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Finalizing Panel: All thoughts welcome

Aiki_Aviator

Well Known Member
Hi all,

I am in the final throws of sending my panel of to be CNC'd and engraved for my RV-10. I am after any and all comments as to the layout to ensure I have missed no specific issues and I have covered all bases.

Link to pdf : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/Panel_Design V2.pdf

UPDATED!!:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/Full Panel 20120130.pdf
- Noted changes: Switches more aligned, panel space for annunciator lights, all positions checked and re-checked. Dial alignment confirmed (Could'nt centralise due to panel supports, trying to maintain standard rear supports). Push to talk still being investigated....

Updated: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/Full%20Panel%2020120202.pdf
Changes: Looking at where I can utilise a remote transponder and how the panel may work with that. Yes there is a new remote transponder that will work with AFS... it's sort of a Trig...
Made modifications in line with many comments from this thread. Thanks guys. Room top left for annunciators. Some technical changes where AFS does not require GPS source change. Note, can't centralise "dials" due to support bracketing. Want to keep rear sections standard.

I have chosen to use some colour coding so that the dash is simplified under stress, and elected to use toggle switches so that they can be easily replaced should it be required.

I have also created some separation on switches to try and segregate the functional requirements.

The colour coding is as follows:

Green (NOW Grey): All good to Go; normal operating position
Yellow: Alternative operating due to failure/problem
White: Standard operating alternative

The instrumentation I am looking at completing in the cutouts is as follows:

--- Primary Instruments ---
2 x AFS 5500 with dual magnetometers, and a single GPS
1 x VPX-Pro (hidden)
1 x AFS Autopilot (flat pack)
1 x PAR100EX - Radio/Audio Panel (Backup radio)
1 x Garmin GTN650
1 x Trig 22 ADSB-out compliant transponder
Dual Alternators (hidden)

--- Backup Instruments ---
1 x 2.25" UMA Airspeed Indicator (thanks Bob...mistype)
1 x 2.25" Winter Altimeter
1 x 2.25" ADI2 with backup battery
1 x Standard whisky compass (on windscreen mount - not shown)

I have also wired a complete bypass electrical solution for a complete VPX-Pro failure. (mid top of panel) Of course this is highly unlikely to happen.

I plan to have this in black anodised aluminium as a replacement for the standard Vans panel.

Please feel free to make any comments, or raise concerns.

And another update: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/2012_02_05_Font_B.pdf
Modified the font to see if this provides an easier readability. Spaced the writing a little further from the switches. Needed to add back the transponder due to certification requirements of ADS-B altitude encoding for 2020. Unfortunately due to space and screw holes, needs to be central. Am happy with that as the primary instruments for backup, Airspeed, AH, Altimeter and Compass all in same position. Modified colurs so that they have more contrast.

Final Panel: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/20130210_Final.pdf
I have now completed the panel and it is being submitted to Front Panels Express.

They have been GREAT!!!! Extremely happy with thier service.

The configuration has changed somewhat, I am now incorporating the Dynon Transponder unit instead of the Trig-22, and have added some additional content.

I want to thank everyone for helping me get to here. The information and discussion has been INVALUABLE.

If anyone wants a copy of the panel file OR wants any of the macro objects I created for the purpose. Just drop me an email. I would be glad to help.



Thanks in advance.
 
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My only comment is, why two altimeters? An airspeed indicator would be beneficial.

If the budget permits, you may want to consider getting one of the smaller monitor screens for the right side. I put one in to entertain the person in the right seat. But it appears that AFS is no longer selling them. Too bad, that was an inexpensive way to display EFIS data.

Bob
 
Double, tripple, quadruple check your spacing.

I finished the layout of my new panel and was thrilled with how well it was all going to work. When I installed my switches and breakers I realized I had miscalculated the spacing and they were a tiny bit too close. I had to scrap the panel.

