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You know its a bad landing when you're upside down!

Chuck Hagerty

Well Known Member
Well, here?s something that I obviously hoped I would never be writing about? but it happened, so now I?m just trying to make something positive out of a bad situation. Maybe this will help someone else to evaluate their own skills a bit more closely. On June 15, 2013 my RV 7A was out of phase one with about 50 total hours on her. She was flying great and I had already taken up two different CFI friends of mine for several hours, so I knew how she would handle with the weight of two people. My son was visiting from Raleigh NC and he wanted to go flying in our new plane. The day was perfect? blue skies and calm. We made it to the airport around 8:30 am. By 9 the plane was out of the hangar, the preflight was complete, instructions had been given and we were ready to take off. Everything went well, with a great one hour scenic tour over the Blue Ridge Mountains and a smooth landing at the end. We both had a great time and he really enjoyed the RV.

Immediately after the flight I called my wife to let her know we were down safely, and that our son had to leave and return to Raleigh. She then suggested that, since the day was so nice, we fly up to PA to visit my folks like we had wanted to do the weekend before. Of course, with very little arm twisting, I agreed and proceeded to fuel the plane, and look over the airport diagram and radio frequencies for our destination airport. I also called 1-800-WXBRIEF just to make sure the weather would remain good.

She arrived at the airport (W24 in Lynchburg, VA) around 11:30 am and by 11:50 we were strapped in and feeling the rush of heading down runway 10. Takeoff was nice and within a few minutes we were at 4,500? and headed north. The view over the Appalachian Mountains was beautiful and the ride was just a little bit bumpy since the winds had picked up a bit from earlier that morning. My wife had been up for 3 short hops previously in the RV, so this was not her first time in this piece of metal that had taken shape in our shop over the last several years. We were both enjoying the flight and she was taking pictures.

Ten miles out from our destination airport (KAOO) I announced our location and our intention to land. Another pilot, who was taking off, announced that he was doing so on RWY 030. Of course, you would assume that the winds would be favoring 030, but I spoke with this fellow briefly just to confirm that that was indeed the case. Our northerly heading had us lined up with 030 for a direct final approach and since there was no other traffic at the time, that?s what I announced we would be doing. The wind had picked up to around 10 knots and there were some gusts coming toward us from an angle of around 2 or 3 o?clock, but we were doing fine? centerline and on speed. The runway is 100? wide and over 5,000? long, so compared to what I was used to landing on, this was a piece of cake (check out W24?they literally use it for soap box derby races in the summer). The time was around 1:15 pm according to my timekeeper wife. My flair was at the right height, flaps were 40 degrees down and airspeed was bleeding off nicely. The mains touched down and suddenly everything went very wrong.

The mains were on the ground for just a second and then we were back up in the air. Did I bounce it? I could have? I won?t say that?s never happened before in C172 flights. Did a combination of ground effect and gusting wind make enough lift to bring her back up? That?s what I thought initially. Either way, I came down hard and bent the front wheel. The bent wheel pulled us to the left and off the runway where we hit the soft dirt with just enough momentum to cause the plane to raise straight up onto the spinner and then flip over onto the canopy. Between the panic, the adrenaline, the injuries and the shock, it?s pretty hard to describe what it feels like to be upside down in a plane that just flipped.

Now, what?s the point I?m trying to make by telling this lengthy story? Like I said in the first paragraph, I hope this helps someone else to evaluate their skills more closely. Especially those of us who are low time pilots. With 18,000 readers on this site, we all can?t be like the guys who make long cross country?s look like a walk across the street and amazing aerobatics look like something they could do in their sleep. I am in awe of you guys who are just that good and I appreciate all of your input to this fantastic site. However, along with myself, there are probably at least a few of us out there who may love these RV planes but who also have only a couple hundred hours of total time PIC.

Take the time to read Doug's threads on safety, especially Van?s article on ?How to land an RV? (http://www.vansairforce.net/safety/HowToLandAnRV.pdf). Then find a CFI with RV experience who will spend as much time with you as needed. You?ll also want to look carefully at http://www.rvflightsafety.org/. VAF contains so much more than just how to form the perfect rivet or hang an engine. The safety information here is invaluable.

