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Just another all-Garmin IFR panel, BUT…

Hartstoc

Well Known Member
Two years ago I decided to drop everything, build myself a new hangar at KSTS, and finish the plethora of complicated modifications that took my RV-7A out of service for 32 months. This has also taken me away from VAF for quite some time, but now I’ve got a LOT that I’m looking forward to sharing here. I decided to wait until I had significant flight experience with all of the changes, so now I can boast of 150 squawk-free flight hours over a one year period. This flying has been more or less equally divided between aerobatics, cross-country, instrument, and local pleasure flying. It is remarkable that any one airplane can do all of these things so very well.

2v2azfj58xBELK5.jpg


I thought I’d begin with some discussion of the instrument panel pictured above, which has some features that I think anyone in the process of creating a fully-coupled IFR panel might find interesting. It is shown here during a solo cross country VFR flight. I recently completed my IFR recurrency working with my good friend Art Hayssen, a local CFII (more than 11,000 hours flight instruction). Art was pretty blown away by its IFR performance and is even thinking about replicating my panel to the greatest possible extent in his Piper Aztec!

For starters, I cannot say enough about the advantages of going All-Garmin if that is possible for your build, especially with the autopilot elements. The magic of can-bus communication greatly simplifies installation and results in a reliable, user-friendly panel that takes full advantage of the phenomenal capabilities embedded in the G3X system. All components “talk nicely” with one another, and this really pays off during fully-coupled IFR procedures.

Essential components of my panel include(and I’m starting with the iPad on purpose): an 11” iPad Pro prominently swivel-mounted at eye level in portrait mode, a GTN750xi, the 10”G3XTouch, one G-5, the GTX345 transponder(without gps as it gets that from the GTN), the GMA245 audio panel, the GMC507 flight director, GSA28 servos for pitch and roll, and the GTR20 remote (com2) for the G3X. Of course there are numerous additional remote items required to integrate all of this with the aircraft.

2v2azfF4jxBELK5.jpg


So what choices make THIS all-Garmin panel different and special?

1- Note the location of the canopy-jettison pull. Considerable effort was required to move the entire radio stack 5” to the left of where is is normally installed in RV’s having the jettison feature. This required designing some new linkage to allow the jettison pull to move about 4” to the right. As a result, the GTN750/G3X/G5 cluster is tightly packed and very pilot-centric. The less you have to move your eyes around to scan during busy IFR work, the better. But there is another reason-

2- My favorite feature of the GTN750 is its traffic depiction, and that is the reason I encourage biting the bullet and going with the 750 over smaller screens. Even during Practice IFR flights in VFR conditions I always keep that big “radar screen” up(see photo)and conflicting traffic gets your attention even in peripheral vision. It has alerted me to at least a half dozen close encounters that I would never even had noticed without it. Even when the GTN is in other display modes, it hits you with a prominent alert of nearby conflicting traffic.

3- Could one G3X actually be BETTER than two? I think so, and for several reasons. There is no way for a second MFD to be “pilot centric” located way over there on the right side pointing toward the (often empty) passenger seat. You can save 5-7# installed weight and thousands of dollars by omitting it. Not having two allows you to reserve the entire right side for a nice, big 11” iPad. A super sturdy Ram mount allows you to point the iPad directly at your face so, voila!, it also becomes pretty darn pilot-centric. It is a joy to do all of your flight planning using ForeFlight at home or in the hotel on the iPad, click it into the ram mount, and bluetooth-crossfill to the G3X, which then auto-crossfills to the GTN. If you make a course change or add a procedure on the GTN, that crossfills back to the G3X and, in turn, becomes available to the iPad. I regard the iPad as being nearly as essential as either of those other two instruments, and having it mounted at eye level where you can use one hand to pull up plates, zoom and shrink, etc., etc. Is just WAY better than having it knocking around the cabin, and it could save your bacon during a widespread electrical failure. Always avoid looking down too much!
(Edit: I know many pilots love their PFD+MFD setups, and I’m not looking to offend anyone. I guess another way to put this is that, for me, having a well-mounted, easily accessed iPad outweighs any possible benefit of a second panel mounted screen in today's world.)

