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Who said no night flights?

bret

Well Known Member
I can't remember if it was Paul or some one else who said, no night flying for them and a whole other set of no no criteria. So, this week end.........I planed a trip to see the parents in Norther Ca. from the Tahoe area. I have made this trip many times before in the day light but......The original plan was to leave 10 min before sun rise, weather and pre flight all good to go, but, we ended up departing a lot earlier, (military training, I hate to be late), so, as we were gaining altitude to clear the mountain range, and the city lights of Carson City disappeared behind us, I began to notice how dark is was becoming, as in, no definitive line of the horizon. On board, we have a 6 pack, 430 and Wing X. I felt confident and in control until we encountered severe turbulence over Truckee and for another 30 min. I was finding myself recalling the instrument training (many years ago) of flying actual IMC. I was telling myself, this is bad, finding it very difficult to maintain heading and altitude with the severe up and down drafts taking us all over the place and trying to maintain critical terrain clearance. I did not anticipate that I was going to have to rely totally on the instruments for this VFR....night flight.
My back yard IS the Sierra Nevada Mt range and home to the Nevada triangle. A real bad place to play if you are not familiar with it. I do fly and play here all the time....with sunshine.... I don't think I will be doing this flight again in the dark.
The reason for this post is, I had my beautiful daughter with me and I let my guard down to keep her safe. I should have never done this flight.
So why did I think it would be ok to do this flight? All of my earlier flying was in the LA basin, going to Big Bear and all over with lots of CITY LIGHTS, there is your night horizon.
So, has any one else got caught up in a situation you THOUGHT you were prepared for, but not? Funny thing is, you don't know, until after it happens. With this story I hope that my fortunate ignorance might help some one think before a night flight.:D
 
No question about it, vfr flight on a dark night can be 'flight by reference to instruments'. Some countries (Mexico) do not allow vfr at night. Years ago I was over west Texas in good vfr but a really dark night. ATC called traffic at 1 o'clock. I spotted his strobes, and while I stared at him(fixation-mistake!) he turned toward me! I figured a right turn was the best evasive maneuver. Fortunately, I went back on the gauges to make the turn - and was shocked to see that I was already in a 40 degree right bank! The traffic hadn't turned at all, it was me. I shuddered to think what might of happened if I had tried to turn right while still staring at the traffic.
 
Night flight??

I'm glad your flight ended safely. I must admit I know nothing about flying in the mountians in GA aircraft. I am courious if there were any hints about possible turbulence in your preflight weather checks? Also had this flight turned out to be perfectly smooth would you still question night flight? I do fly at night but only over flat terrain in very good weather with a lot of moonlight
 
I have a ton of hours bombing around flat Texas 20 years ago in all kinds of cheap spam cans after midnight long cross country, watching the strike finder. These days, for us, night flight (rare) IS defined for us as a default IFR flight, no matter what. Wisdom. We all acquire it in different ways.
 
I'm glad your flight ended safely. I must admit I know nothing about flying in the mountians in GA aircraft. I am courious if there were any hints about possible turbulence in your preflight weather checks? Also had this flight turned out to be perfectly smooth would you still question night flight? I do fly at night but only over flat terrain in very good weather with a lot of moonlight

I look at it like a River, water flowing over the rocks, water goes up and down. So there I was with the winds in the dark, going up and down with the drafts 400 to 900 FPM along for the ride hoping I had enough altitude above the peaks. Do you turn around? Do you hold out for another five min? I guarantee all have been in a similar point of what do I do now. For me at the time it was ok. But to go back in time I would have turned around. Isn't that weird how our minds think?
 
That would never happen to me because I HATE getting up early!! Sometimes it may be better to be lazy! Bret - it must have been tough mind games especially with your daughter with you. I don't envy those feelings at all. The positive things from it is you will probably think about it every time you start to make a choice about your flights. By telling us, you have allowed us to use your experience and learn. Thanks.

One of the deals I made with my wife when we discussed building and getting back into flying was no night flying, no bad weather, no buzzing anyone, and don't run out of gas. I know others may think the best flying is at night and I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with it. For me, I just don't have the experience or training to risk it. My son flys an Apache and almost all of his flights are at night below 500'. It scares me just to think of it.