I finished laying out the second new panel and was thrilled with how well it was all going to work. I test fit everything. I then painted and labeled everything. When I went to reinstall the switches, I realized the keyed ring on the switches was larger than I had allowed for and they slightly covered some of the labeling. It was not enough to force me to disassemble and re-paint/label but it was a bit of a bummer.
 
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Altimeter/Airspeed indicator

Thanks Bob,

Ah, yep. Mistyping. It was a UMA Airspeed Indicator....

When you say AFS is not seloing the smaller monitors.. which ones are you refering to? the 3500 series?

My only comment is, why two altimeters? An airspeed indicator would be beneficial.

If the budget permits, you may want to consider getting one of the smaller monitor screens for the right side. I put one in to entertain the person in the right seat. But it appears that AFS is no longer selling them. Too bad, that was an inexpensive way to display EFIS data.

Bob
 
Aftermarket panel.

Andrew, this is a good opportunity to use a much nicer panel than the flat aluminum sheet Van provides. There are several that really beautify the interior. Here is one:

http://aerosportproducts.com/


I have a modified, three-panel, Lancair panel in mine:

Dash-10.jpg



Best,
 
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Thanks Bob,

Ah, yep. Mistyping. It was a UMA Airspeed Indicator....

When you say AFS is not seloing the smaller monitors.. which ones are you refering to? the 3500 series?


Yes, the 3400, 3500, & 4500. AFS used to offer screens in a variety of functions. One was just a video monitor that slaved off a functional EFIS. So it appears to the user as a fully functional EFIS, but it reality it was just a screen driven by another EFIS. The benefits was to be able to add an additional screen at a much lessor cost.
 
Andrew I like the layout. It is very similar to what I have. Attached is my
Aerosport Standard panel with the AFS 5500 screens. I love the layout
0_0_1f7c9f0f4252552d2aa10e01a6c534eb_1


Geoff
 
Looks like your transponder is in the best place for the round airspeed indicator. And if you have an angle of attack instrument, that might go in that location or to its immediate left.

I'm thinking that the upper left section of the panel is the easiest to scan on take-off or approach and landing.

Dave
 
Andrew,

Overall I like your layout. I've recently done my panel, some of the design concepts being similar to yours. I have a few thoughts to offer. Due to time constraints this afternoon, I'll limit my comments to broad issues.

As has already been mentioned, you gave the transponder better real estate than it deserves. The transponder doesn't need to be part of your instrument scan. I suggest you swap positions, putting the three backup instruments to the left, closer to the center of the pilot's field of view, and put the transponder to the right of them.

Also, consider mounting the transponder in a standard 2.25" round hole configuration, rather than the non-standard smaller cut-out. Using a standard round hole will give you more flexibility for future upgrades. It will also probably be more aesthetically pleasing next to the three other round holes.

Speaking of the round holes, check your screw hole patterns. It looks like the lower left hole on the rightmost instrument hole is out of position. And the center instrument hole doesn't have screw holes... I'm not reviewing it to that level of detail, just something I noticed. Is this meant to be your dimensioned CAD drawing that will get built, or is this just an initial sketch?

Along the same lines as the transponder location, the area above the left EFIS is also prime real-estate, and would be an ideal place for annunciators if you had them. Or otherwise, maybe the A/P if it fits? Anyway, taking up that space with the switches and pots that you have there seems like a waste. Those could go anywhere, certainly don't need to be in the pilot's center of vision.

About the engraved legends, I suggest you have a small test card made to try out different font types, font sizes, font spacing, all caps versus lower case, engraving thickness, and infill colors. You can't judge these well by looking at a drawing. You need to see it for real, in the actual process and materials used, at a realistic distance and range of viewing angles, and under different lighting conditions. I suspect that as you currently have it, it might not be as easy to read as you would want, especially under low light.