I broke my neck in five places, had two complicated surgeries, wore a halo for 14 weeks, am still wearing a hard neck brace and have not been able to work or drive since June 15. My wife cracked two neck vertebrae, cracked three ribs and tore a rotator cuff in her shoulder. Thankfully she did not have to have any surgery. Hurting someone you love is much worse than hurting yourself. This is an embarrassing story to tell because even us low time guys like to think we?re good enough that something like this would never happen to us; but if sharing helps to keep someone else from getting hurt, then it?s worth being embarrassed.
 
Thanks for sharing.

I greatly respect your story. I am constantly amazed at the range of emotions involved in building and flying airplanes.

Let's be careful out there!
 
Chuck, thanks for sharing this, I know that had to be hard to do. Sounds like some significant injuries, but it sounds like you're doing better. I understand your feelings relating to the injuries your wife suffered, that's got to be much harder to deal with.

I'm sure there will be many questions for you, although I'll ask none. Your willingness to share is a positive impact on safety for the rest of us, and you'll be able to take something positive away from it as well.

Doug
 
Thanks a lot for sharing. I am very glad to hear that, while tedious, it sounds like you both will make a full recovery. Regardless of time and experience, things can get out of hand in the blink of an eye.
 
Chuck, like you, I am a low time pilot and have the same fears you had - and worry about the same thing. I will take your advice and do as much or more training in the 9A as I need to be comfortable - and then more lessons! Thanks for the story and best of luck with your and your wife's recovery. I have had 2 fusions in my neck and glad the doctors were able to fix me up!
 
A double set of neck fractures? You may have some good information to share in that regard. Any thoughts on what allowed those injuries, or how to prevent them?
 
Wow. Thanks for sharing your terrifying and educational story. Glad you're healing, surely if slowly.
 
Thank you for posting and hope you two recover quickly.

I set my personal limit at 25 kts direct xw in the -10. This past weekend we had 9G22 kts from 45 off the nose. I needed some xw experience, was solo and thought it would be easy. Those gusting winds are a whole different animal. I was juggling the stick, pedals and throttle for a bit and felt like newbie again. I have reassessed my personal gusty xw limits.
 
Like you, my mains went back into the air. My wife was also with me. I wish I knew exactly what happened. I didn't stall, and I'm not sure if it was a bit of inattention at the last second. I just don't know. We bounced about two feet high. It didn't even worry my wife. This event just followed one of my best landings ever.

Then it bounced again, about 2 1/2'. I should have just gave it some throttle on the first bounce. But it seemed so benign, especially comparing to some RV taildraggers I've seen land. Mine was a 6A.

Now it's like PIO, but the third bounce is very slow airspeed wise, and tail high. At that point, I just left the engine at idle. To do anymore, could have cartwheeled me off the runway. The nose gear tucked under, but we didn't flip over. Just sat there on the runway, tail high, with an engine still idling and a bent constant speed prop.

I don't know at what point, the gear bent. A piece of wood used as a damper was found farther back on the runway. I just would like to know exactly what transpired. And if I did know, I probably wouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Did I touch down nose first? Don't know...
 
Now, what’s the point I’m trying to make by telling this lengthy story? Like I said in the first paragraph, I hope this helps someone else to evaluate their skills more closely. Especially those of us who are low time pilots.

Thank you, Chuck. You're right, not everyone here is a pilot's pilot; there are plenty of people with low-time, low-experience, and in need of much more training. I'm one of them. So there is zero to be "embarrassed" about in relating your story. I deeply respect the courage you are showing by doing so.

Feel blessed that you are both recovering. Feel thankful that you have rich experiences to help you appreciate living. Feel rewarded by the lifetime of gratitude people like me have for you, for your story, and for the lessons I will take from it that I hope will make me a safer builder and pilot.

I am forever in your debt. Anything else you'd like to share would be welcome.

