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How hard is Engine Installation really?

RayJr

Active Member
I'm building my first plane (RV14A) and I have very little engine experience. I managed to keep my lawnmower running and I've read Mike Busch's series of books. That's about all.

I just watched Flight Chops latest build vlog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Xu9NvXkto) where they get the engine installed and tested. Seems pretty complex. :confused:

I'm wondering how much of that is documented in the instructions and how much is just experience from guys who know their way around these things?

Also, I'm building fairly remotely and don't have a EAA chapter or any home builders nearby.
 
Not complex at all. Maybe a little cryptic for those who have never done it before....

Just four bolts attaching the engine to the mount. (Definitely need an engine hoist and a second person would be helpful but I installed mine by myself.)

One cable each for throttle, mixture, propeller governor (optional), and one for alternate air (highly recommended). Additionally, make sure you have a ground cable to an engine bolt (I recommend one of the bolts on the oil pan).

Fuel connections are mapped out in the plans and electrical connections to starter and alternator are fairly straightforward.

While it's useful to consider the project as a whole try not to get bogged down in "everything" you have to do. Concentrate on JUST the next step. Keep pushing forward.

Good luck!
 
Not complex at all. Maybe a little cryptic for those who have never done it before....

Just four bolts attaching the engine to the mount. (Definitely need an engine hoist and a second person would be helpful but I installed mine by myself.)

One cable each for throttle, mixture, propeller governor (optional), and one for alternate air (highly recommended). Additionally, make sure you have a ground cable to an engine bolt (I recommend one of the bolts on the oil pan).

Fuel connections are mapped out in the plans and electrical connections to starter and alternator are fairly straightforward.

While it's useful to consider the project as a whole try not to get bogged down in "everything" you have to do. Concentrate on JUST the next step. Keep pushing forward.

Good luck!

Thanks Fred. Just the response I was hoping for :)
 
i was asking myself exactly the same question years ago. firewall forward looked overwhelming in first place but turned out to be no drama at all.

just take your time and do it step by step... attching the exhaust, airbox, engine controls, running fuel/oil hoses, ignition/sensor wires etc. etc.

a lot of work but nothing undoable. just don't put yourself in a hurry a get a second person to check what you did.

attaching the engine itself was (with the help of some other guys and an engine hoist) a no brainer.
 
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There are RV builders at Smith Falls and Carp, I am sure that if you reached out you could get help.

Indeed yes. I am a member at 245 in Carp.

I'm building in Cape Breton near CYQY. There is an EAA in NS about 220nm flight away.
 
i was asking myself exactly the same question years ago. firewall forward looked overwhelming in first place but turned out to be no drama at all.

just take your time and do it step by step... attching the exhaust, airbox, engine controls, running fuel/oil hoses, ignition/sensor wires etc. etc.

a lot of work but nothing undoable. just don't put yourself in a hurry a get a second person to check what you did.

Good to hear. Thanks!
 
The drawings from vans are very good. It's not at all complicated. A carbureted Lycoming is about as complicated as a 1950's car engine. Electronic fuel injection/electronic ignition makes things a little more complex, but still nothing crazy, just more time you have to spend reading manuals and looking at drawings.
 
Nothing unique to a RV engine installation. You can get many usable install tips by looking at a Cherokee or similar certified plane. Get friendly with the local mechanic, ask him to oversee your installation, or offer to pay for his time, money well spent.
Don’t over think the task, it’s just 100 small relatively easy steps.
 
There is some very good general information in the Tony Bingelis books. Google search his name and you will find “Firewall Forward” and “Engines” which may help. They are a little old, but the engines and installations haven’t changed much.
They are quick and informative reads.
 
You’ve gotten a lot of good, honest, and encouraging responses, and the thing to remember is that thousands of people have done this before you.

That said, when people ask this question, I always tell them that there’s firewall forward installations are incredibly simple … and incredibly easy to mess up in the details. Yes, its like a 1950’s automobile - very simple conceptually. But the results of a loose fitting or connection are much more serious in an airplane than in a car. There are just a lot of little details that are done a certain way in aviation because we learned through hard experience to do them that way.

If you have to learn it on your own, without someone else to show you, there are traps.

Bingelis is a great place to start - good books. Another would be Vic Syracuse’s book on inspections - lots and lots (and lots) of picture of stuff that was done WRONG and still got signed off by someone. There is probably more experience in those pages than anywhere else I know.