About the use of legend colors in general (aside from contrast issues in low light), I think the concept has some merit, but is better to use more judiciously. The objective should be to make it easier to scan the panel and quickly and reliably attain the info you need, whether it's to verify that everything is set in the "normal" condition, or to quickly find a switch that you need to actuate, etc. As you have it currently, it looks to me a little too busy, where the jumble of colors makes scanning the switches more confusing, not less. Personally, I would stay with white for most if not all the legends, and use an accent color (yellow or red) very judiciously, only for something that really warrants it. An example would be a switch to activate a fire suppression system, or an ejection handle, but I don't think you have either of those? ;)

Also, double-check that you have sufficient clearance between the switch holes and legends, so that the nuts that hold the switch bushings in place don't cover up the legends.

Hope that helps.

-Roee
 
CoPi PTT button?

Hi Andrew,
just one thought you might want to add a push to talk button on the CoPi side in case you don't want the CoPi to have the hand on the stick while you fly.


Regards
Michael
 
Looks like you are planning some type of electronic ignition? In standard Lycoming set up you start on left mag, I see right is marked 'start'. Is there a starter button somewhere?
Never mind, I get it. Right is off for start. I guess starter button is just right of mag switch, not labeled.
 
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Andrew,
Congratulations on getting to this point.
Not sure why you are going with individual back up instruments vs. something like a Gemini EFIS. They are under $1,300 and you have a full six pack in a single EFIS that can be powered by a small dedicated back up battery pack for hours on end w/o ships power. I have on in my 8A to back up my dual G3X and love it. (lower right)
Panel-Dark.jpg

I see you have worked hard on symmetry but it seems to me that your farthest left switch hole should not extend further left than the left edge of your PFD. It just looks wrong to me.
Since I have decided to spend your hard earned cash I would suggest you look hard at the possibility of swapping out the GTN650 for a GTN750 and then remote mounting the transponder. I know, I know it's more expensive for sure but that is a single pain vs. years of large screen joy, functionality and added resale. I have played with both for hours and really prefer the large screen GTN750.
I echo other comments on 3rd party panels. Aerosport panels are a really nice upgrade but that is your call.
One last comment. A Whisky Compass really? UGH, I hate having anything obstruct the windscreen view. Especially something you are never likely to need. If for some reason you feel you NEED a mechanical compass to back up your 3 other compasses then I suggest a panel mounted compass to keep your windscreen view clear.
 
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Panel

You may want to think about installing idiot lights that will indicate when your doors are not fully latched. I was in an RV10 where the door departed on takeoff due to not being fully latched in the back. We had a safe landing and now sensors and idiot lights are now present in the panel on that airplane. A mi or but very important mod to your design. You also may want to cut in a glove box since you have the room. Looks great!
 
Like Cubdriver states idiot lights for the doors are a must. My G3X and I'm sure your AFS will allow a discrete in for CAS messages. Mine is a big red annunciator that comes up on the G3X anytime either a fore or aft pin is not fully engaged. Really easy to wire. Just run one ground wire to Van's prox switches on each side. Closed ground creates the CAS message. I also did this on my remote CO gaurdian. Mine reads "LEFT DOOR OPEN" and "RIGHT DOOR OPEN" and "CO ALERT". You can also create an alert with the message. Makes a clean panel.
 
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Like Cubdriver states idiot lights for the doors are a must. My G3X and I'm sure your AFS will allow a discrete in for CAS messages. Mine is a big red annunciator that comes up on the G3X anytime either a fore or aft pin is not fully engaged. Really easy to wire. Just run one ground wire to Van's prox switches on each side. Closed ground creates the CAS message. I also did this on my remote CO gaurdian. Mine reads "LEFT DOOR OPEN" and "RIGHT DOOR OPEN" and "CO ALERT". You can also create an alert with the message. Makes a clean panel.

Sean,

You are being too modest. What is needed more than the idiot light, is your safety latch. Then the idiot light shouldn't ever come on (although I still have them installed)

bob
 
Hi Andrew, I was going to engrave the labels on my panel but in the end I decided to have labels printed onto self adhesive vinyl for greater labelling flexibility....and I'm very glad I did. Engraving is really classy...no doubt about it.....but it absolutely locks you in....and you are virtually certain to want to make changes or additions to the labelling as the actual wiring of the avionics takes place.