--
Stephen
 
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I, too, add my thanks for you sharing your story Chuck. The thing to remember is that many high-time pilots have mishaps - it is not just guys with fewer hours in their logbooks, Inattention, complacency, trying something "different" they can all get us.

In fact, anyone that figures that they are experienced enough to need no further learning, or are impervious to an accident is someone to watch out for.

The more I learn, the more I realize I still have to learn....

Here's hope for quick healing!
 
One idea

Thanks for sharing.
I think that in an RV one should always think that going around early during the landing roll is always an option.
Mastering rebounds can be tricky.
To go around, only power and attitude are initially important, flaps can be dealt with later with the power usually available on our planes. (Due to a blown flaps fuse, flying a whole pattern with full flaps after go around was a non-event).
Switching from landing-mode to going-around mode is difficult (even among airline pilots), more so if the decision has to be made in a split-second like during a rebound during landing. Things that can be done to mitigate this are remembering the go-around procedure during the final approach (what do I have to do? where will I go?) and training.
My 0.02cts (from low time RV pilot, but high time airliner pilot)

Hoping for the best for your's and your wife's health.
 
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Chuck thanks for sharing. It was too much excitement for you that day and a rush if I read it right. The more I fly the more I understand how less I know and how unexperienced I am. It's not about hours in the logbook. Reread Ironflight post it's all there...
 
Chuck,

Thanks for sharing and I wish you and your wife a speedy and complete recovery!

Even with 500+ hours in my RV, I still prang a landing every once in a while and learn something new on every flight. As the saying goes, ?There but the grace of God, go I.?

I?m sure you have replayed this flight in your mind over and over again. One thing that I just do out of courtesy to other pilots is I never fly a straight in approach to an uncontrolled field. There are a few reasons for this. First, there could be a no-radio plane in the pattern (Cub, T-Craft, etc.) that you will cut off. Second, an airplane with a radio, sitting on the ground may/will not transmit that far and you could cut them off. Third, the FAA does not consider you in the pattern when more than three miles from the airport. And fourth, by flying the pattern the same every time, I have a set routine I follow for every landing. This consistency in approach helps make my landings ?repeatable? / ?consistent?. They may not always be good landings but at least they are consistent and repeatable.

Again, I wish you both a speedy recovery!
 
Thank you all for the kind comments. The healing process is slow but appears to be going well. The first surgery was done the day after the accident and involved fusing the C6 & C7 vertebrae. The second surgery was done 15 weeks after the accident because one of the breaks in the C1 vertebrae was very wide and had not healed. That involved installing a screw that pulled the two halves of C1 together. I get another CT scan this Monday to see how much bone growth has occured and hopefully I'll be out of this neck brace and into rehab in the next 4 or 5 weeks.

My wife, the saint, is doing well. Sometime during those first four days in the ICU, she said, "don't worry, I'll fly with you as soon as the plane is fixed". Or at least that's what I think she said...it may have been the drugs. No, she really did say that!

One thing that we should have done before landing was to pull the harness and belts much tighter. They were snug, but if they had been pulled really tight, that may have helped some. My canopy is a tip up and your head is not far from it.

After NTSB was done looking at the plane, it was eventually taken to Royal Aircraft Services in Hagerstown, MD. for repairs. Those guys are doing a great job. Bob, one of the mechanics, built his own 7A a year or two ago and is the perfect guy to be working on my plane. They say it will be finished in a couple more weeks. Thanks Bob, Austin and Mike...keep up the good work.

This definitely was a "life changer" in more ways than one. Thankfully, most of those changes have been for the good, but those are entirely different stories that are too long to tell here. Thanks again and be safe.
 
Chuck,

Thanks for sharing and I wish you and your wife a speedy and complete recovery!

Even with 500+ hours in my RV, I still prang a landing every once in a while and learn something new on every flight. As the saying goes, ?There but the grace of God, go I.?

