest to the applicates experience (usually contains an accompanied list of all of the different processes and procedures they had gained experience in.

When I got mine a few years back, we (me and the FSDO inspector - he was extremely helpful in my quest!) put together a package listing all of the work I had done in my previous years working on my old Grumman (under the tutelage of an A&P), as well as my early restoration work on Cubs, plus the logged time I had building a few E-AB’s. What counted was that he had a package to fall back on when issuing his signature on my paperwork saying I qualified. That package is probably still sitting in his filing cabinet, and no one else will ever look at it.

Now understand that they have since changed the rules, and you can;t count E-AB building time towards your A&P, so you can;t follow the path I used.

Paul
 
Do you know anything about what they accept for documentary evidence to prove meeting the 30 month requirement?

Well for one, I don't know anything, I'm just trying to learn what the available options are.

I'm not an ASI but I don't see why a logbook full of SLSA or ELSA maintenance wouldn't be satisfactory evidence. If a LSRM is authorized to perform 100hrs and annuals on LSAs why wouldn't that be satisfactory experience? SLSA/ELSA happen to have both airframes and powerplants!
 
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Well for one, I don't know anything, I'm just trying to learn what the available options are.

I'm not an ASI but I don't see why a logbook full of SLSA or ELSA maintenance wouldn't be satisfactory evidence. If a LSRM is authorized to perform 100hrs and annuals on LSAs why wouldn't that be satisfactory experience? SLSA/ELSA happen to have both airframes and powerplants!

I am not tryin to debate with you just trying to gain some knowledge if things have changed.

I would still like to see a link to the "new rule" that was mentioned in the article, if you or anyone else can point me to that. That would answer a lot of questions.

Without having that, but knowing a bit how the FAA thinks regarding these subjects, I would be surprised if this is a universal interpretation within all of the FAA (though I hope I am wrong).
Reason for that is that if the only experience an A&P applicant has is on LSA aircraft, they are going to be lacking a lot of knowledge when it comes to taking the practical and written tests (based on my experience of many years working as an A&P on LSA and non LSA aircraft). And the fact that there has been no change to the FAR.
 
I am not tryin to debate with you just trying to gain some knowledge if things have changed.
I would still like to see a link to the "new rule" that was mentioned in the article, if you or anyone else can point me to that. That would answer a lot of questions.
Without having that, but knowing a bit how the FAA thinks regarding these subjects, I would be surprised if this is a universal interpretation within all of the FAA (though I hope I am wrong).
Reason for that is that if the only experience an A&P applicant has is on LSA aircraft, they are going to be lacking a lot of knowledge when it comes to taking the practical and written tests (based on my experience of many years working as an A&P on LSA and non LSA aircraft). And the fact that there has been no change to the FAR.

Back a looooong time ago when I got my A&P, ONLY work on Type Certified aircraft counted toward the A&P requirements. I'm talking late 60s - early 70s.
 
My take from the article was that the "new rule" was the LSRM certification since the article is from 2012.

The article said that the 30 months just qualified him to be eligible to meet the minimum requirements for the A&P exams and that he still had to study the materials and pass the tests.

I also think that anyone who gets LRSM after the two week course with the attitude that they actually know anything is gonna find their way into trouble.

If I go that route I'm definitely going to have some A&P mentors because even if I have the authority to sign something off it doesn't mean I actually have the experience to know anything.
 
If I go that route I'm definitely going to have some A&P mentors because even if I have the authority to sign something off it doesn't mean I actually have the experience to know anything.

Keep in mind that having an A&P Certificate is NOT a blank check to do anything you want to.
For example: An A&P may not overhaul an engine unless he/she has, in the past, overhauled an engine of the same make & model under the supervision of another qualified A&P.
 
Keep in mind that having an A&P Certificate is NOT a blank check to do anything you want to.
For example: An A&P may not overhaul an engine unless he/she has, in the past, overhauled an engine of the same make & model under the supervision of another qualified A&P.