I'll give you a few examples of changes I made after the panel was all labelled (none of which I expected). I decided during the actual wiring to make the panel removable so that meant relocating the alternate air vent (change of labelling position). I then decided to put the co-pilot's press-to-talk button on the panel so that it was easier to remove the co-pilot's joystick (new label). After that I decided that I wanted to instal a control wheel steering CWS button on the panel for my autopilot (new label). And so it went. Many unforseen changes.

The problem with doing the panel labelling in advance is that quite often you just don't know what you don't know. If that is the case then it might be better to have a labelling system with some flexibility in it.

Just a comment for your consideration.
 
Engraving

Sorry to hijack this but maybe get some input since it is on the same subject. I am having trouble finding a solution.

I have the Aerosport Symetrical Panel and inserts. They are all cut and drilled for everything, but now need to find somebody that can get them painted or powder coated and engraved with lettering. Do not want to use any stickers of any kind. I am having trouble finding someone that I can have these sent to and get it completed without first trying to learn a software program.

Anybody have any ideas on a solution.

Thanks
Brian
 
Engraving the entire panel vs. other options

... Engraving is really classy...no doubt about it.....but it absolutely locks you in....and you are virtually certain to want to make changes or additions to the labelling as the actual wiring of the avionics takes place. ...

Captain Avgas has a good point about how engraving the entire panel locks you in, so making changes later on becomes very painful. It's a trade-off. But I believe that I've found a happy medium, giving me the best of both worlds. On my panel, rather than have the actual panel engraved, I made five different overlay panels that are individually engraved. If a revision is needed to one of the overlay panels, an individual overlay panel can be swapped out relatively easily and inexpensively, without redoing the entire panel.

20130130_02.jpg


Sorry for the crappy image quality. If you want to see greater detail, here's my CAD drawing:

http://www.kalinskyconsulting.com/rvproj/docs/Panel%20layout.pdf

P.S. My avionics, not installed in this photo, are: AF-5600 EFIS, above it an annunciator panel of my own design, then from left to right a Gemini PFD, TruTrak/AFS autopilot, Trig TT22 transponder, and below those is a GTN-650.

P.P.S. I used Front Panel Express to fabricate my overlay panels, but I used a different tool to design them, not their freebie tool.
 
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More picky things for you - you're very patient!

1. I tend to have my strobes on all the time, on the ground and in the air. I only fly day VFR, just so that you know. My nav lights aren't very useful for collision avoidance in the daytime so those are usually off.

If I'm in any sort of busy area I'll have my landing lights on too.

So I'd change the order of those switches, swapping the strobe switch with the nav light switch.

2. The fuel pump, flaps and pitot heat are adjacent. And the fuel pump is adjacent to the flap switch. I'd move the fuel pump and pitot heat elsewhere. I imagine that the fuel pump will be on for every take off and landing, and perhaps the flaps too, so the switch positions are practically reversed. That is, for landing, one is up and the other down. Hate to accidentally mean to put the flaps down and instead shut off the fuel pump.

3. Would a single three-way avionics switch be worth considering? It would have all three positions: off, master and secondary.

4. Also, and here I have no experience except that I sometimes fly with pilots who are capable of acting as pilot in command - is there some sort of easily available autopilot off/on switch available to the copilot? I'm thinking of a single button, not a toggle switch, that would either invoke altitude and heading hold or disconnect that. Some people put something like this on the stick, but since all airplanes with sticks seem to differ, to me that's an invitation for confusion by the copilot.

5. I agree completely with the earlier suggestion to add storage in the panel. Can't have too much cockpit storage. That said, I am building an RV-3.

Dave
 
Sorry to hijack this but maybe get some input since it is on the same subject. I am having trouble finding a solution.

I have the Aerosport Symetrical Panel and inserts. They are all cut and drilled for everything, but now need to find somebody that can get them painted or powder coated and engraved with lettering. Do not want to use any stickers of any kind. I am having trouble finding someone that I can have these sent to and get it completed without first trying to learn a software program.

