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First Engine Start a No Go - Got Brrrrrrrr

ChuckC

Active Member
Filled engine with coolant. Filled engine with oil; pressurized and got 30psi when spinning prop. Filled gas tank with two gallons. Got fuel pressure. Turned on master, throttle full idle, choke on, Skyview on showing oil and fuel pressure, both ignitions on, turned starter key and got Brrrrrrrr sound. Engine did not turn over or start. Checked fuses and none were blown. Battery at 12.5v. Tried to start engine again with no choke and full idle; still got Brrrrrrrr sound with no prop turn or engine start. Any suggestions on what to look for to get the engine to start?
 
Please explain your - -

Brrrrrr sound. Sound like a starter motor turning, or are you describing something else ?
 
If it is a new engine, I would start with a call to a warranty service center (Lockwood, etc.)

The sound you are describing is the same as that made by a bad starter motor sprag clutch. Highly unlikely on a new engine I would think.
 
Your description sounds like - -

a solenoid chattering. Make sure your battery connections are all very solid. Put a volt meter on the starter lead and see what the voltage is during the clattering sound.
 
It still could be a poor battery or its connection. It could also be wired wrong somewhere.
It could possibly be the starter solenoid.
 
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Battery?

Are you sure that your battery is fully charged? Could be as simple as using a fully charged battery. But, maybe, your brrrrr is different than my brrrrr!

I suggest that you don't do anything major first - take a second look at all wire connections, etc, before beginning to remove parts. Best to you.
 
Yes, the battery is fully charged showing 12.5 on charger and Skyview. Did check all the wiring connections - visually and tugging, and, they all appeared solid.
 
which brrrrr

Brrrrrr like cold? Or Brrrrrrr like rattle? Record yourself immitating the noise and post it here.......note: not really interested in hearing the actual noise.
 
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Chuck,

You could disconnect the motor lead and engage the start key. See if you hear the starter solenoid close and see if it sounds like the chatter you are hearing. Also do a load check on your battery. A bad battery can show good no-load voltage, but drop drastically when under load. Harbor Freight sells a cheap battery load tester.

Rich
 
I did have a problem with the spar pins; but, I got that resolved and the big red light on the panel is out. Only took me a full day to turn the light out.

The Brrrrr sound is real loud. To me, sitting in the cockpit, it sounds like something is battering the firewall really rapidly - fifty times faster than you could do with a hammer. I have the skin above the avionics off, so maybe the noise is being amplified. It does sound, to me, like a rivet gun. Only, Rosie the Riveter is not out there.
 
Chuck, ........... Also do a load check on your battery. A bad battery can show good no-load voltage, but drop drastically when under load. Harbor Freight sells a cheap battery load tester. Rich

+1 Definitely do a Load Check on the battery
 
I had exactly the same problem

It was the battery. Mine showed 12volts as well. It needs more to turn over the engine. I charged mine over night and the next day the engine burst into life. I think the battery was showing 13 or so volts.

Cheers

Jim
 
starter

you could try a set of jumper leads to another battery or pull one plug out of each cylinder and see if the starter turns it over properly then
 
13 volts is fully charged, not 12.5 volts. I agree with the others that the solenoid (aka contactor) is chattering. The cause could be a bad electrical connection or a weak battery or a bad starter motor. This is what causes the chattering: the voltage is high enough to energize the contactor, but the heavy load of the starter causes the voltage to drop so much that the contactor opens up and you hear a click. Now that the contactor is open and no heavy current is flowing, the voltage goes back up and the contactor energizes again and you hear another click. This sequence is repeated over and over several times per second and you hear the buzzing or chattering.
Joe Gores
 
Yes, the battery is fully charged showing 12.5 on charger and Skyview. Did check all the wiring connections - visually and tugging, and, they all appeared solid.

With most advice pointing to the battery or connections, you should test before you replace. Looking at the connections and tugging on them is not the same thing (though it is true that tugging can sometimes complete a poor connection, temporarily). Get out the multimeter. Test resistance through the connections and voltage at each point.

I don't know the -12 electrical system, but in most aircraft I would check that the ground is good at all points, that there aren't any connections with a high resistance, that resistance through the solenoid is high until engaged, and that the activation lead is seeing system voltage (to see voltage at any point, put a probe on the connection and the other probe to ground). I've seen bad solenoids but I've also seen bad grounds or switches fail to provide enough power to activate the solenoid, which results in the intermittent "machine gun" chatter that you describe. Likewise, not enough power to the starter can also cause an intermittent sound but I don't think it would sound like it was on the firewall. You'd also probably see the prop move slightly each time you activated the starter.
 
Brrrrrrrrr=Solenoid

Your battery is not fully charged or you have a poor connection. The "Brrrrrrrrr" sound is the starter solenoid contacting and releasing rapidly. I would suggest charging the battery first and then try again. Remember the KISS principal. I live by this and most of the time it keeps me out of trouble. :D
 
I'm no expert, but:

I am voting that the battery (despite showing 12-volts) still doesn't have enough charge. As a result, the solenoid is chattering.
 
Are you sure that your battery is fully charged? Could be as simple as using a fully charged battery.

This.

To me, sitting in the cockpit, it sounds like something is battering the firewall really rapidly - fifty times faster than you could do with a hammer.

Starter solenoid.