I?m sure you have replayed this flight in your mind over and over again. One thing that I just do out of courtesy to other pilots is I never fly a straight in approach to an uncontrolled field. There are a few reasons for this. First, there could be a no-radio plane in the pattern (Cub, T-Craft, etc.) that you will cut off. Second, an airplane with a radio, sitting on the ground may/will not transmit that far and you could cut them off. Third, the FAA does not consider you in the pattern when more than three miles from the airport. And fourth, by flying the pattern the same every time, I have a set routine I follow for every landing. This consistency in approach helps make my landings ?repeatable? / ?consistent?. They may not always be good landings but at least they are consistent and repeatable.

Again, I wish you both a speedy recovery!

Thanks Bill. Both your comment and Vlads comment are right on the money. I have replayed that flight hundreds of times in my head and believe that if I had done a standard pattern approach, I would have been better prepared for the landing. For me, this had been a bunch of flying that day and this second flight had been my longest X-country to date. A bit of sensory overload perhaps?

Good advice.
 
Glad your on the mend!

Ditto what Bill said about uncontrolled fields. One question, do you have five point belts in the 7A? I found that in mine no matter how tight I pulled the belts in my 7A I could bounce off the canopy (I'm only 5'5") in turbulence. I worried about breaking the canopy! I switched to Crow 5 point belts and now stay in the seat no matter what. Lots of safety for under $300.! Simpsons are also great belts. Get well quick, and get back on that horse.
 
Question regarding the tip-up

Chuck,
I'll add my very best wishes for your wife's and your speedy recoveries. I also am grateful that you offered your experience so that we can all learn and fly safer.

I have questions regarding the tip-up: How did you egress the aircraft? Were the two of you able to extract yourselves from the cockpit, or were you stuck in there until help arrived?

I'm building a 7A tip-up, and I admit I haven't sorted my egress plan and in-cockpit emergency equipment list. This is the very scenario that nags me most.

Again, get well soon. How splendid that your wife is raring to return to the air...You have a marvelous lady there.
 
Ditto what Bill said about uncontrolled fields. One question, do you have five point belts in the 7A? I found that in mine no matter how tight I pulled the belts in my 7A I could bounce off the canopy (I'm only 5'5") in turbulence. I worried about breaking the canopy! I switched to Crow 5 point belts and now stay in the seat no matter what. Lots of safety for under $300.! Simpsons are also great belts. Get well quick, and get back on that horse.

I've got 4 point Hookers and when they're tight, they seem to do a good job. I see a lot of guys using Crow, but haven't flown in a plane with those installed. Thanks.
 
On the other hand.. any landing you can walk away from is a good one :D

(maybe you needed a little help walking away, but you still walked away)
 
Chuck,
I'll add my very best wishes for your wife's and your speedy recoveries. I also am grateful that you offered your experience so that we can all learn and fly safer.

I have questions regarding the tip-up: How did you egress the aircraft? Were the two of you able to extract yourselves from the cockpit, or were you stuck in there until help arrived?

I'm building a 7A tip-up, and I admit I haven't sorted my egress plan and in-cockpit emergency equipment list. This is the very scenario that nags me most.

Again, get well soon. How splendid that your wife is raring to return to the air...You have a marvelous lady there.

Thank you Scroll...and yes, she is a marvelous lady!

The canopy broke apart into medium and small pieces. After throwing seat cushions into the baggage area and undoing my harness, I was able to start removing the broken pieces on my side of the canopy. My wife was wedged in and unable to move. After getting myself out, I was able to reach back in and remove my wife's seat cushions and harness so that she could then twist and let herself onto the grass. I thought there was something wrong with my neck because of the pain and the fact that my right hand didn't work and she said that her neck hurt also. We could hear the ambulances, so we both just laid on the grass for a minute or two until they arrived.

I believe that a tool with which to break the canopy - and which is securely stored so that you can find it - is a good idea.
 
The canopy broke apart into medium and small pieces. After throwing seat cushions into the baggage area and undoing my harness, I was able to start removing the broken pieces on my side of the canopy. My wife was wedged in and unable to move. After getting myself out, I was able to reach back in and remove my wife's seat cushions and harness so that she could then twist and let herself onto the grass. I thought there was something wrong with my neck because of the pain and the fact that my right hand didn't work and she said that her neck hurt also. We could hear the ambulances, so we both just laid on the grass for a minute or two until they arrived.