Anybody have any ideas on a solution.

Thanks
Brian

Front Panel Express can do that for you. If you want a custom color, you might have to get that done elsewhere first.
 
A few more thoughts

- write your checklists and play them against your panel.
- startup is the least important for driving your panel design, because you're on the ground and have tons of time
- don't place dangerous switches next to safe switches
- make sure your groupings are appropriate. If I had my old AirCam panel to do over, I would have put flaps and fuel pump very close since they were almost always used at the same time.
- put important switches, like fuel pump, at the end of the group
- it might be possible to make a cheap panel out of 020 to check things out before you cut one in 032
- some panels have primary and secondary attitude indicators that both rely on GPS as inputs to the Kalman filters. Looks like you don't have that issue.
- standardization is good. You will bring habits from other planes into your RV, and will take RV habits into other planes
- a Boeing guideline was to never use color as the sole indicator of anything. Red and plain toggles, ok, if spacing separates the reds. Red yellow white - cant condone that concept.

Good luck!

Ed
 
...but now need to find somebody that can get them painted or powder coated and engraved with lettering. Do not want to use any stickers of any kind. I am having trouble finding someone that I can have these sent to and get it completed without first trying to learn a software program.

My favorite is anodized brushed aluminum with laser engraved text. So crisp and clean, and since the laser doesn't remove any aluminum, the panel can be stripped and re-anodized later. Plus, dirt and grime can't collect into the lettering since it's not grooved into the metal.

Let me know if you need my help....we actually do laser engraving for a few RV manufactures.

Besides anodizing, we can laser engrave or CNC route painted or powder coated panels or parts, as well as offer several other options from painted-on lettering, vinyl die-cut lettering, or custom name plates from metal or plastics.

Lots of options and we never make you learn any software....you have more import things to do....like wiring. :D
 
Fantastic information

The info that is coming up on this thread is fantastic. The ideas have definitely already influenced some of the switch locations and made me question heavily some of the approaches.

This is not to say I have changed everything, however, it is great to get a mix of pragmatism, experience and feel.

The discussions around colour, position and approach are just great. Hopefully I will have a final design by end of next week ready for submission.

I am realistic that his panel may change in future, however, I have allowed for some "expansion" space for other switch gear for short term changes.

I still have some stuff to mull over and this should gel over the weekend.

Keep it coming, I'm loving it.
 
New Version - getting there

I have added a new version of the panel to the thread. Some major changes including fitout for remote transponder. Still awaiting some feedback on alternate product for final decision.

Please take a look and comment.
 
I like the movement of the transponder, but I agree with the post on making that a standard 2.25" hole for future compatibility. Also, I would like to see the GPS and auto pilot closer to the pilot, but that would split the screens. I don't see the need to split the radio stack as you have. I always put them in as a single cutout and use aluminum angles to hold it all together and to the panel. You may wish you had the extra space down the road.

Overall looks like a nice layout.
 
Garmin 750

Just a thought. You've got a bunch of money in the panel already and you have room, why not go with the 750? You can remote mount your Transponder and audio panel to make the panel even cleaner.

You can do a 3 position switch for your Pos and Strobes. This way you can use a combination of your choice and save one switch.

Looks good.
 
Unfortunately not that much money in the bank account. :)

However, new modifications complete.

I need to look at panel spacing for the Garmin and PAR100EX, may be a final change.

And another update: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/2012_02_05_Font_B.pdf
Modified the font to see if this provides an easier readability. Spaced the writing a little further from the switches. Needed to add back the transponder due to certification requirements of ADS-B altitude encoding for 2020. Unfortunately due to space and screw holes, needs to be central. Am happy with that as the primary instruments for backup, Airspeed, AH, Altimeter and Compass all in same position. Modified colurs so that they have more contrast.

