Buyer or builder affordability

Since the Vans Booth thread has ran its course and then derailed, I thought I would continue one of the thoughts in a new thread.

I'm in the camp that really enjoyed building my plane. BUT the reason I did was.... I wanted to fly. I'm a Dam mechanic/operator with a matching paycheck and such live a frugal lifestyle. I have absolutely no business owning airplane, especially an 2010 RV-7. I have a pretty tight monthly flying budget(glad I have free hangar rent)

The thought of plopping down $50, 80 or $100K makes me shiver. But I could budget for $600 radio or $$$ prop. I was realistic when I saw Vans cost estimator....I could do it if I shopped for bargains and took my time. NO way I could ever save the money to buy the plane I own. In fact, The price of new engines were going up faster than I could save and had to get a small loan to purchase a used (overhauled) engine.

A small loan at the end of the build we could swing, but lump sum for the whole airplane...I would be sleeping in it ALONE.

So I am like Bob Collins, only way I could afford my RV is by taking the babysteps building allows.

Building Cheap

I am on a mission to build my RV-8 as cheap as possible. My goal is 35K for my RV-8. Many have laughed at the idea. If I don't make it, I think I will be very close. It is possible to build one of these airplanes without spending alot of money

Edit: I just caught up on the thread Brian referenced. It has been said many times in that thread that it is cheaper to buy than to build. I disagree, at least for the RV-8. I cannot speak for the other models. It depends how you go about acquiring your parts how you equip your airplane. I would encourage anyone thinking about building, but limited on funds to research the number of bargains that are available to a builder. With some effort, it is possible to build many of the RV's cheaper than they can be purchased.

I think the point that was getting missed in the other thread is that if you have two people, one who builds over a 10 year period, paying as he goes, and another who saves money over 10 years, putting a little away every pay cheque, at the end of 10 years you have two people who didn't go into debt. One has a brand new airplane that he built himself. The other has a bank account that *in today's market* will buy a used RV which cost more to build than it can be sold for.

Whatever money a builder has spent building his RV, if the person saving has that same amount of money saved in a bank account he will be able to buy more airplane than the builder at the end of the day. No, you wont get a plane with zero time on it, but you can get one with pretty low time. Used RV's are an extremely good buy right now. Someone just posted an RV-6A with 180HP and full IFR panel, for $49k. You can't build the same aircraft for that money.

Buy for less

Not everone can but a few can build a better airplane for less than 49k with efis and CS prop and more HPand custom cowling with paint.
Bob

I have seen what I could buy with the money I'll spend building. Let's just say that's why I'm building. And if I thought for one second it would take me 5 or 10 years to build, I would never have started.

Every person's priorities, motivations and financial details are different.

When I told the wife that I wanted to build an airplane she was less than enthusiastic. She was insistent that I not borrow any money to fund the project. I bought my emp, wing and fuse kits from builders who started but weren't able to finish. That was back in 2001. I knew going in that it was going to be a long process. I stopped everything when the economy cratered in 2008. By 2010 I felt confident enough to spend the money on finishing the plane. Ordered the finish kit from Van's and got my engine.

I bought my engine off of Ebay from an engine shop in Phoenix. It cost me $14000 for a 0 SMOH O-320-D3G. Ordered my prop from Ed Sterba.

We're lucky in KC to have Airparts and B&B aircraft in the local area. Great places to buy hardware and aluminum at a significant discount. All in all about $38,000 in the project.

The build went slower than I wanted, but I was able to send two kids to college, build an airplane, take a few vacations, and not acquire any new debt. Like Roy said, I have a brand new 12 year old airplane.

Dave
RV-6
Flying in Phase II

Not IFR

Snowflake said:

I think the point that was getting missed in the other thread is that if you have two people, one who builds over a 10 year period, paying as he goes, and another who saves money over 10 years, putting a little away every pay cheque, at the end of 10 years you have two people who didn't go into debt. One has a brand new airplane that he built himself. The other has a bank account that *in today's market* will buy a used RV which cost more to build than it can be sold for.

Whatever money a builder has spent building his RV, if the person saving has that same amount of money saved in a bank account he will be able to buy more airplane than the builder at the end of the day. No, you wont get a plane with zero time on it, but you can get one with pretty low time. Used RV's are an extremely good buy right now. Someone just posted an RV-6A with 180HP and full IFR panel, for $49k. You can't build the same aircraft for that money.