I believe that a tool with which to break the canopy - and which is securely stored so that you can find it - is a good idea.

Wow. OK, Chuck, thanks. Big help. Get well, brother.
 
On the other hand.. any landing you can walk away from is a good one :D

(maybe you needed a little help walking away, but you still walked away)

So I've said myself several times Walt. Unfortunately, this one involved a stretcher and an expensive ambulance ride for two.
 
I looked up a picture of your plane Chuck and it looks like the roll bar held up, as expected. (Picture below.)

With the temperfoam most of us are using now days, it is common to tighten the belt and then sink into the seats as the foam warms up. However, most of us don?t retighten our belts, myself included.

Also, when using a sub-strap, the sequence for tightening your belts is to put the lap belt on loosely, tighten the sub-strap, tighten the lap belt, and then tighten the shoulder harnesses. If the shoulder harnesses pull the lap belt up across your mid-section, then the lap belt was too loose. The lap belt should ride across your hip bones, not your stomach. In the event of an accident, you do not want your internal organs taking the force of the impact.

Sub-straps are really miss-named. They don?t keep you from going under the lap belt as much as they keep the lap belt in place.

Chuck, thanks again for taking the time to post about your accident. The healing process is painful for both the physical and physiological injuries. I look forward to hearing about your 2nd first flight and the next trip you and your wife take together!
572509_1.jpg
 
...I believe that a tool with which to break the canopy - and which is securely stored so that you can find it - is a good idea.
Good advice. My wife gave me one of these SOG Tactical Tamahawks a few years back to put in the plane but I haven't figure out a way to stow it.

sog_f01t-n_1.png
 
Chuck you have already helped 1170 people by the time of this post, planting a little seed in the back of everybody's head that this can and does happen. We should never get to comfortable with our skills that we think it can't happen, no matter the number of hours.
I pray for a complete recovery for you and your wife, thanks for posting.
Tim
 
nose gear

Chuck
I'm glad you are healing and it sounds like your airplane is healing as well. You married well. I'm sure her support means more than anything else.

I am building a 7a slider so your story is of great importance to me. I try to learn as much as possible as I am a low time pilot. I plan on lots of transition training in hopes it will help me prepare. I also plan on a test pilot.

May I ask if you had the AntiSplat device? Disregard if you would rather not answer.
 
Chuck
I'm glad you are healing and it sounds like your airplane is healing as well. You married well. I'm sure her support means more than anything else.

I am building a 7a slider so your story is of great importance to me. I try to learn as much as possible as I am a low time pilot. I plan on lots of transition training in hopes it will help me prepare. I also plan on a test pilot.

May I ask if you had the AntiSplat device? Disregard if you would rather not answer.

Thanks Larry, and yes that type of support is critical. I did not have the AntiSplat device installed.

Also, thank you Bill for posting that picture of the plane. I wish I had figured out how to include pictures before I started this thread.
 
Like you, my mains went back into the air. My wife was also with me. I wish I knew exactly what happened. I didn't stall, and I'm not sure if it was a bit of inattention at the last second.

In my case, I am pretty sure exactly what happened. The mains touched and I quit flying the plane. It could have happened in any aircraft. The subsequent re-landing without pilot input put the airplane on the nosewheel. It could be argued that a more robust nosegear might have saved me the subsequent prop-strike but if I had done my job the nosegear would have been sufficient - as it has been before and since.

It was a tough lesson for a low-time pilot to learn and I wish I had learned it before damaging my RV. But I have since landed in gustier conditions than that day and experienced no problems. My confidence is up but I work to keep my complacency low because I don't want to fall into that trap again.