4- The audio panel, transponder, and flight director COULD all be remote devices accessed through the G3X and GTN touchscreens, saving money, panel space, and even a few ounces. Why didn’t I do that? Well, take a close look at the photo. I generally keep my right hand on or near the throttle. Note the close proximity of all of the hard buttons on those three units(and all other switches on the panel) to that location. I’ve developed pretty good muscle-memory for them, and I really like having them at the ready full-time. By contrast, if they are remoted, you have to interrupt whatever screen configuration you have running on the G3X or GTN, and then reverse that after making the change. That is fine during leisurely VFR flights, but such distractions are the last thing you need flying IFR. To be honest, I could live with a remote transponder, but personally would never consider remoting the flight director or the audio panel.

5- It is a personal preference of mine to have minimal switches on the control stick(I don’t like flexing wires or straining connections) so the PTT and CWS(autopilot control wheel steering) buttons are the only ones there. Everything else is hard mounted in easy reach of the right hand. I even re-purposed the old Ray Allen trim servo rocker switches as you can see. I also favor mil-spec switches for their durability and reliability. Note the autopilot master that kills the flight director and both servos if I ever want to get rid of it fast, and the Avionics master, which is a 2PST with the feed parallel wired through both poles for a degree of redundancy.

6- Finally, DO go with the GMC507 flight director, as it allows you to take full advantage of all features of the G500 autopilot system that is embedded in G3X architecture.

Ultimately, after a year of pretty intense flying, I feel like I got lucky with my design choices, and there really is not a single thing I would change.

As a teaser for future posts, note that the photos contains a center console, an unusual master switch, and a few other oddities I did not mention. I’m proud of this panel for being a good execution, but admit that Garmin deserves all of the credit for making it a a true wonder.

The other stuff, though, I think is pretty revolutionary, and I will be posting about it before too long. This will include systems optimizing the advantages of high power-density lithium batteries for aircraft, a fuel delivery system that is many times more reliable than those found on most aircraft, and together these provide electron-dependent birds like mine at least twice the intrinsic reliability and redundancy of any magneto/mechanical fuel pump equipped aircraft.- Otis Holt

This photo hand flying an IFR approach during recurrency training:

2v2a8jNi8xBELK5.jpg
 
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My panel is also all Garmin, and after 570 hours with the Garmin panel, including IFR, X-C, and local flying, I agree with you on the utility of the panel. But my experience is different in a few ways.

Having the autopilot on top of the stack means that my hand doesn't block the view of the buttons I'm pushing. I don't think I've ever encountered a situation in which being able to go from engine power to autopilot in a hurry was convenient.

In flight, I almost never go from throttle/prop/mixture to avionics, so placing buttons down there doesn't work for me. And I almost never touch the transponder once it's set before takeoff.

I have a 307 and not a 507 autopilot controller because the upgrade from a 305 required no wiring change. Agreed that the altitude and heading select buttons are really useful. Functionally, the only difference between 307 and 507 is that the 507 has the Track button, a function that is available on the main screen. However, the track mode indicator line on the map disappears after a few seconds, diminishing its usefulness.

I strongly disagree with having only one big screen! And especially with the statement that a second big screen is too far away and hard to read. The useful data on a screen is almost always in the center of the screen, so the trick is to put the MFD in split screen mode and bring that desired data closer. Trimming the sides of the screen involves little if any loss of useful display space. This split also means that you can put a PFD display (and power gauges) on the far side of the MFD for flying with friends, which I do a lot. As a CFI, I maintain proficiency from both sides, and it's easier to have a PFD on the right side.

I agree with your choice of putting the engine instruments next to the flight instruments. Having them on the right side of the cockpit is just duplicating a shortcoming of steam gauge cockpits (except late model C172s had them on the left).

I always use round dials as they are easier to read than tapes when you only have a second to read them. I've never seen a study stating that tapes are easier to read, especially when you only have time for a glance and don't already know what to look for. BTW, tapes aren't really modern. The first vertical tapes showed up in 1925.

As for the curved labels around the switches... not sure how that helps readability.

Since I bought the RV-9A already flying, I wasn't willing to do a total panel replacement and rewiring, although I did a bunch! In case of total electrical failure, I can fly a non-precision approach on a G5 and aera 660 with geo-referenced approach plates. It's not that hard!

All my flight plans have been easy enough to enter on the GTN650 in the airplane, so no need felt to do them before getting to the airplane. Saved a few bucks there.