Click to expand...

If that is the listing I'm thinking of, it's not close to an IFR panel. Doesn't meet most people's requirements for a day VFR if you are doing more than local poking around.

Glad to see this come back to life. I was going to start a poll, but now I'll just ask the question for those that think building is a cheaper way to go:

Do you keep track of build costs? (not labor, but cash money expenses like radios, sub kits, engines, etc)

Toobuilder said:

Glad to see this come back to life. I was going to start a poll, but now I'll just ask the question for those that think building is a cheaper way to go:

Do you keep track of build costs? (not labor, but cash money expenses like radios, sub kits, engines, etc)

Click to expand...

Of course we do. Now I can't say I haven't lost track of a few small items, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is possible to build cheap. As an example, I have most of an instrument panel, two Icom radios, good quality round gauges, transponder, color touch screen GPS (vfr) and have about $600.00 in the lot. Everything was purchased from reputable folks, here on the net.

Just because many bulders ultimately sell their planes for less than they spent building does not mean that the same airplane cannot be built for less than the asking price. Dave's RV-6 above is a great example. He could have gone with a used engine and saved even more, had he wanted.

I got my engine, an O-360-A1A for free. In fact, I'm $200.00 ahead on the engine. I have a total of $1,400.00 in an engine, nearly new Sensenich prop and polished spinner. Do not underestimate the ability of folks that are committed to building cheap.

costs

I kept a very close track of mine, but wouldn't dare divulge it here. My better half reads it too!!!

For what it's worth though, I was very frugal and purchased some used items. I always tried to have some cash around when something came up that I wanted so I could jump on the deal at the time. I still ended up with at least 10K more in it that I had anticipated.

Wouldn't trade it though for anything. Not the plane nor the experience.

Toobuilder said:

Do you keep track of build costs? (not labor, but cash money expenses like radios, sub kits, engines, etc)

Click to expand...

Nuts, bolts, crimp on connectors, tools, hangar cost during final assembly, shipping. Shipping again since you forgot or didn't even know about that right angle BNC you now need, etc.

I built a Kitfox, am now building a Zenith with friends and was planning to build an RV-10, but I bought one. It was very low time and was built by a very experienced and respected builder. Still got it for about the price of parts.

In this market; Dollar for dollar I believe it is better to buy.

On the other hand it is impossible to put a price on having built it.

I like it when someone asks if I built the Kitfox. Not so much with the RV-10.

I think if you don't know what you want, or aren't too picky, buying may be a better option. If you know exactly what you want, then the airplane you want doesn't exist unless you build it yourself to your specifications.

In other words - how much are you willing to settle in exchange for a discount in time and money? That is what the buy-vs-build decision came down to for me. I built.

Yes, you can build cheap and I'm the master at rooting out good deals... I understand completely. However, I suspect that the "frugal" builder is not the "typical" builder. In times past you would see lots of scrounging, but lately homebuilts seem to be all new, paid for at full retail.

It would seem that buying all new parts is the "new normal".

Not sure what category I fit into, other than NOT having a big savings account to buy a flying plane. ALWAYS had the dream, but over the years, life got in the way, and squashed it. Some really good friends and great guys put me on a slightly different path. Yep---I help them build RV's, a F1, a Lancair, and get some flight time to boot. So----instead of taking the money I was spending on things that werent getting me anywhere, I redirected it so I could buy parts. One advantage I have are friends with hangars, tools and equipment, although I do have quite a bit myself. I pay as I go, but dont get into debt over it. I surely didnt want to have a loan for a plane (or a pile of aluminum) hanging over my head. Actually, I think Doug Reeves gave me the idea on how to do it.

My 7A when finished, may not be the prettiest, the fastest, or the cheapest 7A ever built, but I certainly cant afford a $85,000 airplane either. Over the years, I listened to all of you, forum members and customers alike, and how you build and manage things. I combined it all into a program that works for me, so I can have something in the future, and still maintain my business, which does come first.
Empennage about 1/2 completed, a few minor mistakes, easily fixed, and getting to use some of the skills that all of you have taught me over the years.
And when its finished, HOPEFULLY I wont owe anything on it, and will still have fuel and maintenance money!
Tom

As a buyer AND builder I think I have some insight here. I bought my -7A for $80k, the builder had over $95k into it. When completed in 2006 it was a brand new airplane. Everything was new, engine, prop, paint, leather interior, etc.