So yes - you can do it. But go at it with the idea that mistakes won’t necessarily be obvious, and you need to get some aviation-specific knowledge …. Which is out there. Learn to posts pictures here on VAF and to ask questions - then figure out who knows what they are talking about…. ;)
 
A couple of suggestions.

Work on a system until it is done, then start another system. Fuel, electrical etc.

If possible work on things that get hidden by other things first. Accessing some areas gets pretty hard as the installation progresses. Exhaust will cover up a lot of access.
 
Start by installing the items that are fixed in space (ie, not flexible) like the exhaust pipes, filtered airbox, oil cooler, etc. then move on to the more flexible things like control lines, heater hoses, fuel/oil hoses. It gets crowded pretty quick under the cowling. Buy some clear plastic vinyl tubing from your local hardware store and you can use it to mock up the various hoses and figure out what sizes you need. I did the same with the throttle/mixture control lines. If a standard size from Van's or Aircraft Spruce will work then you can save some $$$ from having to order a custom size.

Doug has a whole section on firewall forward articles here.
 
You've got 99% of the great advice you need above. Do it like the plans and it will turn out great. One thing that helped me is to remember that the engine is going to move - a lot. Think wet dog shaking. Keep that in mind, and give yourself appropriate slack on hoses, cables, wires, tubing and your installation will be robust.

Get some hemostats for the adel clamps - they work great. Don't forget to buy some all-metal locknuts.

More great info here:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq-technical-builder-items/

https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq/rv-14a-firewall-forward-360-view/
 
Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I'm making note of all the tips and checking into those books and links. The can say I am a lot less worried than this morning
 
got ya's

Make sure there is a fitting for your oil pressure gauge in the engine before you mount it. It is located just under the upper right engine mount. There may be a fitting there or just a plug. If no fitting, I use a AN823-2D 45 deg, it's 1/8 pipe thread into the engine and -2 flair for a hose to the gauge. Just a little Tight Seal on the pipe threads.
 
I might also add make sure you read section 5! There are some unforgivables that can be made fwf. For example aviation AN fluid fittings are 37 degrees and not 45. Also don’t use certain sealants/ Teflon tape, etc. Even though I built a -7A I have a set of the -14 plans and you are in good hands with those things, very detailed!
 
Adel

There is a variety of tools available for installing Adel clamps. Just search Adel clamp installation tool. I have never used any of them but some look better than tearing up your fingers.
 
There is a variety of tools available for installing Adel clamps. Just search Adel clamp installation tool. I have never used any of them but some look better than tearing up your fingers.

Is pure rage on that list because that's what we ended up using to install them :D
 
Adel

There are some modified vice grips that look promising.
Away from home some safety wire should work. If using two clamps wrap the clamps with wire separately, get the bolt or screw started, then unwind the wire, cut one wire and pull it loose.
 
Hanging engine

Once hung, the rest is just bites off the elephant.
I hanged mine solo. Took maybe 30 minutes. Here's my trick.
Make a drift pin from a cheap bolt.
Hang the engine from the hoist and insert one top bolt and hardware. Refer to plans and be absolutely certain the parts are installed correctly.
Insert the other top bolt and hardware. Now comes the trick.
Out the hardware in place on the bottom. Raise enough to slip in the drift pin.
Lower just till there's pressure to hold everything. Slip out the drift pin and slip in the bolt.
Repeat on the other lower.
Took me longer to torque than to install bolts and hardware.
 
Adel Clamps

Yes, I installed a (hundred) bunch of them FFWD... and you will also...
Yes, I sometimes used the small visegrip and pin to hold and align them...
Yes, I bruised my fingers and hands despite the "specialty tools...
Yes, I loudly voiced a variety of unplublishable words to sensitive ears...
Yes, Adel are a fabulous way to secure lines, hoses and wire bundles...

Here's a trick I thought of when the visegrips could not be used because of restricted space, (because you will have to install Adel clamps in cramped areas) and if you have big hands...

Use small 4" zip ties to hold the clamps almost completly closed. You will be able to move them as they are not tight yet. Use a pin to align the holes and voilà !!!

My cat's name is Adèle... That was before I had to deal with ADEL...
She would most probably have another name if I knew...:rolleyes:
 

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Adel Clamps

I came to terms with Adel Clamps as soon as I stopped using Hemostats, and started using BOTH the Vice Grip style Adel Clamp tool (aircraft tool supply) to get it closed, then Safety Wire to keep it closed. Installing these is now pretty quick....two mated together in about 2 minutes....with confidence.