Glad things worked out for you and you were able to keep your head and fly the plane. On another note - it must be getting cold at Pickle Meadows!
 
I will fly at night in a RV however I have a lot of conditions. If most are not in my favor I am not going. Weather, moon phase, terrain, passengers all factor in. My basic rule is flat terrain and enough moonlight to pick out a field. Others will have different minimums and that is fine because its a personal choice.
George
 
Remember that old joke about the CFI quizzing his student about engine failures at night? CFI -"What do you do if you have an engine failure at night and in your chosen landing zone you turn on the landing light and don't like what you see?" Student... "Ahhh... what?" CFI - "Turn the light off"

Bret we have never met but I am so, so happy you had a safe outcome to your flight and new found experience!! Fellow Sierra flyer here... I've come to deeply respect the area we live in as I know you have too.

Our mountain wave activity is something to really behold (and avoid unless you are a glider guy and I've flown the wave in sailplanes and it will certainly give anyone a new appreciation for the utter monster power of mother nature vs. aircraft).

Back in my emergency evac days in the area I had been caught in downdrafts and severe turbulence that exceeded the normal 4000FPM rate of climb I typically had available and it tore the cockpit doors off the tracks due to the severe shaking. Truckee, as you probably know, has hosted many severe windshear and rotor events that have caused Learjets, high performance other aircraft, etc to crash.

I like to keep my over flights of the area in single engine planes in daylight not only for see and avoid rotor clouds, lennticulars clouds, etc but also to know I have a visual fighting chance if I had to put the aircraft down due to severe downdrafts or engine failure. Remember recently the AA1 that was forced down onto Martis Peak? He walked away luckily, and put it down in the right area. Also the sight seeing 182 that had to put down (fortunately safely) near Spooner summit? Wow, at night... no way!

For me a little bit of pattern flying at night or sight seeing over town is fine for currency and variety but I am more chicken these days and only do that in really nice weather and not over the rocks, in a SEL, if I can avoid it. I've gone "rock hopping" in SEL's many times in the past, but these days I guess pick my night flying SEL routes pretty conservatively and go IFR (I follow roads, big, well lit, flat roads!)

PS - Salvi, you have good ideas about the moonlight, etc. Agree entirely!
 
Good outcome and thanks for sharing, Bret. Now we can all learn from your mistakes.

I'm with you on night disorientation. Turn East from Wendover for Provo on a clear night, and the Salt Flats make for zero horizon. Might as well be San Francisco fog, because nothing out the window is going to help you stay upright.

That's a mistake I'll never make again, because if the sun's down, so am I. With my limited experience and sporadic flying schedule, I need conservative minimums.

--
Stephen
 
Most of my 40 years of flying has been over the central United States - flat, low terrain with lots of lights. Night VFR in a single is just fine with me (assuing it is well maintained. Now here I am out in teh mountains of the west, and I am following the rue of learnign new lessons slowly and methodically. All of our airplanes have synthetic vision and full IFR capability, but I haven't yet had the need to launch into a dark sky.

One of our neighbors came in to Dayton tonight about an hour or two after sunset - very dark, no moon - and we have no lights on our runway. Even with the Synthetic Vision and FLIR, I don't think I'll have a "need" to try that anytime soon.

We all put our limit line in different places due to our life experiences. Flying over the high stuff in the dark is not somethign I will categorically cros off my list - but it isn't on there in ink just yet either.
 
One of the deals I made with my wife when we discussed building and getting back into flying was no night flying, no bad weather, no buzzing anyone, and don't run out of gas. I know others may think the best flying is at night and I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with it. For me, I just don't have the experience or training to risk it.

Rocky,

In our neck of the woods, I know very few pilots who will fly single engine night VFR or IFR, regardless of moonlight, cloud cover passengers, etc. Losing an engine over the Rockies is likely to ruin all of your remaining days.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
PD, unless they were NVG equipped and profficient in the application, whoever they are need a good slap in the ear! :mad:

That is how we get a bad reputation. But I know I am preaching to the converted with you.