The plane I am building will be new as well. A new zero time engine, prop and avionics will all be fitted and I suspect when I'm done I will have over $110k into it. (I do plan a lot of bells and whistles).

I don't make this post to compare these 2 airplanes because every airplane is different. I make this post as a reminder to compare apples to apples. Clearly an RV built with a used or overhauled engine wouldn't bring as much money as one fitted with a brand new zero time engine. Please keep that in mind when comparing value in this argument.

Where do I stand on this argument? If you're looking for just the material result, a flying airplane, it is cheaper to buy. (If you think you're a frugal master and can acquire parts cheap, then you can find a completed aircraft cheap too)

However, building the aircraft yourself provides just what the experimental segment is supposed to provide....EDUCATION AND RECREATION. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. I learn something everyday that I could only truly appreciate by getting my hands dirty. So while I believe it is more expensive to build than buy....in the end, the builder comes away with much more than just a flying airplane.

Inexpensive Build

I had 10 grand saved for a TMX-360,Dog got sick 10 grand gone,Dog still here.Started with a tail kit decided to buy wile driving home from Oshkosh 2001 at the time I was renting,logging 100 hours a year.As the build progressed flying stopped,life got in the way building stopped,just covered it up and walked away some 12 years later I have all the kits and accoutrements to build the plane and engine and enough spare parts to rebuild a second engine now I just need the time to put it all together.I know it is just a pile of parts,but to me it's MY PLANE,No show plane,just an airworthy inexpensive build with new or yellow tagged parts,group buys,let me buy it now before the price go's up,ebay from 08-11 was loaded with new no paperwork engine parts,Polish or auto shop paint,used panel&ipad will be fine. The FAA says "For my Education & Edification"and man that ain't no lie! When will it fly? Before I Die,I hope if not well then I tried! Sitting around the fire at Oshkosh this year I was asked how much would I take for all of it? 30 grand sounds OK. What would I do with the cash? Buy an RV-12 kit of course
R.Hill

ChiefPilot said:

I think if you don't know what you want, or aren't too picky, buying may be a better option. If you know exactly what you want, then the airplane you want doesn't exist unless you build it yourself to your specifications.

In other words - how much are you willing to settle in exchange for a discount in time and money? That is what the buy-vs-build decision came down to for me. I built.

Click to expand...

This is exactly the line of thinking I have. There is a lot of value (to me) with having certain things set up the way I want, and yes, I want some personal touches ("just because") as well.

So my plan is to purchase an aircraft with a very basic instrument panel and cockpit and do an extreme makeover. I expect to buy an aircraft for less $ than I could duplicate as a builder, then "make it mine" with the highly personalized systems makeover. As I see it, an airframe is an airframe, but the human factors issues are often highly specialized. I did it to an extent with the -8, and I think it is a great compromise.

More affordable to buy or build?

Just a guess, but I would suspect that those who can stay disciplined to building a basic RV (along the lines of Van's cost estimator) are most likely to get most of what they put into it should they sell. In this case, one probably couldn't buy for significantly less than it would cost to build.

Conversely, I would also suspect that those who added tons of bells and whistles and/or very high end instrument panels are most likely to see the most depreciation when they go to sell. In this case, one probably could buy for significantly less than it would cost to build.

If this logic holds true, and that may be a big if (I really don't know), it would provide some insight into how to keep an RV affordable.

Started in Jan of 2005, I'm finally getting close to having a flying airplane. When I started building the flying vs building $$ was much closer and I assume it will be again someday.
I would be lying if I haven't seriously considered some of the used aircraft for sale a the current prices.
Why have I kept building?
1. Because I now know how to rivet/proseal/rig etc but had FWF and wiring to learn.
2. I will have $65,000 ish in a 7 with a 0 time overhauled o-360 (time will tell if it was a good deal) fixed Catto, Oregon Aero seats, 2 screen G3X and no radios. $65,000 gets me a nice 7/8 with an o-320 and Vfr panel that I would absolutely love but want to make IFR one day. It also gets me a nice 4/6 with a lot of gas money, which I've really been considering.
3. Now that I've got the FWF/wiring mostly conquered I've got to hear/feel it run for the first time. There is also that first flight thing I hear is pretty cool too....