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Help me save my HS!

YellowJacket RV9

Well Known Member
Patron
Actually I hope the situation isn't that dire, but I'm looking for some advice about how to proceed after a screw up. While riveting the inboard nose rib-spar-spacer-rib assembly, I royally screwed up a rivet and had to drill out. But thanks to the awkward angle, I ended up drilling it out at an angle, which I didn't notice until I re-riveted, and AGAIN it came out all funky. So now I have a terrible rivet off to one side of an enlarged hole. Needless to say, I've stepped away and practiced my rivet removal technique.

My thinking had been to either

-drill out again, put a reinforcement plate on the elongated side, and re-rivet
-Enlarge the hole to round, and bolt it (but I'm not sure on edge distance, although I don't see much reason to suspect shear forces at this spot), OR,
-Drill and new hole between the middle and bad rivet, and re-rivet there.

2julw5.jpg


I have consulted Van's on this, but no response yet, so thought I'd seek some expert advice here as well. On a better note, aside from this issue and a couple holes waiting for 'oops' rivets to arrive, the HS is done!
 
I do recall rivets in that area being a real pain in the arse. I ended up drilling a couple out to a larger AD-5 size to fix the oblong holes I created when drilling out the first couple tries. One got an AN470-AD5 rivet and the other got a AD5 size cherrymax rivet.
 
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You can always put a bolt in there!

Every time I've mucked up a rivet like that, it has been because I didn't have the right air pressure on the rivet gun.
 
Well, see what Vans says, but I would just look closely at what potential interferences there might be for a larger rivet, and then put a slightly larger rivet (or bolt) in there.

We've all got a few of these sorts of things in our airplane! Fortunately, the design is robust enough to account for (most of) these mishaps.

Cheers,
Greg
 
Yep I'm thinking a bolt may be the way to go. If you look closely, you can actually see the outline of where the original rivet still sits, so unfortunately it will need to be a pretty big hole. We'll see what Vans says...

I've been doing some research and I will try upping my air pressure next time; I didn't realize that the offset set would require so much more pressure.

Looking at the middle rivet, it is also driven a bit off-center, but I'm wary of drilling it out unless anybody thinks it looks grossly inadequate...

Chris
 
Same problem

Chris,

I had the same problem with those rivets. I had to re-do a few times, but finally got it acceptable. I would vote for a Cherrymax rivet and not a bolt. It will be a one and done and you'll never have to worry about it again. My $0.02

Tom
 
Chris you are living in RV heaven. Ask a repeat offender to come to your shop and set those stubborn rivets. Offer him lunch. We all had problems in that HS corner at some point.
 
I recall those 6 rivets very well ...

...they gave me absolute fits. After I buggered those up several times, I figured out I had to raise the air pressure when setting long AN4 rivets. I went the route of Cherrymax pulled rivets .... as I recall, about the longest ones I could find. Turned out fine. I know others have drilled it out to an AN3 bolt.
 
No big deal

This is not a big deal at all... Brace yourself for several mistakes yet to come. :D Personally, I would go to a bolt quit yet. I'd go ahead and invest in the rivet assotments below. They are a life / time saver to have on hand & you get all the way up to -6 size rivet. Get both a AN470 & A426 set and youll be set for the rest of your build plus no Bolts in rivet holes.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/solidalumrivets3.php?clickkey=14802
 
Thanks for the reassurance. I went ahead and drilled out the bad rivet today, but was bummed to find out that the hole inside the spar is way out of shape, from where I had drilled into it at an angle.
28c3hc0.jpg


I am hoping I can still either fit a bolt in their or add a new hole...I am pleased to hear I'm not the only one who has had trouble with this area. Thanks

Chris
 
Practice

Chris

This is salvagable.....but with respect I suggest you get a load of scrap and practice banging rivets for a couple of weeks. I know you want to get on with building but time spent on practice is recovered quickly because there are fewer duff rivets as a result.

Looking at the photo there appear to be only three good rivets, the three directly to the right of the really banged up one. The six to the right of that appear to be acceptable but overstruck. I am not suggesting you do anything with these.

The one below the banged up one appears to be bent over and the side of the hole can be seen. I would carefully drill that out and replace it probably with a cherry mac. As for the banged up one I would carefully make th hole round with a file, working away from the closes edge to leave as much edge clearance on the rib as you can, then see if you can find a Cherry max to fit the hole.

Lots of us have messed up like this while learning but I promise you practice is the key and a in the long run a great time saver.
 
Good advice; I have already put a hold on any new rivets while I cool down and do a bunch of practice ones. My skin came out very well, but I need to work more on setting larger rivets. I will also ask Vans about removing the center rivet that you suggested. The other 6 that were overstruck I made sure to measure that they were within acceptable specs. Thanks for the input!

Chris
 
Install a new rivet with 1/4 to 5/16 edge distance from the boogered up hole. Then add sufficient paint to cover your conscience and the ugly hole.
 
To make you fell a bit better ...

.... Those six rivets gave me more trouble than any other rivets in the entire aircraft. Part of the problem is the size and location of them, the rest of the trouble is caused by their coming early in the build when you haven't much rivet gun time. There are tougher rivets later, but by then you're an old hand at it.
Fear not ... It gets W-A-Y better. :D
 
For people just getting started, don't rivet in the order of the instructions. It has been a long time but I remember this on my nine. When I did the ten I made sure these got riveted first with the rib not locked in. It allows you to bend the rib over to make more room. Much easier and less chance of having so much trouble. Not much help for this situation but it might help others starting if they read this.