The big questions, of course, are: Does the panel give you utility and safety with acceptable workload? And does it fit your personal style of operating and preferences? For both of us, I think the answer to all these questions is yes.
 
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I'm years of from putting in a panel, but one thing that I noticed is how big everything Garmin makes is, compared to Dynon stuff. Makes me wonder if the dynon stuff is harder to use being smaller. The Garmin panels all look so full with their big AP, radio, and comm panel.
 
Nice looking panel. You can get rid of the TRIM annunciation on your PFD if you go to the LRU config page and change all the Trim Servo LRU items to Disabled.
 
Nice looking panel. You can get rid of the TRIM annunciation on your PFD if you go to the LRU config page and change all the Trim Servo LRU items to Disabled.

Thanks- That is something I've been meaning to look into and have just ignored it.
 
I'm years of from putting in a panel, but one thing that I noticed is how big everything Garmin makes is, compared to Dynon stuff. Makes me wonder if the dynon stuff is harder to use being smaller. The Garmin panels all look so full with their big AP, radio, and comm panel.

Not sure what you are referring to on the size difference. The Dynon stuff is insanely easy/user friendly.
 
Otis, awesome panel man! My layout is similar to yours and I love having the iPad instead of a second screen as well. I'm so glad that people on this forum recommended that to me instead of dropping another 4.5k on a second screen.
 
My panel is also all Garmin, and after 570 hours with the Garmin panel, including IFR, X-C, and local flying, I agree with you on the utility of the panel. But my experience is different in a few ways.

Having the autopilot on top of the stack means that my hand doesn't block the view of the buttons I'm pushing. I don't think I've ever encountered a situation in which being able to go from engine power to autopilot in a hurry was convenient.

In flight, I almost never go from throttle/prop/mixture to avionics, so placing buttons down there doesn't work for me. And I almost never touch the transponder once it's set before takeoff.


I strongly disagree with having only one big screen! And especially with the statement that a second big screen is too far away and hard to read. The useful data on a screen is almost always in the center of the screen, so the trick is to put the MFD in split screen mode and bring that desired data closer. Trimming the sides of the screen involves little if any loss of useful display space. This split also means that you can put a PFD display (and power gauges) on the far side of the MFD for flying with friends, which I do a lot. As a CFI, I maintain proficiency from both sides, and it's easier to have a PFD on the right side.

I agree with your choice of putting the engine instruments next to the flight instruments. Having them on the right side of the cockpit is just duplicating a shortcoming of steam gauge cockpits (except late model C172s had them on the left).

As for the curved labels around the switches... not sure how that helps readability.

The big questions, of course, are: Does the panel give you utility and safety with acceptable workload? And does it fit your personal style of operating and preferences? For both of us, I think the answer to all these questions is yes.

Ed- Thanks for your thoughtful comments. We are lucky to have the freedom to personalize our aircraft. My main point about going with one G3X is that it allows room for maximizing the use of ForeFlight and the iPad, whose utility has grown by leaps and bounds. I can say I’ve never felt any lack of access to info with just one 10” G3X, but I’m not denying the utility of a second screen, especially if you are flying with a copilot. It really is also a luxury to have everything pointed right at your face. Having all the hard buttons low is not to keep them close to the throttle but close to my free hand with minimal up and down reaching. The curved labels are mostly a personal design aesthetic, but it does better associate each marking to the relevant switch than a straight row of lettering when things are close together. I agree with your closing note, and also would say that with ever-changing technology coming along, you are usually better off to stick with what you have if it works well for you, rather than chasing each new shiny object that comes along. Happy Flying!- Otis
 
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Fuses and breakers

Otis: great-looking panel - glad I saw it as I'm ordering up my G3X components.

What is protected by fuses, and why?

thx
 
The where and why of fuses-

Otis: great-looking panel - glad I saw it as I'm ordering up my G3X components.

What is protected by fuses, and why?

thx

Thanks, great question. It was my hope that this post would be of some use to builders in the process of designing their panels. All of my primary component electrical protection is via pullable breakers but there are also two lightweight fuse blocks. One is not accessible in flight and protects non-essential things like the USB charger, certain lighting components, etc., and the other, visible on the center console and super-accessible in flight as it protects essential loads, the twin plasma III ignitions and the twin electric fuel pumps(there is no engine driven pump on this bird). Note that each of these loads has arbitrary, full-time access to either of my two EarthX ETX900V batteries, so each requires not one but two fuses for individual protection. I elected to let both fuel pumps share a single fuse to each battery, though. Much more on the battery system in a future thread- truly exciting stuff.

