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RV-7A Aerobatics Lesson with Air Show Pilot Adam Baker - Part 2

SmittysRV

Well Known Member
This video is Part 2 in the series with aerobatics instructor Adam Baker. Adam is a local air show pilot who holds an unlimited ground level waiver. In this video, Gene starts out the lesson with more Stall/Spin recovery techniques. Then they have a little more fun with some aerobatics. Gene and I are hangar mates and love putting these videos together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ooGy0T5auU

In case you missed it, here's Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb_lKYuKxvU
 
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Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?
 
Another nice video Smitty. BTW, Adam has a 250' waiver, not surface- not that it matters. There's not necessarily any correlation between aerobatic skill/teaching ability and airshow waivers. There are lots of exceptional aerobatic instructors and pilots out there who don't fly air shows. Plenty of airshow pilots aren't heroic aerobats, they just do it for some level of personal satisfaction. That being said, Adam seems perfectly competent. Though I find his recommendation to recover "a flat spin or something like that" with aft stick and right rudder to be questionable advice. I'm very tuned into spin training in the aerobatic community, and this just isn't taught. Most aerobatic airplanes (including RVs - not sure about the small tail RV-6) WILL recover any left rudder spin, flat or otherwise, with right rudder and aft stick, but for the aerobatic pilot, this is not a good emergency recovery technique. Aft stick and right rudder will prevent recovery for any inverted spin mode. Aerobatic pilots have definitely been known to produce spins of all types by accident. For a right rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will just accelerate it. For a left rudder inverted spin, aft stick and right rudder will cause a crossover to an upright spin - which can be confusing to pilots who have never experienced this.

There are only (3) widely-accepted spin recovery techniques in the acro community. One is for active recovery, and the other two are emergency recovery techniques. The active technique is what most of us probably learned in initial PPL training - PARE (Power off, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite, Elevator forward to some degree). Then there are (2) emergency techniques - Beggs-Muller and the neutral control technique. Beggs-Muller involves pulling power off, applying opposite rudder, and letting go of the stick completely. The neutral control technique involves pulling power, and visually neutralizing ALL controls, and waiting for recovery.

There are good reasons behind these three techniques, and IMO, no other techniques should be (or need to be) taught. And in any case, neutralizing the controls will typically recover any spin type only slightly less quickly as PARE, but is an emergency recovery technique that will work regardless of spin type - unlike the aft stick, right rudder technique.

And all that being said, keep up the good work Smitty. :)
 
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Thanks for taking the time to explain the recovery techniques that you're familiar with. It sounds like you really know your spin stuff!
I'm going to print out your response and on my next lesson with Adam i'll ask him to explain the differences between his method and what you say ( maybe he just misspoke in the moment ).
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn :D
 
Thanks for posting that.

The only aerobatics I've done has been spin training in a Cessna 150 about 25 years ago and in a Decathlon a couple years ago. I've had my -6 for just 9 months, and have not yet gotten instruction for aerobatics in it.

You've inspired me to give it more serious consideration..

Where does Adam Baker reside, by the way...?

Arlen, congrats on getting a -6, and i find that awesome that you've been inspired to give it a try too! :D
The more i get lessons on this stuff, the more comfortable i'm becoming with it. I am looking forward to the day in the not so far future where i'm up there doing this on my own.

Adam lives in the North Dallas area. What part of the country are you in?

- Gene
 
But no matter what, i'm all about learning everything i can about recovery, because i'm sure to goof up something as i learn :D

BTW, in the first video Adam hints at something that most aerobatic and airshow pilots know and/or utilize, but do not necessarily teach to those receiving primary aerobatic/spin training - that is the use of power during spin recoveries. Most aerobatic airplanes will recover a spin (normal, flat, upright, inverted, etc.) more quickly with power than without power. Airshow pilots always leave power in to recover flat spins. But in this case, power is used as an active recovery technique for a spin mode that has been practiced many times to precise and known outcomes. This is a very different concept from emergency spin recovery that would be invoked in cases of accidental spins possibly involving pilot confusion or lost situational awarenesss. In this case, leaving power on can make things worse if your inputs aren't correct. Power off is a way to remove potentially upsetting spin forces, and is virtually universally accepted as a critical step in emergency spin recovery. The first step in training is to ingrain default responses into pilot's brains that will keep them from killing themselves. More advanced techniques can be practiced as the pilot's skill and comfort level increase.
 
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Great video Smitty and thank you for posting.
One thing you always here about the RV series is that they accelerate very quickly in the down line. In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon. I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?
Cant wait for part three!

Richie Rivera
RV7A,
Ormond beach, FL
 
In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon.

Depends on what you're trying to get out of the airplane. Even flying Sportsman level acro, I pretty much fly my Pitts using two throttle positions - wide open and fully closed. The only time it's closed is for spins. Pitts' are very draggy. I don't exceed Vne, but don't bother looking at the tach. :)

I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?

There's no need to make power changes through a loop. If anything, you can add full power on the way up and return to your entry setting on the way down. Or you can do a loop from cruise power without touching a thing. In any airplane, as long as you enter and exit at about the same altitude, you'd need to break some laws of physics to exit with significantly more airspeed than what you entered with. There is also no need to pull more G on the backside compared to what you intially pulled with. Airspeed will only get out of control if you are very tentative pulling through the backside, and end up well below your entry altitude. Severe overspeeding on loops is like blown aileron rolls- it's generally only going to happen if you botch it up during your initial learning attempts. This is what instructors are for. It's very quick and easy to get past this stage and to the point of safely (but not necessarily beautifully) performing the basic figures.
 