There has been a couple of threads where I have voiced my opinion on IFR and what it constitutes by way of equipment and capability and the actual conditions. So here I go with my $0.20 worth. :)

Night VFR in my opinion is state of weather, not a set of rules to fly by. At night follow the principles of IFR flight with respect to LSALT and circling area's and do not assume anything. A recent (couple of years ago) Aerostar accident wiped out a family in Texas becuase it flew straight into a small mountain just out of Dallas or somewhere like that. The Grid MSA there was well above his altitude.

As for departures, out here where I do night departures, they are usually in a remote area and you only have to climb 50 feet and it is dark. Not dark like you guys think of dark, i mean DARK, like the inside of a cow....and a black cow at that!

You are on instruments from the moment the nose pitches up and the wheels leave the runway surface. It is actually harder than a takeoff at the S/E T/O minima. At least there you see for a few hundred feet.

So my advice albeit conservative is this. The few hours you get doing your Private Licence is not enough. It should not be legal to fly at night on that alone. It really should be enough to talk you out of it. If you want to fly at night do an instrument rating and keep current.

Sorry if that is at odds with others opinions, but that is how I see it.
 
Bret,

Completely empathize with how you felt after that flight. We've all had flights like that. Our own boot, kicking ourselves in the butt afterwards…repeatedly…hurts; but if the lesson sticks, its a good outcome.

An early, well known Flying 99 and college professor of mine told me that for her, night was IMC. I shrugged then (cocky kid, flying in flatter terrain than we have in Reno), but would now tend to agree with her…VMC at night is kinda-sorta-pseudo VMC, that can go do pot quickly, so a scan is really a critical tool at night. I've had lights provide optical illusions and vertigo, and vis go to nada…and its nada lada fun there! I recently flew up Long Island at night (at work), and as we headed NE out over the water, we talked about how the vis/horizon goes to nothing as you leave the lights of NYC behind, and we thought about the JFK JR crash. Scary and tragic.

I fly a lot of night ops at work, and do night visual approaches often. They are fun, but the gauges and HUD are there too. I flew air ambulance out of Denver in a past life. Two engines and excess power made the difference. In training for that job, when I asked about terrain avoidance during night descents into the small out-airports, the instructor said, "Stay over the lights, the lights are good…stay out of the dark, the dark is bad!". Not the most specific training advice I've ever had, but effective, I reckon. I did that…and instrument approaches in unfamiliar and dark, hostile terrain are also your friends.

I cross the rocks in my RV a lot (daytime), but have "minimum exposure" routes I prefer (min exposure to "nowhere to land" is what I refer to). I rarely fly at night here in Reno in my RV, even with the 396 terrain warning I have on board. Biggest reason for me is the engine-out scenario. I don't want to have to turn that landing light back off! Paul's SV and FLIR would be awesome tools, and would mitigate some of the risk over moderate terrain, where you might make it to a safe landing site. But over the big rocks, the big three single-engine no-go's for me are weather, wind, and darkness.

You're not the first to learn this lesson! AMHIK! ;)

Cheers,
Bob

PS: Dern, David…the inside of a black cow must be DARK! :D But I bet the outback is as dark as out at the ship at night! Squids know about that color of dark too! ;)
 
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That morning, wind calm, half moon, 15 Kts at destination, 20 deg F. No problem right? One thing I did not know, pine trees eat light! No moon reflection at all. So , as mentioned before, once the city lights were gone, it was just like IMC. I have 30 hrs of Instrument rating training with a few ILS IMC landings under my belt from a long time ago witch probably made me just cocky enough to continue on but after the fact, it was the wrong decision to continue on. Should have returned, eat breakfast and watch the sun rise.
I know there are a lot of professionals reading this thinking to their selfs, what a rookie. They are right! I am, but I hope that the one person I can reach out to and make them say WoW! I did not know it would be like that! I made my point. Now then, I need to finish getting my IR! :cool:
 
My son flys an Apache and almost all of his flights are at night below 500'. It scares me just to think of it.