The best answer to your question(What is protected by fuses and why?) is probably “Whenever it makes the most sense”. Breakers are a lot heavier, and their wiring takes up far more space, so using them on low-load, peripheral accessories becomes harder to justify. - Otis

Here are the things I deemed worthy of breakers:
2v2azTLavxBELK5.jpg

Note that most Garmin components have two power inputs dioded from one another so each requires two breakers if you use them both. I took advantage of this by feeding power from the main avionics switch to the p1 inputs on everything in the long bracket on the top row. P2 inputs bracketed in the bottom row receive power through the Aux Garmin Power switch at the top of my center console, and that double throw on-off-on switch has direct full-time access either EarthX battery. A huge advantage of this is that I can power partial avionics off the auxiliary bus switched to one battery, choose the other battery with the master switch for starting the engine before energizing the alternator field or main avionics switch. Thus the electronics see nothing of the voltage caos during startup. As I recall the GTX345 power inputs may not be dioded, but this is easily remetied by adding diodes to the respective power feeds.
 
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IPad cooling-

The mount is not a cooler, but problems have been rare and manageable so far. I actually carry a spare iPad cloned to my primary when I travel. ForeFlight involves a lot of processing so it does get warm. The ram mount is open-backed because I drilled large holes to lighten it, and there is good air circulation around it and both help with cooling, and I try to shade it when it is being nailed by direct right-quartering sunlight.- O
 
Thanks, great question. It was my hope that this post would be of some use to builders in the process of designing their panels. All of my primary component electrical protection is via pullable breakers but there are also two lightweight fuse blocks. One is not accessible in flight and protects non-essential things like the USB charger, certain lighting components, etc., and the other, visible on the center console and super-accessible in flight as it protects essential loads, the twin plasma III ignitions and the twin electric fuel pumps(there is no engine driven pump on this bird). Note that each of these loads has arbitrary, full-time access to either of my two EarthX ETX900V batteries, so each requires not one but two fuses for individual protection. I elected to let both fuel pumps share a single fuse to each battery, though. Much more on the battery system in a future thread- truly exciting stuff.

The best answer to your question(What is protected by fuses and why?) is probably “Whenever it makes the most sense”. Breakers are a lot heavier, and their wiring takes up far more space, so using them on low-load, peripheral accessories becomes harder to justify. - Otis

Great answer!

My plane came with circuit breakers, and when I'm doing large database uploads, I pull the breakers on everything that's not getting data uploaded... or new software. Don't know how much this preserves the battery, but might make a difference when it's getting low.

I've got a switch installed, but not yet wired, that will give power to the two display screens through their built in, diode protected secondary power input, so I will be able to turn them on outside of the master switch when doing database uploads. This power source uses a pre-existing fuse on the battery charger.
 
Hi Otis, Tell me about that Ipad pro, if you would. How easy is it to see in bright sunlight?? I've presently got a Nexus 9, which for my old eyes, "is" easy to see in bright sunlight. But its starting to go Tango Uniform. I had an ipad before, but it was really hard to see in bright sunlight, which of course, is why I'm asking.
 
The proof is in the usage . . .

Nice Panel!! I would love to push plans from FF but have the non-touch.

I had always flown with round gauges but went full electronic. I was lost in my first sessions for IFR retraining but after a few flights my brain suddenly adapted and knew what to look for on a scan. Sitting and writing what I wanted and where to look helped a lot. The moving map is there, but invisible to me unless needed in the soup on short final to see the airport. Maybe I process, but don't see it.

I have the Ray Allen handle with more buttons and really like that. The trim button availability is ok, but a hat would be welcome. The PTT co-pilot on the panel is something I mistakenly did not do. Good thinking on yours.

Where did you put your TOGA?

Oh Oh . . . . really like the usable screen on that 750!!!

Two thumbs up.
 
Hi Otis, Tell me about that Ipad pro, if you would. How easy is it to see in bright sunlight?? I've presently got a Nexus 9, which for my old eyes, "is" easy to see in bright sunlight. But its starting to go Tango Uniform. I had an ipad before, but it was really hard to see in bright sunlight, which of course, is why I'm asking.