I'm not suggesting that this is what happened to Larry or to Chuck, or that there is a trend for this kind of thing in RVs; I just wanted to re-share my experience for newcomers. Chuck, I hope you and your wife recover and return to the sky soon. My passenger in the incident has since flown with me; he was a little nervous on the first landing (even though it was a calm day) but continues to fly with me any chance he gets. My spouse was also nervous the first time after the incident that she flew with me but has returned to her love for flying as a passenger. Me? Since I knew exactly where to place the blame, I never worried once about my RV once I got it repaired and I had already gotten some recurrent training with a friend in his RV so I was already 'back in the saddle'.
 
Thanks Chuck,
You have probably added to my wife's and my safety.
I have 5 point harnesses but will add tighten belts to the landing checklist.
I would suggest this is a good reason for people to use a 5 point.
 
thanks

Thank you Chuck. I hope to meet you and shake your hand someday.
It's exciting to meet those famous pilots with a gazillion hours but to meet someone with your courage would be just as rewarding. Thank you for this thread.

I second the five point harness and need to keep it tight. I drove race cars a bit and it's amazing how much you can torque them down after just a few minutes. The officials used to brief us, if you can still take a breath, they're not tight enough. I got used to pulling them tighter every yellow flag or pit stop.
 
In my case, I am pretty sure exactly what happened. The mains touched and I quit flying the plane. It could have happened in any aircraft.

Thanks Chuck for sharing your experience.

And thank you Patrick for also being so candid regarding yours....
I also believe this is a factor in many (not at all saying it was in Chucks case) accidents. And I agree it can (and does) happen in any kind of aircraft.
 
Me? Since I knew exactly where to place the blame, I never worried once about my RV once I got it repaired and I had already gotten some recurrent training with a friend in his RV so I was already 'back in the saddle'.

Good advice about "getting back in the saddle". It will end up being about 6 or 7 months after the accident before I'm able to get back in the plane and of course my CFI buddy who first helped me learn to fly this plane, will be up with me for awhile.

Our stories are similar so thanks for sharing that yours had such a positive outcome.
 
This post probably will get a couple hundred new orders for the anti-splat device.
If it doesn't then it certainly should. I see a lot of good feedback on this thread; and it can be beneficial to all of us regardless of the amount of RV time that we have. With practice I found my RV6A a very friendly airplane to fly; but I have never found it to be a forgiving airplane to fly as it requires 100% attention
100% of the time!

John Morgan



Chuck,

Thanks for sharing and I wish you and your wife a speedy and complete recovery!

Even with 500+ hours in my RV, I still prang a landing every once in a while and learn something new on every flight. As the saying goes, “There but the grace of God, go I.”

I’m sure you have replayed this flight in your mind over and over again. One thing that I just do out of courtesy to other pilots is I never fly a straight in approach to an uncontrolled field. There are a few reasons for this. First, there could be a no-radio plane in the pattern (Cub, T-Craft, etc.) that you will cut off. Second, an airplane with a radio, sitting on the ground may/will not transmit that far and you could cut them off. Third, the FAA does not consider you in the pattern when more than three miles from the airport. And fourth, by flying the pattern the same every time, I have a set routine I follow for every landing. This consistency in approach helps make my landings “repeatable” / “consistent”. They may not always be good landings but at least they are consistent and repeatable.

Again, I wish you both a speedy recovery!
 
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Chuck, thanks for sharing your story. Ballooning before, or bouncing after touchdown is not an uncommon occurance, especially in gusty wind. We're all a product of our training, and I think bounce recovery or go-around practice is something that tricycle trainers are weak in providing much opportunity to engage in due to the gear geometry.

I've often thought back to my days learning to fly from scratch in a tailwheel Champ, and wondered if I'd have the same immediate and automatic go-around or bounce recovery response had I learned to fly in a trike. As a student pilot, I would generally go around at the slightest bounce (which occurred with frequency) due to the nature of the tailwheel design. This ingrained the reponse very strongly from day 1. With experience, those go-arounds became bounce recoveries, but the immediate response is still with me.