Just a thought. You've got a bunch of money in the panel already and you have room, why not go with the 750? You can remote mount your Transponder and audio panel to make the panel even cleaner.

You can do a 3 position switch for your Pos and Strobes. This way you can use a combination of your choice and save one switch.

Looks good.
 
Final Panel submitted

Hi all,

Final Panel submitted.

Final Panel: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95034127/20130210_Final.pdf
I have now completed the panel and it is being submitted to Front Panels Express.

They have been GREAT!!!! Extremely happy with thier service. Adrian = excellent :)

The configuration has changed somewhat, I am now incorporating the Dynon Transponder unit instead of the Trig-22, and have added some additional content.

I want to thank everyone for helping me get to here. The information and discussion has been INVALUABLE.

If anyone wants a copy of the panel file OR wants any of the macro objects I created for the purpose. Just drop me an email. I would be glad to help.
 
Panel Update

Hi All,

Well I have an update which is very disturbing...... BUT is still in discussions!!!

I was quoted including shipping a decent price, which included all of the cutouts, infill etc....

Agreed with the quote, sent my credit card and waited eagerly.... :)

I received an email today that basically said,
"we have completed your order, BUT you have to pay TWICE the value for the panel as we stuffed up with the postage costs" :mad:

Now this would not necessarily be a problem if I was in USA, however, being in Australia, this is a big thing, which I requested at the front of the process.... Postage went from $40 up to $350.....

Yep, That's right an increase of nearly 900%..... :eek:

NOTE: I have since found out that USPS basically stiffed them and now they need to discuss the best course of action with me.

NOW, given that the panel has already been produced and is awaiting postage, I was happy to increase my payment to cover all of the postage costs, so that I get a panel and it does not cost Panel Express anything more than it has already.

My interpretation of the initial response:
Sorry, but we would rather throw away the already completed panel rather than post it to you for the postage costs.

NOTE: This is currently in discussion as the end result is yet to be finalised. : It seems the email sent from FPE did not quite convey the correct sentiments.

I could not for the life of me understand why a company:

a) that has stuffed up, and produced a custom item that they cannot use or on-sell, would rather throw it away than make a customer happy????
b) would rather get BAD press, not accept thier responsability and impact thier business rather than gain the GOOD press from doing the morally right thing?????

As I have said to them, I am happy to cover the costs of postage, just not pay more than I could have got it produced here in Australia.

Especially after having me spend all of my time developing it on thier softweare which is NON-TRANSFERABLE to any other product.......

I am sorry, but can someone explain why this is occuring?

However, as discussed, this is still in discussions and maybe the end result will be a reasonable outcome. :eek:


UPDATE!!!!
After some excellent discussions with Scott from FPE, he has more than come to the party , conveying his concern at the current status. He has advise me that the original order with be honoured and the panel sent for the original price, abliet through an alternate supplier. Thanks Scott, Faith restored....

Fere to the rest of this thread for detailed update.
 
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Nice looking panel.
I have an AFS in my -7 and it is fantastic. I have been toying with the idea of updating it to a 5500.
However.....
Im assuming you are planning on IFR.
There is a reasonable amount of debate whether you will be able to get an IFR CofA with non certified (TSOd) instruments shortly in Oz under proposed CAO 20.18 changes.
Ive mothballed my panel upgrade for now and shelved my -10 build due to reg uncertainty.
May be worth checkin out before you cut the really big cheque (check:))
cheers
 
IFR in Oz

Hi Richard,

Yes, designed for IFR.

Yep, that IFR in Oz is a bad situation. I am part of a working party with SAAA to try and address this issue with some constructive approaches to ensure IFR for Experimental continues.

We are looking at maintaining the existing regime and/or proposing another methodology to ensure safe skies for everyone. Our primary issue is that the old TSO'd gear is actually LESS safe than the existing equipment. Hopefully we can address this successfully and make sure that the future of aviation is safer, not less so due to bureaucracy...
 
WHAT...???