The iPad 11” pro, though not nearly as bright as the garmin instruments, has never presented a problem for me due to brightness. The main issue is with polarizing sunglasses, which do require that it be mounted in portrait rather than landscape mode. The ease with which you can expand and shrink the region you are trying to see generally saves the day if you cannot make it out at first glance. It does become important to have a noise-free charge port available to it, however, as the bright screen in combination with processor-hungry ForeFlight sucks a lot of energy.- Otis
 
Nice Panel!! I would love to push plans from FF but have the non-touch.

I had always flown with round gauges but went full electronic. I was lost in my first sessions for IFR retraining but after a few flights my brain suddenly adapted and knew what to look for on a scan. Sitting and writing what I wanted and where to look helped a lot. The moving map is there, but invisible to me unless needed in the soup on short final to see the airport. Maybe I process, but don't see it.

I have the Ray Allen handle with more buttons and really like that. The trim button availability is ok, but a hat would be welcome. The PTT co-pilot on the panel is something I mistakenly did not do. Good thinking on yours.

Where did you put your TOGA?

Oh Oh . . . . really like the usable screen on that 750!!!

Two thumbs up.

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, even though There is a physical button atop the pax side stick, it is not connected, so I can easily remove the stick so it does not interfere with my wife’s knitting projects when travelling(you would be amazed how much turbulence is required to make her stop! I’m a lucky guy.) Yes, I could add a quick disconnect but, ironically, the more complex your systems become, the more the KISS principle applies. The panel mount co-pilot PTT works just fine.

The TOGA button was not yet labeled when the photo was taken, but it is the black button midway up the right side of the 750.

I also got my IFR ticket on round gauges back in the 1990’s, and I know some other older pilots have trouble making the transition. For me, once I developed a functional scan of the G3X, glass quickly became far easier than steam gauges ever were. I dread the thought of ever needing to fly IFR the old way again.- Otis
 
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Nice panel Otis. I'm in the planning stages of a panel upgrade and my ideas are pretty close to yours.

Since you used a single G3X screen, did you install dual ADHRS for redundancy? Or just depend on the G5's internal ADHRS for backup?
 
Since you used a single G3X screen, did you install dual ADHRS for redundancy? Or just depend on the G5's internal ADHRS for backup?

On my RV-9A, the G5 is on the CAN bus and provides backup ADHRS functionality to the G3X. Even though the G5 and ADHRS are both Garmin products, they use different hardware and software to avoid common mode errors. This is a better solution than dual ADHRS.
 
Nice panel Otis. I'm in the planning stages of a panel upgrade and my ideas are pretty close to yours.

Since you used a single G3X screen, did you install dual ADHRS for redundancy? Or just depend on the G5's internal ADHRS for backup?

I did not install dual ADAHRS because I felt that the G5’s built in Unit would provide sufficient backup. I see that Ed suggests in a response above that the G3X can somehow directly access the G5 ADHRS as backup, but I was not aware of any such option so did not provide for that. I will look into it, though, it might be possible somewhere in configuration(Ed?).- Otis
 
Another data point in favor of the G5 is since it's connected to the G3X and other LRUs via the CAN bus, it can also drive the Garmin GSA28 servos by itself giving you not only a redundant ADAHRS but also a redundant autopilot controller should the G3X fail.
 
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G5 driving the autopilot

Yes, in fact I have the G5 running the GSA28 servos all by itself (no G3X).

IMHO, two G5s (one as an AI, one as an HSI) and the Garmin autopilot would make an insanely capable and very cost-effective upgrade for an older six-pack panel, providing tons of capability and redundancy and no more vac pump needed. I'm not familiar with the equivalent Dynon products but I suspect the cost-benefit equation would be the same.

Another data point in favor of the G5 is since it's connected to the G3X and other LRUs via the CAN bus, it also drive the Garmin GSA28 servos giving you not only a redundant ADAHRS but also a redundant autopilot controller should the G3X fail.
 
One other difference

Functionally, the only difference between 307 and 507 is that the 507 has the Track button, a function that is available on the main screen.

