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Static checks and controlled airspace

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
I know there have been several threads about this but I've seen some conversations elsewhere that make the question pop up again.

Here's the question:

I had SteinAir do my transponder check. I did the pitot/static check myself.

Can I fly in Class B?
 
I know there have been several threads about this but I've seen some conversations elsewhere that make the question pop up again.

Here's the question:

I had SteinAir do my transponder check. I did the pitot/static check myself.

Can I fly in Class B?

Yes, there is no reqmnt for a "pitot-static" check (actually just a static check as there is no required pitot check) unless you fly IFR.
 
Be sure to check paragraph (2) of your operating limitations.
Many inspectors restrict phase I flight testing operations to "outside of Class B airspace".
 
Yes, there is no reqmnt for a "pitot-static" check (actually just a static check as there is no required pitot check) unless you fly IFR.

Doesn't this FAR say otherwise? ... or have I been wasting my $$ on 24 month VFR transponder checks?

Sec. 91.413

ATC transponder tests and inspections.

(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or Sec. 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and
(b) Following any installation or maintenance on an ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.
(c) The tests and inspections specified in this section must be conducted by--
(1) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding--
(i) A radio rating, Class III;
(ii) A limited radio rating appropriate to the make and model transponder to be tested;
(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;
[(iv) deleted]
(2) A holder of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program as provided in part 121 or Sec. 135.411(a)(2) of this chapter; or
(3) The manufacturer of the aircraft on which the transponder to be tested is installed, if the transponder was installed by that manufacturer.
 
I think Gil is correct, the answer to the original question is no. FARs require an "operable" mode C in class B. But you cannot operate your transponder unless it has been tested for sending out the correct altitude. Since the altitude info comes from some source (EFIS?) in your aircraft I don't see how Stein could have done the data correspondance check unless he came to your aircraft.
There also has been a lot of discussion on the legal interpretation of "manufacturer" and whether or not we can do our own static checks even if we had the required equipment, which is expensive.
 
I think Gil is correct, the answer to the original question is no. FARs require an "operable" mode C in class B. But you cannot operate your transponder unless it has been tested for sending out the correct altitude. Since the altitude info comes from some source (EFIS?) in your aircraft I don't see how Stein could have done the data correspondance check unless he came to your aircraft.
There also has been a lot of discussion on the legal interpretation of "manufacturer" and whether or not we can do our own static checks even if we had the required equipment, which is expensive.

I think you and Gil may have misunderstood what Bob meant and what Walt said. We indeed did do a transponder check at the aircraft, in the aircraft, etc.. which is what is required for VFR. What we did not do is a full Altimeter Pitot/Static system leak check which is required for IFR (same for certified planes).

Walt is right, no requirement for a pitot static IFR check in any airplane that isn't IFR...only a VFR txpdr check - two totally different things. One takes minutes, the other takes hours! :)

Regarding the test area, Bob's test area is indeed outside (actually a combination of under and outside) the MSP class B (which I think is what he meant by "in" class B), which is perfectly fine, and indeed he has his Txpdr check done so he can fly inside the 30 mi veil.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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Be sure to check paragraph (2) of your operating limitations.
Many inspectors restrict phase I flight testing operations to "outside of Class B airspace".

I'm not referencing phase one , and my test area is outside of the Class B area anyway.

Also, and I'm stealing this reference from another thread on this subject in which people wanted a definition of when you can fly without transponders.... WHY would you want to fly without a transponder? With my neat little Zaon PCX, it can't see you if your transponder isn't turned on. If it can't see you, I probably can't see you. Why would you want to use your transponder as a "cloaking device."?
 
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Stein, thanks for the clarification, you did go to the plane.
In the original post I was picturing some sort of bench test prior to shipment.

As to why people want to know about no-transponder operation, I can only guess that the answers run from "I don't want the FAA spying on me" to "I just wanted to know the rules in case the transponer fails, or I'm over due on its biennial", and everything in between.
 