If that was my panel, I'd verify that they really wanted to this (break their promise to you), then block my CC, let them throw away the panel, order a new one from Vans, have Vans ship the new panel directly to someone who can cut out your panel AND who'll stand behind their word and then move on...

NO sense doing business with people who doesn't keep their promises. :mad:

Let's know how it turns out please? It'll be very interesting to hear about the final outcome. :eek:
 
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I agree with Alf. Andrew, if anything, you are being too forgiving of their poor business conduct. Mistakes like this happen, and they admitted it was their mistake in generating the quote. Ok. But as such, they need to suck it up and deliver what they promised you at the cost they quoted you, even if at a loss to them. Anything less will leave you short-changed. As even if you simply walk away from them at this point, you've already invested much time and effort in their offering based on that quote.

For what it's worth, I've spent hundreds of dollars with that outfit over the past few months (for my instrument panel overlays and a few other items), and to this point I had been happy with their service. I've recommended them to others, and have even considered using them in the future as a supplier for my business. With your issue pending, I can no longer recommend them, and I'm having serious doubts about them as a vendor I could rely on for my business. That's really disappointing. I hope they understand that by not making this right in your case, they'll be losing more business than just yours.

If you think it may be helpful, feel free to forward this message to them.
 
Great, thanks for helping out trying to resolve it.

We are looking at maintaining the existing regime and/or proposing another methodology to ensure safe skies for everyone. Our primary issue is that the old TSO'd gear is actually LESS safe than the existing equipment. Hopefully we can address this successfully and make sure that the future of aviation is safer, not less so due to bureaucracy...

Yes it beggars belief that they somehow think a couple of grand worth of vacuum pumps and boat anchor instruments are safer, but I guess that just makes me worried that safety actually isnt their motivation.

The nav part is already covered by IFR TSO GPS requirements - and im not aware of non-cerftified nav radios being used.
I can just buy the argument for a TSO'd encoder/tranponder combo for Alt info in CTA. (and its cheap anyway)
But after that I dont see the rationale for the changes.

Hopefully it gets clarified or resolved positively quickly! Best of luck with that process, lots of us are watching closely. I wouldnd mind keeping up to date with progress.

Cheers
 
FrontPanelExpress to the rescue...

Hi All,

Well I am happy to report, I am again a happy customer. I gave Front Panel Express (FPE) a call and had a long "deep and meaningful" with Scott, the Operations Manager and we got to a final resoulution. This resolution, I must say, was better than I had actually asked and hoped for. Thanks Scott.

The full story and outcome are as follows:

  1. Yes, FPE did do a quote for me with shipping at $40.
  2. This quote was based on a back-to-back quote received from USPS
  3. When FrontPanel went to ship, USPS basically said they would not take the shipment. Too long...
  4. FPE then looked around for a method that would allow shipping and what would be the best price they could get.
  5. Best price FPE received from UPS and others was $355.
  6. FPE advised me that this was the shipping cost that they had received, and would be happy to cancel the order if I required it.

Now, from my discussion with Scott, this is where there was a little misunderstanding. It appears that FPE was still trying to come to the best arrangement given the fact that they were basically stiffed by USPS. :mad:

It seems that the email wording did not quite convey the intent of the discussion FPE wanted to have regarding the outcome and delivery of the panel.

The end result of the discussion was that FPE was happy to send the panel to me for the original order price. Scott was most concerned about the situation and my experience with them and went out of his way to accomodate my needs.

As such I would like to add my name to the chorus of those who have received excellent service from FPE.

All in all, I received a good quality service, albeit a few bumps along the way.

I have also suggested to Scott that if they are able, maybe they can collect and incorporate a dxf/CNC file library of Avionics instrumentation from all those who create panels. This should grow at quite a great rate and would be highly beneficial for all of the aviation community. If there is support for this option, please drop FPE an email and let them know.

If anyone wants to discuss this further please just PM me.

Thanks everyone for thier comments. And if anyone has some better postage options that FPE could use for shipping OS, especially Oz, then please drop them a line and let them know. We in Oz pay dearly for shipping and any help is welcomed.