They chatter due to either low battery voltage, or bad connections not letting full battery voltage through.

but is the engine grounded?

And this. Bad grounds are the overall biggest cause of electrical gremlins I have ever seen in half a century of wrenching of cars, boats, and planes.
 
Starter drive. Check negative battery connections. Use internal/external star washers between battery terminal and cable (yes, between terminal & cable!) to achieve good electrical contact. Also, starwasher between battery negative cable and grounding point on engine.
 
Checked the battery under load and got a reading in the green.

Disconnected the cable from the starter relay to the starter. Put a multimeter on the starter relay and grounded the multimeter to the black terminal on the battery. Turned on master, ignitions, and turned starter key; got zippo voltage. Does this mean the starter relay is bad?
 
Did you - -

check the voltage at the battery before turning on anything, then as you turn things on ? Any serious change ? When you turn to start, does the voltage go down much ? Using a digital volt meter ? What are the reading doing all the above ?
 
Auxillary Fuel Pump?

Could that be a dry auxillary fuel pump turning on? I accidently turned on the auxillary fuel pump with no fuel in the line when I was building my 6A. It made a loud "Brrrr" sound.

John
 
Disconnected the cable from the starter relay to the starter. Put a multimeter on the starter relay and grounded the multimeter to the black terminal on the battery. Turned on master, ignitions, and turned starter key; got zippo voltage. Does this mean the starter relay is bad?
It is starting to look that way. Repeat that test, but measure the voltage on all three terminals of the starter contactor. There should be 12 volts on all three when the start key is turned.
Joe Gores
 
Charged the battery for four hours today. Battery charger showed 13.5v. As I powered up, the Skyview showed the voltage never going below 12.5v.

Tried to start twice. Both times, silence. Fuel pump was running. But, no click or Brrrrr coming from the firewall area. Put the Multimeter on the Master Relay and got 12.5v coming out of it. Put the Multimeter on the Starter Relay and got 0.00v coming out of it. Rechecked all grounds and wiring connections and could find nothing that wasn't solid. Just ordered a new Starter Relay

Really appreciate all the ideas and thoughts. Will let you know whether or not the new Starter Relay fixes the problem.
 
This is not the first defective relay right out of the box. Skunkworks had the same situation if I am not mistaken.
 
Maybe not a good idea, but in my teen age shade tree mechanic days I can remember testing starter relays by shorting the terminals with a screw driver to bump the starter motor. Make sure the ignitions are off if you decide to try.

Rich
 
Maybe not a good idea, but in my teen age shade tree mechanic days I can remember testing starter relays by shorting the terminals with a screw driver to bump the starter motor. Make sure the ignitions are off if you decide to try.

Rich

On my "49" ford...many times. But not my -12!
 
Maybe not a good idea, but in my teen age shade tree mechanic days I can remember testing starter relays by shorting the terminals with a screw driver to bump the starter motor. Make sure the ignitions are off if you decide to try.

Rich

On my "49" ford....many times! But on my -12...naw. Echo..echo?
 
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My first car was a red '49 Ford Pickup - straight six. Sit on the fender, dangle the feet inside the engine compartment. Air conditioning was the window handle crank. Not very fancy, but it went. .
 
Put in a new Starter Relay and tried to start the engine today. Engine did not turn over and there was no sound like a rivet gun. Just heard a fsssst sound. Got a buddy to come over and look. After about a half hour he found a black spot on the Battery Power Wire. Upon closer inspection we found the Battery Power Wire, WH-P150, and Starter Power Cable, WH-P155, had shorted out and welded together.

vovfy8.jpg
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Couple of questions. Why won't the engine start? And, why did these two cables short out and weld together?

The Builder's Plans page is 45A-08.
 
Hmmmmmmm - -

I'd look very closely at the main wire installation. Would seem you have a direct short. I'd study the heavy wires for correct connection points.
 
Better load check your battery-----------the shorted cables are evidence of possible damage to the battery due to the high current from a direct short.
 
Put in a new Starter Relay and tried to start the engine today. Engine did not turn over and there was no sound like a rivet gun. Just heard a fsssst sound. Got a buddy to come over and look. After about a half hour he found a black spot on the Battery Power Wire. Upon closer inspection we found the Battery Power Wire, WH-P150, and Starter Power Cable, WH-P155, had shorted out and welded together.

vovfy8.jpg
[/IMG]

Couple of questions. Why won't the engine start? And, why did these two cables short out and weld together?

The Builder's Plans page is 45A-08.

The only thing that likely would cause that damage to the wires is if they got hot enough to soften the insulation (because of a high current draw resulting from a short circuit) and then contact pressure because of the way they were routed/positioned caused them to stick together.

May seem like a silly question but do you know for sure that the starter power wire going to the starter motor is attached in the correct location?

It should attach to the power stud that requires just a nut and washer.
The starter ground cable attaches to metal lug at the back of the starter with a bolt and nut.
 
Good suggestions.

Yes, we did check the wiring and my buddy thought that it was all correct. You are correct that the wires appear that they may have gotten very hot and the plastic on the wiring was beginning to melt. Where the wires actually welded together, they may have been previously touching because of their location. I'll get out to the hangar and recheck the wiring attachments again tomorrow.

We had the same idea that we may have blown up the battery. We put a load check on it and it does seem to be in good shape.
 
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