I am not sure what Bob's test area encompases, but sounds like he is good to go with the transponder check that has already been completed for phase 1 or 2. One other caveat to consider is the mode C veil which typically envelopes all Class Bravos and then some. Mode C is required in these areas.
 
Bob, one possible gotcha is, although your transponder will be correctly replying, you might inadvertently fly into class B because your altimeter is not reading correctly. Or, more likely, you'll be asked to fly 4500', and atc will ask you why you are at 4200', for example. You can compare altimeter and transponder if you set the altimeter to 29.92, and fly various altitudes. This assumes you are able to see the mode C altitude you're squawking.
 
Bob, one possible gotcha is, although your transponder will be correctly replying, you might inadvertently fly into class B because your altimeter is not reading correctly. Or, more likely, you'll be asked to fly 4500', and atc will ask you why you are at 4200', for example. You can compare altimeter and transponder if you set the altimeter to 29.92, and fly various altitudes. This assumes you are able to see the mode C altitude you're squawking.

Knowing Stein personally, there is little doubt that he is well aware of the need for the data correspondance check on a new airplane.

Additionally, I believe Bob is using the D100 for both altimeter and encoder, in which case, the reported and observed altitudes will always be the same.

That doesn't mean the "actual" altitude is correct (you get this when you do the IFR cert) only that the altitude shown on the D100 will match ATC altitude.
 
With my neat little Zaon PCX, it can't see you if your transponder isn't turned on. If it can't see you, I probably can't see you.

You are kidding, right?!?

The RULE (FAR 91.113(b)) of "see and avoid" does not mean staking your life and the lives of others on some electronic gizmo. Having flown many hours with very sophisticated (read expensive) certified TCAS systems there have been many targets out there that I never saw. I also have seen many aircraft thru the windshield that the TCAS never displayed. While the Zaon is undoubtedly a nice supplemental traffic detection device, please don't rely on it solely for collision avoidance.

Van gave us a big, beautiful canopy, please let's use it for something other than a suntan!

Rant over.

George
 
You are kidding, right?!?

The RULE (FAR 91.113(b)) of "see and avoid" does not mean staking your life and the lives of others on some electronic gizmo. Having flown many hours with very sophisticated (read expensive) certified TCAS systems there have been many targets out there that I never saw. I also have seen many aircraft thru the windshield that the TCAS never displayed. While the Zaon is undoubtedly a nice supplemental traffic detection device, please don't rely on it solely for collision avoidance.

Van gave us a big, beautiful canopy, please let's use it for something other than a suntan!

Rant over.

George

I've got a few thousand hours behind certified TCAS systems myself. My experience is that the scenario where the TCAS sees a target that I never can spot with my Mark II eyeballs is far more common than the scenario where I see a target and the TCAS does not. In fact, those are pretty rare. I don't think Bob was advocating not looking out the window and relying on the Zaon. He simply said that if you don't turn your transponder on, his Zaon will not see you FOR SURE, and the Mark II eyeballs have well known limitations.
In the end, I certainly agree with you that we are required to look out the window as the first line of defense. I don't think Bob was advocating anything less.

$.02 worth
 
You are kidding, right?!?

It never fails to amaze me in the business I'm in how people will create a reality in the absence of obtaining any more facts.

Did I SAY I only use the Zaon in see and avoid? No, I didn't.

Maybe next time you should just ask "are you using it as a primary traffic source?" before hitting the lecture circuit. And maybe as a general rule of thumb, we can assume in considering posts that we're not idiots out here.
 
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Picking nits

One issue I see often is people don't know what controlled airspace is. The only uncontrolled airspace in the country is class G. Class E airspace can be flown in without talking to anyone but that doesn't mean it isn't controlled.

I've made this very comment before but had my post edited for 'negativity'.
 
(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;

This phrase entails some research!

It's quite simple actually. When you get an FAA 145 CRS, you apply for various ratings (Airframe, Instrument, Radio, etc..). Ratings can be by class, or limited to specific items and or services. That "limited" rating is still a full flown FAA certification and all the fun that goes along with being a certified repair station...it's just that your capabilities are narrowed a bit.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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