Now I just can't wait till it arrives........ :D
 
Glad you got that all worked out.

It serves as a reminder to us all, a phone call can resolve a bunch of issues that only get bigger and bigger trying to solve them via email.

I had great luck and a great experience with FPE. The only downside to using them for me is the small list of colors available in their powder coat option...
 
Wire EDM it in 2 pieces?

A wire EDM cut can be as narrow as .010" to .020"

Why not cut it just right of the RH AFS hole if it reduces shipping to $40. ?

A carefully planned doubler behind could make the cut a non issue.
 
As someone who buys quite a lot of gear from the States, postage is an absolute rort. It is a way for suppliers to pad their prices (with a couple of exceptions). Vans are very good, Spruce excellent. Gulf Coast a joke and don't start me on those clowns from FedEx :cool: Have you heard of sending people a tracking number? And really, not sending to a P.O. Box? 21st century boys & girls.......
 
Panel has arrived: what a beaut.....

The panel has now arrive from OS, and it looks GREAT!!!

I have over mapped it with the original one from VANS and it will fit nicely.

My only concern is where I hav put all of the lower switch gear. It is very tight. But this is my doing not FPE.

Critiquing my own work are as follows:
1) Black Anodizing was a good choice
2) Yellow great colour
3) Grey as a back-up a good color
4) Orange better than expected, good colour
5) Red NOT as obvious,
6) positioning of the switch layout (left to right), and instrumentation position was excellent.

Details here:
Panel Page on my Kitlog

Thanks to Scott, Adrian and Chad from Front Panel Express. Great product.

Full Panel:
FP05032013A0001J.jpg


Left Side:
FP05032013A0001K.jpg


Emergency Switch Gear:
FP05032013A0001L.jpg
 
And really, not sending to a P.O. Box? 21st century boys & girls.......
While I agree with everything you've said, someone with a P.O. Box shouldn't be harping on someone to get into the 21st Century...
 
Snowflake, I don't get the point you are making? The main reason I have a P.O. Box is identity theft. I don't want anything with my name on it sitting in my mailbox or left on my front verandah.

The other reason is I'm not home much. I don't know how it works in Canada but Fedex deliver between 8 and 5. If you're not home they leave a card in the mail box. I've then got to drive out to their depot and pick the item up between 6 and 8pm. If the clowns would deliver the item to the box, I pick it up at my convenience. But no, Fedex knows best :-(

Twice, an item has been addressesd to my P.O. Box, they state that they donot deliver to the box in a phone call from them and the item sent back to the States a day or two later. I'm unable to have my cell on in the environment I work in. I didn't receive a tracking number from either the sender or Fedex in either case.

UPS deliver to a P.O. Box, US post does too. Fedex, 21st century? I think not. Postage, especially international is a scam.
 
Snowflake, I don't get the point you are making? The main reason I have a P.O. Box is identity theft. I don't want anything with my name on it sitting in my mailbox or left on my front verandah.

The other reason is I'm not home much. I don't know how it works in Canada but Fedex deliver between 8 and 5. If you're not home they leave a card in the mail box. I've then got to drive out to their depot and pick the item up between 6 and 8pm. If the clowns would deliver the item to the box, I pick it up at my convenience. But no, Fedex knows best :-(

Twice, an item has been addressesd to my P.O. Box, they state that they donot deliver to the box in a phone call from them and the item sent back to the States a day or two later. I'm unable to have my cell on in the environment I work in. I didn't receive a tracking number from either the sender or Fedex in either case.

UPS deliver to a P.O. Box, US post does too. Fedex, 21st century? I think not. Postage, especially international is a scam.

Off Topic, but......

Fedex will deliver to their Kinkos/Fedex Office stores. I'm fortunate enough to have one close to the house and it's open to 11pm. Nice for expensive avionics you don't want sitting on the porch or having to go to a Fedex terminal. The other benefit is that you don't pay the residential surchage either for delivery.
 
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