I think a bolt is your best choice here.
 
This is a good time to remind everyone that most if the time if a newbie drills out a botched rivet, the result will be way worse than if he had just left the original one alone.

There have been a couple fully documented tests performed where people have tested the strength of perfect rivets against those that are less than perfect and the bottom line is that in most cases you are better off leaving them alone and not making the situation worse. Those are in the archives here somewhere.
 
Sounds and looks very familiar

Sounds and looks very familiar, I've had exactly the same situation when building my empennage. I did ask the same question as you here, and also sent pictures to Vans builder support asking what to do, the reply was: it's OK as long as the nearby rivets are good, but do not try to put a larger or longer rivet to try to fill the hole it would be the worst thing to do.
But please do the same: send pictures to Vans then call them to have their advice...
Alain.
 
Difficult to tell from the photo. Maybe you have just knocked off the paint but it looks like you have badly scratched the surrounding area. May need some serious work with emery and scotchbrite to remove the scratches/damage.

As to the rest of the comments - couldn't agree more. I probably have given myself more grief on my build by drilling out rivets that were probably OK than anything else.
 
Another opinion

Chris,
I faced a bunch of issues like this on my second-hand kit. Very frustrating.

First thing to do with a bad rivet situation is let it be for a while so you can approach it with a better mind set (no pun intended).

It looks like you may have already exceeded the minimum edge distance on the rib flange and bend, but that's not the big issue. To me, having a nice, round smooth hole in the spar is key because that is the main structural member. Get it in a position where you can drill a straight hole and/or ream it smooth if necessary. Just filling it with rivet material is not the answer.

I would get that hole done first at the smallest diameter you can. Then assess what you have to do to the rib. You can even carefully remove the portion of the flange if you have to and rivet a mini-doubler over the top that has the required edge distances.

Cherry Max and other rivets have tighter tolerances. They come in nominal and oversize diameters. They have to be sized correctly, both length and diameter, and set without a slant. It is also important not to champher the rivet hole. Cherry Max recommends that you use their hi-dollar rivet tools but if you're careful, even a Harbor Freight pneumatic riveter will work. Just make sure the collar is on and locked when you are done. Getting a rivet tool in there may be difficult however.

Hi-Loks are even more critical requiring reaming the holes and an interference fit but they can be tapped in an locked with a special nut and tool.

It looks like to me it can be salvaged without too much difficulty. Get some help from an A&P sheet metal guy, not just another builder who may not know all the tricks of the trade.

Also if you can get a solid rivet in there correctly, get someone to help you buck it.

My two cents.

Dave A.
6A build
 
I don't think you are supposed to "drill out" a bad rivet. I was taught to drill into the head, insert a punch, break off the head and then tap the body out with a hammer and punch. That leaves the original hole untouched. If the rivet body is stubborn to remove, you can further drill it with a much undersized drill to make it hollow and then tap it out with a hammer and punch or grab the shop end with pliers and pull it out.

Also in your photo, the adjacent rivets look a little over driven.
 
Thanks all for the reassuring input. Still waiting to hear from vans, but I think I may end up at least ordering a new rib; fortunately I never riveted it in, thinking it may need to come out. The underside of the botched hole is much cleaner and rounder, so hopefully I can clean up the existing hole enough to set a cherrymax rivet. I have also removed and plan on re-setting the other poorly set rivets nearby - fortunately I learned my lesson and managed to remove them without further damage (just drilled off the head...) I may use the cherrymax rivets here as well so as not to risk another screw up. If nothing else, it's been a good learning experience so far!

Chris
 
Save your HS

It appears that you can get to both sides, so my suggestion is to us a Hi-Lock bolt. These typically are close tolerance and have a special lock collar that breaks away upon reaching the correct torque. I would double check with Van's, but the airlines use these all the time in structural applications.
 
New rib

Personally I would go for the new rib..... whats a few dollars as against peace of mind?

There is though another possible solution, rivet in a 90 degree gusset plate rivitted to the existing rib and the spar.

Best of luck.
 
Well the gods at Vans have spoken, and suggested a simple #8 screw and 'move on with the build'. But I do plan on using a new rib, for my own piece of mind. Practicing on scrap, and using my VS build as a cool-down period before I go back at the HS.

Chris
 
Follow Van's advice. Don't be afraid to put a new flange on the rib. Simply cut off the flange and add a new one.
As mentioned, never drill through a rivet. View the EAA video on rivet removal.
As a side note, insure your work is held firmly while riveting. Many errors in riveting are caused by a poorly supported part.

For what it is worth, there are no hi-loks, cherry max, oops rivets, bolts, or other hardware in my entire airframe used to fix a mistake. Almost without exception you can repair any damaged part and put it back with the same construction and type of fastener. I made plenty of mistakes but chose to repair the parts as new rather than use other types of fasteners. Personal choice.

Get your hands on AC-43-13b. It is downloadable as PDF's or you can still order a copy. It covers many different recommended practices for repairs, acceptable standards, etc...

Keep moving forward. You are doing fine.
 
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