I can tell you that is apples and oranges. Once you get few hundred hours of night vision system time, it's like flying at high noon - only have to get used to weight, limited field of view, scanning techniques, etc. Also, you have a much different perspective when you can slow to 25 knots - if not to a complete hover depending on weight, temp, etc. (this gets guys in trouble as well, however). When I did my SEL add ons, I was amazed that a civilian trained PP could get a ticket with, I believe 3 hours simulated time, and fly at night without restriction. I had a similar experience once departing at night. On climb out, once past the airport environment (lights), there was NO ambient light - nothing but panel light reflected in the windscreen:eek: I transitioned just as I would on an IFR departure inside on the instruments. I can't imagine doing this as a fairly new PP with no true IMC time. I agree wholeheartedly with whomever said night VFR is IMC. I will fly at night and enjoy it. I also live 46' above sea level and will ALWAYS follow an instrument approach to even a slightly unfamiliar field at night.
 
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When I was a flight instructor I flew at night all the time. Of course, I was younger and dumber back then.

But now I will never ever fly a single engine airplane at night. It's not because of IFR-I'm current and kinda experienced-I only have 11,000 hours.

But my concern is engine failure. Yes there are some nights that the moon may be bright enough to illuminate the ground enough to see where I'm going to put it down if the engine fails, but that's rare.

In my opinion, a person who flies a single engine airplane at night is literally betting their life that the engine will not fail, the gas is good, and the airplane will experience no other emergencies.

Even over flat terrain I would not fly at night. During the day an engine failure may not be a big issue since I would be able to see the terrain, roads, and maybe even glimpse power lines. But at night? How well can you see the ground to know exactly when to flare?

That's just my thoughts, and I don't expect others to be as paranoid of an engine failure as I am. Failures can happen to any one and any airplane-no matter how well maintained it is. I've never had an engine failure, but I know others who have.
 
Depends

Someone on here posted some advice a while back...something to this effect:

There are four primary risks in our type of flight: single engine, night, weather, terrain. You can handle any two reasonably safely.

So, since most RVs are single engine, we should only consider flying at night, in weather OR over terrain. This theory makes good sense to me. It's that third risk factor that can easily cause a loss-of-engine situation to become unsurvivable. Of course, risk tolerance varies dramatically for good reasons as we have heard.

So, living in (actually on) the mountains as I do (and flying in the mountains A LOT), I do not fly at night...with the exceptioins that I will do training flights for night currency (usually in/near the pattern) and will occasionally make flights in the valleys that I know very well and have multiple airports and lighted highways in the event I need one - only in clear weather. Contributing to this decision is my being instrument rated and current, having a solid IFR panel, autopilot, synthetic vision (slight SA advantage only), and knowing the area I'm flying over. I only fly over lights. So, basically, when I do fly at night, it's in good weather only, and I steer clear of terrain (flying over lights is a good tip).

I do agree that night flight is often very close to IFR conditions and would urge caution for anyone not instrument rated.

My $0.02
 
I do agree that night flight is often very close to IFR conditions and would urge caution for anyone not instrument rated.

I'd urge everyone to put on a hood next time they (and a pilot buddy) go for a $100 hamburger. It's not some some special skill reserved for those with an instrument rating. We were expected to master basic attitude instrument control as primary students.

Avoiding known low-vis conditions is fine, but sooner or later even the most careful pilot inadvertently loses their horizon reference. It doesn't have to be nighttime. If going to the panel isn't natural and comfortable, get some practice.
 
Amen

I'd urge everyone to put on a hood next time they (and a pilot buddy) go for a $100 hamburger. It's not some some special skill reserved for those with an instrument rating. We were expected to master basic attitude instrument control as primary students.

Avoiding known low-vis conditions is fine, but sooner or later even the most careful pilot inadvertently loses their horizon reference. It doesn't have to be nighttime. If going to the panel isn't natural and comfortable, get some practice.

Great advice.
 
I would also add to this great advice, that once you’re comfortable under the hood find someone that is willing to fly at night :) , and get some night hood time. Hood is good for very basic training, but IMO there isn’t a hood or a set of foggles made that doesn’t allow enough external cues to ground a raging vestibular system. It isn’t always the horizon; sometimes just a glimpse of the outside – a quick glance under the hood to the ground below straightens you out. Much more likely at night to get into the condition where you would bet your first born that the AI is lying to you.
 