I think the 507 also produces an audio warning of autopilot disconnect, while the 307 does not. I think that difference is non-trivial, as I have in fact had the autopilot lose consciousness on me. I looked into the possibility of an upgrade path from the 307 to the 507 for this reason, and unfortunately the upgrade path consisted of "buy the 507 at full price." :D As you note, it would also require some re-wiring.

In case of total electrical failure, I can fly a non-precision approach on a G5 and aera 660 with geo-referenced approach plates. It's not that hard!

I had that problem IRL one night with a G5 and an iPad with Foreflight, and I can confirm it's really not a problem to shoot an approach with that setup. A G5 with a battery backup, and an iPad or the equivalent with georeferenced plates, is an amazing amount of "no electrical system required" capability. Think what Lindbergh would have given for the equivalent!!
 
Yes, that is a given-

Another data point in favor of the G5 is since it's connected to the G3X and other LRUs via the CAN bus, it can also drive the Garmin GSA28 servos by itself giving you not only a redundant ADAHRS but also a redundant autopilot controller should the G3X fail.

Yes, it is a given that the marvelously capable G5 can run the autopilot servos. The G5 is not strictly a VFR backup- if the G3X goes TU during an IFR approach, the G5 seamlessly takes over.

I think the G5 is generally under-appreciated because it hides any capabilities that are not actively useable. I will never own an airplane not having at least one of these beauties!- Otis
 
I could not agree more!

IMHO, two G5s (one as an AI, one as an HSI) and the Garmin autopilot would make an insanely capable and very cost-effective upgrade for an older six-pack panel, providing tons of capability and redundancy and no more vac pump needed. I'm not familiar with the equivalent Dynon products but I suspect the cost-benefit equation would be the same.

I could not agree more!
 
I think the 507 also produces an audio warning of autopilot disconnect, while the 307 does not.

Hmm, getting into fine points above my pay grade, but I definitely get autopilot disconnect warnings with G3X Touch and 307. Don't know who does what with the 507. Don't know about miscompare warnings, and don't have any way to try that.

In response to another question, going from ADHRS inputs to G5 is automatic if the ADHRS goes off line. I think I tried that once by pulling the ADHRS circuit breaker. Since the magnetometer goes through the ADHRS on my plane, everything switched from heading to track... which is what you really want, anyway, aside from vectors. I also lost OAT, hence TAS. And you need both TAS and heading to get winds aloft.
 
G3x vs. G5

I think the presence of the G3x is the key. My understanding is that if you’re running the autopilot with a G5, the 507 can produce an audible warning (if appropriately wired into your audio panel) but the 307 cannot.

I could well be wrong. In any event, if there’s some way for my G5/307 combo to alert me when the autopilot dies (other than a very small flashing yellow A on the G5 screen), I’m all ears so to speak. It’s taken a nap on me in flight three times that I can recall. Hasn’t done it in a while, though.

Hmm, getting into fine points above my pay grade, but I definitely get autopilot disconnect warnings with G3X Touch and 307. Don't know who does what with the 507. Don't know about miscompare warnings, and don't have any way to try that.

In response to another question, going from ADHRS inputs to G5 is automatic if the ADHRS goes off line. I think I tried that once by pulling the ADHRS circuit breaker. Since the magnetometer goes through the ADHRS on my plane, everything switched from heading to track... which is what you really want, anyway, aside from vectors. I also lost OAT, hence TAS. And you need both TAS and heading to get winds aloft.
 
Distinct CWS Button?

5- It is a personal preference of mine to have minimal switches on the control stick(I don’t like flexing wires or straining connections) so the PTT and CWS(autopilot control wheel steering) buttons are the only ones there.

@hartstoc I am wondering how you were able to have a distinct CWS button with the GFC500. All the material I read so far would indicate that a long-press-and-hold of the AP Disconnect button would enable CWS, but that it is not possible to have a distinct button for it. However your setup seems to suggest otherwise. How did you do that?
 
Ultimately, after a year of pretty intense flying, I feel like I got lucky with my design choices, and there really is not a single thing I would change.

Great panel layout!

I'm curious about the upper right corner of your G3X. It has EMERG available to touch. Is this just a shortcut to SmartGlide? Similar to holding the "Direct To" button for three seconds?

Also curious if it is possible to add a canopy jettison feature to an RV12iS. The safety benefits of this capability are numerous and I am envious every time I see it in other Van's RV aircraft.
 
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