Not trying to start a debate over whether it's best to learn in a tailwheel vs. trike, but I've often thought that it may be harder to develop this type of response in the trikes that most folks learn to fly in. Primacy is hard to overcome. What say you tailwheel CFIs who do lots of transition training? Do you notice a general need for re-training on this subject?
 
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Chuck,

John Morgan is spot on with his advice for consistency in your pattern. When you return to flying strive to make a perfect pattern every time. Be at the TPA, not 200' low. Be at your pattern airspeed. Turn at the same place each time for your turns and adjust them for wind effect if you aren't. Nail your approach speed! Nobody flies a perfect pattern, but you need to work toward one each time. Make the aircraft do what you want it to do!!! When you get off any of the parameters, correct it immediately or go around and do it over. As John said, after a short while your landings will be both consistent and good. Thanks for sharing your story...we all need to work toward being better, safer pilots.

Jim
 
Chuck, thank you so much for sharing. Reading your story and reflecting on a landing of my own a number of months ago under similar circumstances which went similarly wrong, I'm starting to realize that long, straight-in approaches are best avoided if possible - at least until I get a lot more experience in the cockpit. There must be something about them, which I don't quite fully understand yet, that raises the difficulty/risk bar significantly. I was very fortunate that the skyhawk took my almost-PIO, multiple-bounce landing in stride. I doubt my 9A would've fared as well.

And why does it seem the worst landings always happen when you have passengers?

Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery for both you and your wife.
 
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Chuck,

John Morgan is spot on with his advice for consistency in your pattern. When you return to flying strive to make a perfect pattern every time. Be at the TPA, not 200' low. Be at your pattern airspeed. Turn at the same place each time for your turns and adjust them for wind effect if you aren't. Nail your approach speed! Nobody flies a perfect pattern, but you need to work toward one each time. Make the aircraft do what you want it to do!!! When you get off any of the parameters, correct it immediately or go around and do it over. As John said, after a short while your landings will be both consistent and good. Thanks for sharing your story...we all need to work toward being better, safer pilots.

Jim

Thanks Jim, good advice from a lot of experience.
 
I'm starting to realize that long, straight-in approaches are best avoided if possible - at least I get a lot more experience in the cockpit. There must be something about them, which I don't quite fully understand yet, that raises the difficulty/risk bar significantly.

I've come to the same conclusion Kurt. They just won't be done anymore.
 
With best wishes for a faster and fully recovery for both of you.

And thanks for sharing the experience and hoping we all learn from it.
 
Not so sure you need a canopy breaker with a tip up. No, I'm not picking on tip ups. Personally I love them.

What caught my eye was double neck injuries. Clearly the occupants were wearing belts. Sure, maybe they should have been tighter, and the 5th point is a plus, and maybe Mr. and Mrs. Hagerty are tall folks. Still, why the double head contact?

2i6e260.jpg


Consider this side view. The lines indicate (generally) where the aircraft would come to rest inverted, assuming the vertical tail didn't fold. There's a real difference between the tip up and the slider, with its windshield frame roll bar. The tip up roll bar may not even reach the ground unless the tail folds. However, the occupants would be leaning forward into their shoulder belts due to deceleration, which would put their heads beyond the ground line.

Now go look at the posted photo.

Chuck, my best to you and yours. Hang in there.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people can lay a story like this out for all to critique. Perhaps its because my personality would never release the reigns on something like this, but I applaud the intestinal fortitude displayed by Chuck and others who lay it out there for the rest of us to learn from.

This forum provides quite a few answers to technical questions....some of the answers questionable themselves..but they are answers none the less. To me, the biggest benefit I've seen from this site is posts like this one. Posts that make me think, reevaluate my skills or change my approach. There have been several and as my project is really looking more and more like an airplane every day...I have been reevaluating and renewing my skillset to handle the day that is quickly approaching.

Thanks Chuck. Get well soon and back in the air.
 
Dan, as usual your graphics speak volumes. Sincerely hoping this doesn't turn into yet another tipper vs. slider debate though.
 