I agree. There's also some human psychology at work. Knowing, deep in your heart, that if you look up from the hood everything will be okay, versus knowing that looking up won't help at all, cause people to react differently.
 
In this part of the world one of the real risk factors is the "black hole" departure wherein one departs, as noted by an earlier poster, with no ground lights to provide any semblance of a horizon reference. All too often because of some simple human physiology factors, black hole departures turn into smoking holes in the ground as the pilot fails to command a climb.

To combat this insidious killer I've adopted a take-off ritual which I've found helps. At the point of rotation, go through the following mantra:

"POWER" - is the engine making full power? If not, ABORT while over the runway.

"POSITIVE PITCH" - verify the attitude indicator shows the aircraft to be pitched up not just above the horizon but also above the level which might result from having failed to adjust the AI's pitch lubber line prior to takeoff. Positive pitch means a pitch angle which will result in attaining the desired climb airspeed. Cross-check against the ASI - you don't have to be exactly on speed just yet, but close.

"POSITIVE RATE" - cross-check the VSI to ensure a positive rate of climb is achieved. Know what rate of climb should be expected for current gross weight and density altitude conditions. If you're very far off expected climb rate, go back to checking POWER and preparing to abort the flight if the aircraft is not performing as it should.

So far this little talk I have with myself on every night takeoff (and several times until cruise altitude is attained) has managed to keep me out of the weeds. Hope it might help others attain a similar goal.
 
On my little private strip in the middle of nowhere (unlighted) a night departure is treated as IFR regardless of the weather. I've got almost exactly zero visual cues on the horizon below 400-500 AGL, and as soon as you rotate and get the landing lights up off the runway, you are going to have to be hard on the gauges. It's a bit disconcerting if you aren't ready for it.

There's a lit runway for night landings just a couple miles away, but it's not "home".
 
Personal Night Minimums ? another perspective?

FWIW I thought I would chime in with some of my own night flying “wisdom” from 33 + years of GA flying experience. I flew Search and Rescue missions for the CAP for 26 years here in Colorado. Some of those were conducted at night, and I can recall a couple of missions that were even conducted in IFR conditions at night (electronic ELT searches).

I felt fortunate that nationally CAP had already developed some rules regarding flight over mountainous terrain as well as for IFR operations, so we were immediately bound by those rules before we could even consider attempting a flight in those conditions. Some of them were:

1. Night flying over “mountainous” terrain: prohibited. This means that night flying over “non-mountainous” terrain was authorized. Colorado had a specific definition for mountainous terrain, and this was basically any terrain that was over 8,000 ft MSL.
2. No actual IMC IFR flights over mountainous terrain
3. No operations in mountainous terrain with actual or forecast mountain obscuration.
4. No operations in mountainous terrain if actual or forecast winds or gusts were 30 knots or greater.

CAP would basically not operate in mountainous terrain except in day VFR conditions where we could maintain positive contact with the ground as well as the surrounding terrain. I have continued to perform my go-no go assessment for operating single engine GA aircraft at night or in the mountains by using these same basic rules in my flight planning. All that said, I love to fly at night, but it does add some risk that needs to be carefully evaluated as many others have already pointed out.

Some other problems with operating in mountainous terrain at night are the lack of current accurate weather reports or pilot reports. PIREPS are both highly encouraged and heavily relied upon in the CAP. After reviewing your story, I would agree with your assessment that you probably should have turned around and watched the sunrise, as I have done many times myself, including one episode where I was briefly turned upside down after hitting a wall of turbulence at 10,000 feet over the foothills of the Rocky Mountains while enroute to a mountainous area to search for a missing aircraft. Some days you just have to say “not today,” especially when the mountains and the darkness are involved.

I just wanted to provide another perspective based on the perspective of an old-but-not-so-bold search and rescue pilot operating single engine aircraft in mountainous terrain. Getting additional training at night, hood or no hood, is always a good thing. Understanding the conditions where a loss of horizon may exist is also important. Operating a single engine airplane at night in the mountains with no viable horizon, AND 400-900 up and down drafts on a consistent basis – definitely meets my criteria for an RTB (Return to Base).
 
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