Mel is right.
The experience requirements specify "type specific training"

Example - I have lots of experience but none on jet aircraft so if a guy asks me to change the ignitor on his right side engine, I can't do it without supervision.
 
Ugh....So... All work performed as an LSRM can and does count towards getting your A&P via work experience, so long as it's an aircraft which has had an A/W. In other words, time spend building an aircraft doesn't count. (it used to count). It may be work on an S-LSA, E-LSA, or AB. As an LSRM, you are self-supervised. No A&P is involved. Because anyone can work on AB, that time would also count despite it being an RV14, or other non-LSA. LSRM allows you to work and inspect (cond & 100 hr) S-LSAs. It allows you to inspect e-LSAs (cond). Anyone can work on E-LSAs.

As for "type specific training"... The FAA is openly very loose with that concept...Go read the manual.
 
Ugh....So... All work performed as an LSRM can and does count towards getting your A&P via work experience, so long as it's an aircraft which has had an A/W. In other words, time spend building an aircraft doesn't count. (it used to count). It may be work on an S-LSA, E-LSA, or AB. As an LSRM, you are self-supervised. No A&P is involved. Because anyone can work on AB, that time would also count despite it being an RV14, or other non-LSA. LSRM allows you to work and inspect (cond & 100 hr) S-LSAs. It allows you to inspect e-LSAs (cond). Anyone can work on E-LSAs.

As for "type specific training"... The FAA is openly very loose with that concept...Go read the manual.

Means nothing unless you can point us to official documentation for someone to show the FAA person that is evaluating their A&P application.

And regarding the type specific training, I have read about it, quite extensively. It’s the same old problem that to a large degree it is at the discretion of the FAA ASI evaluating a situation. Ask 20 ASI’s and you will get 20 different answers.
 
look at FAA Advisory Circular # 65-32A, appendix 3. You will find this statement about meeting the experience requirement in Part 65, § 65.77. This statement was also included in the original 2006 version of A/C 65-32.


A repairman (LSA) with a maintenance rating may document time worked on LSA. To apply for a mechanic certificate with airframe or powerplant rating, the repairman must document at least 18 months each of practical experience, working on either airframes or powerplants, or at least 30 months of practical experience working on airframes or powerplants concurrently. One month’s practical experience is 160 hours of documented time. This time includes all time working on SLSAs and only condition inspection time on ELSA aircraft. Documentation should be in a written format, such as a log showing the date and number of hours spent performing the work, type of work performed, and the registration number of the aircraft the work was performed on. The log entries must be verifiable, which can be accomplished by either statements and/or initials from the individual’s employer or supervisor or owner of the aircraft following each entry in the repairman’s logbook

Something other than generalize statements…….

Thank you for posting it.
 
Cammy Patch of Glass Cockpit Aviation in Boise, ID did in fact get her A&P after her LSRM-A. She may be able to shed more light on the actual documentation. I do know that she meticulously documented everything she did as an LSRM-A. And documentation seems to be the major key here.
 
When I got my A&P test approval last year I listed my RV builds in my experience along with plenty of certified aircraft experience. The inspector said he could not count that but it didn't matter in my case because of the rest. Interestingly, he commented that maintenance of an EAB after the AWC could be counted since it was then a certificated aircraft. Don't know how "official" that view is but it's worth discussing with your inspector.
 
Lots of different opinions for sure... When I was ready to submit for my LSRI-A, I had to go through three different FSDO employees before I finally found one that really knew about the Repairman-Inspection rating. The first two wanted to argue about only needing a two-day class and having the authority to inspect my own ELSA. It's a bad feeling when you're talking to the FAA and made to feel like you have to teach them. Each time I gently just ended the conversation and called back and spoke to someone else.

If anyone needs anything LSRM related from the Dallas/FTW FSDO, I highly recommend seeking out Aviation Safety Inspector Julius Sutton. He got it done for me and knew exactly what he needed from me and how to get the paperwork processed. It took about a month and I finally got my LSRI-A plastic card in the mail a couple of weeks ago from the FAA!
 
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