Different Opinion

To John's post, I do not mean any ill feelings but I don't think that Van's design needs the anti-splat. If it did, I suspect that Van's would issue a service bulletin. Replacing or beefing up a part under the suspicion that it's bad thinking that you are making it better when in reality there isn't anything wrong with it is a classic alpha error (or consumer risk). Basically a waste of money and possibly inducing variation in another area.

On another note, its interesting to note the comment of "stopped flying the airplane". I am not a flight instructor, but I wonder how many times a flight instructor will encounter a student who stops flying the airplane especially close to the ground. How do you teach or instill in your students to watch out for this behavior and how to correct? Is it sensory overload that causes a no-reaction? This is very interesting.

Thanks for sharing this and I am enjoying and learning from all the comments.



This post probably will get a couple hundred new orders for the anti-splat device.
If it doesn't then it certainly should. I see a lot of good feedback on this thread; and it can be beneficial to all of us regardless of the amount of RV time that we have. With practice I found my RV6A a very friendly airplane to fly; but I have never found it to be a forgiving airplane to fly as it requires 100% attention
100% of the time!

John Morgan
 
What caught my eye was double neck injuries. Clearly the occupants were wearing belts. Sure, maybe they should have been tighter, and the 5th point is a plus, and maybe Mr. and Mrs. Hagerty are tall folks. Still, why the double head contact?

2i6e260.jpg


Consider this side view. The lines indicate (generally) where the aircraft would come to rest inverted, assuming the vertical tail didn't fold. There's a real difference between the tip up and the slider, with its windshield frame roll bar. The tip up roll bar may not even reach the ground unless the tail folds. However, the occupants would be leaning forward into their shoulder belts due to deceleration, which would put their heads beyond the ground line.

Now go look at the posted photo.

Chuck, my best to you and yours. Hang in there.

In reading the OP I don't think it has been established that Chuck and his wife hit the canopy with their heads, although that is certainly a possibility. Her shoulder and rib injuries suggest that there was a significant forward and/or lateral impact. Whiplash could also have accounted for some of the neck injuries. If either of them have osteoporosis, relatively minor impacts could have caused multiple fractures. Chuck, can you shed any light on this?

I wonder if the shoulder strap air bags would have offered any protection. Does anyone know if they deploy straight forward, or do they extend up and over the head and shoulders? Also, would they have been triggered if most of the impact was to the top of the canopy?

Best of luck to both of you in recovering from your injuries, and thanks for sharing your experience.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people can lay a story like this out for all to critique. Perhaps its because my personality would never release the reigns on something like this, but I applaud the intestinal fortitude displayed by Chuck and others who lay it out there for the rest of us to learn from.

Thanks Bill. This is one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I don't particularly like to share my shortcomings and who wants to be a wet blanket at the party. For this reason, I sent this thread to Doug before I posted it and asked him if I should put it on the site. He said that I definitely should, and from my perspective, I've learned quite a bit from the responses.
 
In reading the OP I don't think it has been established that Chuck and his wife hit the canopy with their heads, although that is certainly a possibility. Her shoulder and rib injuries suggest that there was a significant forward and/or lateral impact. Whiplash could also have accounted for some of the neck injuries. If either of them have osteoporosis, relatively minor impacts could have caused multiple fractures. Chuck, can you shed any light on this?Jim BerryRV-10

Good questions Jim and good drawing Dan. When the plane left the runway, it had just enough momentum left to stand up on it's nose...and then it fell over. There was virtually no forward momentum. All of our injuries were sustained by head to ground contact or inverted body to harness contact.

I'm 5'8 and my wife is 5'10". My weight is 170 lbs. and only God and my wife know what her weight is...most women won't tell, so let's just say she looks good. Both of us are in good health in our late fifties.
 
.... When the plane left the runway, it had just enough momentum left to stand up on it's nose...and then it fell over. There was virtually no forward momentum?.

Thank you for sharing this terrible experience with us and glad to hear that both of you are on the mend. I have a question for our engineers out there.

Would adding for example 5 pounds of ballast to the tail of our aircraft help mitigate these slow motion tip overs?

Regards,
 
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