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I have to say I'm really enjoying your video's, I am doing the same as you and getting togeather with an instructor once month to tidy up my manouvers.

My challenge at the moment is doing nice clean stall turns keep em coming.

Cheers
 
I have to say I'm really enjoying your video's, I am doing the same as you and getting togeather with an instructor once month to tidy up my manouvers.

My challenge at the moment is doing nice clean stall turns keep em coming.

Cheers
 
Stall warning

Great video on your aerobatics training. What kind of stall warning device do you have in your plane. It sounds like it would get your attention when necessary.
 
Great video Smitty and thank you for posting.
One thing you always here about the RV series is that they accelerate very quickly in the down line. In fact as I've practiced aerobatics in Pitts I've been purposely practicing removing power anytime the nose is pointing below the horizon (after attaining entry speed) and putting power in after the nose crosses above the horizon. I tried to listen to any power changes while you were doing your loop and didn't notice any. By any chance did you notice your airspeed on the way down and did you ever get close to Vne?
Cant wait for part three!

Richie Rivera
RV7A,
Ormond beach, FL

I have to admit, not only is the plane doing a lot of spinning but so is my brain ;)
I have a hard time keeping up with noticing things like that until I go back and review the video of my flights. But even though I've had the concerns of high airspeed on the way down hill I haven't felt like its been on the verge of getting out of hand. And watching the videos seems to confirm that. I'll try to make sure in future videos that I switch to the cam showing the instrument panel so the airspeed shows at those times that it might get high.
BTW - Thanks too all who give their comments and encouragement too!
-Gene
 
Great video on your aerobatics training. What kind of stall warning device do you have in your plane. It sounds like it would get your attention when necessary.

I have the Dynon heated pitot tube with AOA. It feeds my Dynon D10a mini-EFIS for visual indication and is then fed into my audio panel for audio alerts. It's funny though, during my acro lessons I have so much going through my mind I don't hear it half the time until I watch the video playback later.

Speaking of that...
If anyone has any guidance to give me on using AOA during acro, do I want to pay attention to it on the top of a loop to make sure I'm pulling the right amount of Gs as I go over the top?

-Gene
 
If anyone has any guidance to give me on using AOA during acro, do I want to pay attention to it on the top of a loop to make sure I'm pulling the right amount of Gs as I go over the top?

That's a fair question Gene. My strong suggestion would be to forget about referencing AOA during acro. Good aerobatics involves eyeballs outside as much as possible. There is no such thing as the "right" amount of G/AOA (or even airspeed) for any figure. About the only exception I can think of is for snap rolls, which are greatly helped by proper airspeed and pulling to the proper AOA. But the inputs and the snap happen so quickly that AOA would be absolutely useless. Again, looking at AOA won't give you much helpful information, and will only distract you from using your eyeballs and your touch and focusing on flying nicely shaped figures.

There are low G oblong flopped loops, round precision loops, loops w/ snaps on top, half loops with rolls on top, etc. All can involve large variations in possible airspeeds and G loading throughout. It's something you do by feel.
 
Again, looking at AOA won't give you much helpful information, and will only distract you from using your eyeballs and your touch and focusing on flying nicely shaped figures.

Since the AOA has a tone in the headsets (that chirps faster as it gets closer to critical angle of attack) and not just the visual indication, would that change the answer you gave in any way? Say in going over the top of a loop, or at the top of maybe a hammerhead stall?
 
Since the AOA has a tone in the headsets (that chirps faster as it gets closer to critical angle of attack) and not just the visual indication, would that change the answer you gave in any way? Say in going over the top of a loop, or at the top of maybe a hammerhead stall?

You can tell I'm not an AOA user. :) But no, this wouldn't change my answer. I think the aural indication would be annoying to me during acro - like the stall horn in my Pitts. Fuse pulled. Again, there is no precise AOA you need to be at over the top of a loop. There are many ways you can do looping variations. You're actually around zero AOA over the top of a well-performed (round) loop. You can easily feel it. AOA is constantly changing throughout figures. It's not like flying a precision (stabilized) landing approach, where AOA is more useful. And you're also at zero AOA on the upline, pivot, and downline of a Hammerhead. You set precise vertical lines via visual wingtip reference to the horizon. You can also feel the vertical (zero AOA) attitude in your seat. I just can't envision how AOA would be an aid in flying well-performed aerobatic figures. You will very quickly learn the visual cues, the pressures you feel through the stick, the position of the stick, and the feel in the seat of your pants.
 
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Just wondering....what entry speeds do you use for loop & roll entry? They seem higher (170 for loop) than what I use. Cool videos.
 
Just wondering....what entry speeds do you use for loop & roll entry? They seem higher (170 for loop) than what I use. Cool videos.

The POH for my RV shows the range of speeds to do a loop at go from 140mph to 179mph. For no 'good' reason i've always chose the high end value of 170mph because i didn't want to find myself not making it over the top. Once i got that number in my head i've just stuck with it.
If anyone has any guidance on the entry speed i should be using, please feel free to chime in :D

btw - I've uploaded Part 3 of my lesson with Adam Baker. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYbBocp-bEo
 
If anyone has any guidance on the entry speed i should be using, please feel free to chime in :D

I suspect you will get a different answer from every pilot you ask. The RV loops nicely at most any speed that will carry it across the top, up to and including Vne. We have found that formation loops are best done at higher speeds in order to give the wingmen more control authority at the apex of the loop. For solo loops, recommend you try a range of entry speeds and pick one that feels good to you and makes a nice round figure as viewed from the ground.
 
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