Figure this out. Know what feeds and energizes your building energy and what sucks and consumes it. Don't let the adel clamp do that.
 
Safety Wire Trick

I used the safety wire to close the Adel clamp together and freed my hand to manipulate the through bolt. I didn't realize the picture wasn't focused but this picture is in my build log.
 

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Engine

Regarding the dynafocal mounts I have a short "bullet" that will come out the front when the bolt is lightly tapped in place and a longer bullet with a T handle welded in place. Between the two I can usually do the four mounts in 15/20 minutes.
 
Call you out

Regarding the dynafocal mounts I have a short "bullet" that will come out the front when the bolt is lightly tapped in place and a longer bullet with a T handle welded in place. Between the two I can usually do the four mounts in 15/20 minutes.

You do realize with that kind of statement, someone is going to call you out.
I am about to install my engine, I bet you a six pack at Osh that you cant do it in 20 min. I will even pay up front at the Osh beer tasting in a week or so.
 
You do realize with that kind of statement, someone is going to call you out.
I am about to install my engine, I bet you a six pack at Osh that you cant do it in 20 min. I will even pay up front at the Osh beer tasting in a week or so.

It is true my friend. If you remember I had a mag issue that caused me to have to repair a gear in my accessory case. I installed the mounting bolts multiple times. (didn't like leaving the engine dangling on the lift at night) I could easily get it done in that time frame. The first time took me about 45 minutes. The last time I did it, less than 10-15. That being said, it would appear some have more misalignment than others making the process longer for some.
 
I used the safety wire to close the Adel clamp together and freed my hand to manipulate the through bolt. I didn't realize the picture wasn't focused but this picture is in my build log.

There is safety wire bent over on Adel clamps similar to that on my airplane that were done 24 or 25 years ago.
 
I'm building my first plane (RV14A) and I have very little engine experience. I managed to keep my lawnmower running and I've read Mike Busch's series of books. That's about all.

I just watched Flight Chops latest build vlog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Xu9NvXkto) where they get the engine installed and tested. Seems pretty complex. :confused:

I'm wondering how much of that is documented in the instructions and how much is just experience from guys who know their way around these things?

Also, I'm building fairly remotely and don't have a EAA chapter or any home builders nearby.


Ray,

I to will be hanging my engine very soon and I'm happy you posted this as everyone here always has great information and advice. I want to share something that I saw being done at the build school which looked easy to do. After finishing the assembly of my engine it was then rolled to the testing area. They first put the engine mount on the engine as it was hanging off the hoist, and then bolted the mount to the testing cell. It is just another way of doing the same thing, but he does it solo. After doing two to three engines per day he said it was faster and easier to manipulate a mount than it is the engine. Made sense to me as I watched.

Ken
 
Returning to Ray's original question, i.e. "How hard is it?"...

It doesn't matter. You're going to do it anyway.
 
Beer bet

It is true my friend. If you remember I had a mag issue that caused me to have to repair a gear in my accessory case. I installed the mounting bolts multiple times. (didn't like leaving the engine dangling on the lift at night) I could easily get it done in that time frame. The first time took me about 45 minutes. The last time I did it, less than 10-15. That being said, it would appear some have more misalignment than others making the process longer for some.

I wish I could watch that. I would totally put beer money down on Jim or Jereme. Mine only took 45 the first time too and most of that was figuring out what went where and how the drift pin trick worked.
 
Hanging my RV-7 Engine in Less than 15 Minutes

I can hang the engine on my RV-7 in 12 minutes with no special tools and I made a video to prove it. Of course, if you don't have a 13 year old granddaughter to help it may take you a little longer. :D

https://youtu.be/oECmoxO2xN0

I also made a video showing how I install Adel clamps in a minute or two if you're interested.

https://youtu.be/Hjf-FqsJxHI

Just a quick note on the Adel installation, I flipped the Adel clamp on the fuel line the other direction so it was hanging down from the Adel on the engine mount, not above it as shown in the video.

These videos are extracurricular activities not performed at work. Yes I'm building an another RV when I'm not working. It's an addiction I can't seem to kick. ;)

I might be able to collect the beer after we close the booth some night at OSH this year. Stop by and say HI. :p
 
Good video

Good video.
I really like the twirl in the chair and the animal crackers. It is so easy to bribe kids; until they get their own car. Then it is like, “ See ya”
 
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