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Aileron rolls ?

Tankerpilot75

Well Known Member
As an “old“ military pilot I thought I knew a few things about gentle aerobatics. Unfortunately I’ve either totally lost those skills or I’m not doing something right (I suspect the later).

Here’s the situation: I entered the aileron roll at 125kts and 20 degrees nose high. Full left aileron deflection and the roll began as expected. After a full 360 degree rotation I found myself approximately 50 degrees nose down and doing a “nose low” unusual attitude recovery (felt like the bottom half of a low g loop) - not what I expected. Roll rate did seem a little slow. No rudder input was used for the roll since it was an “aileron roll!” Second and third attempts - same results.

I’m thinking maybe a little rudder is required to speed up the roll rate. Am I correct? Obviously, the slower the roll rate the lower the nose is at a return to wings level. Suggestions from those with better RV flying skills?

The T38 would do two full deflection 360 degree aileron rolls in about one second (could give you a real headache if the other pilot caught you off guard). The T37 was slower. However neither aircraft required rudder input for the aileron roll. It’s only been 45 years since I flew those aircraft but the memories are precious!
 
My guess is that you are not fully releasing back pressure on the stick when you are rolling.

Pull up to 20 degrees, then STOP pulling up by releasing all back pressure on the stick. Pause for a split second to make sure all back pressure has been released, THEN do the roll.

If you are pulling back on the stick, the nose will drop as you describe.

You should end the roll at about 10 degrees nose low with the above procedure.
 
I like 140 KIAS, nose up for a potato, unload, deflect aileron, use rudder to help nose through the roll depending on magnitude of aileron deflection. Unload after nose up is key, as Pete said.
 
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.... I entered the aileron roll at 125kts and 20 degrees nose high. Full left aileron deflection and the roll began as expected. After a full 360 degree rotation I found myself approximately 50 degrees nose down and doing a ?nose low? unusual attitude recovery (felt like the bottom half of a low g loop) - not what I expected. Roll rate did seem a little slow. No rudder input was used for the roll since it was an ?aileron roll!? Second and third attempts - same results......

Try 145-150 KIAS with nose well above the horizon. That's plenty of smash.... I do all of my "gentlemanly" aerobatics at this speed with power set at 24/2400 for loops/cuban 8/rolls/cloverleafs etc... with about a 3.5 g entry pull. At that power setting I can do over the tops all day long without losing entry altitude.

Depends on your engine/prop, of course.
 
I too am thinking you have some pull on the stick. And the speed sounds low. After pitching to 20-30 nose up by positively neutralizing and keeping the pitch at or forward of that point during the maneuver will yield much better results.
 
Rolls

I would normally respond by telling the OP to get some aerobatic instruction.
When I was instructing in the Pitts I would introduce a trainee to aerobatics with aileron rolls. I would not demonstrate the maneuver but would lead up to the first attempt as follows: Roll the airplane from 30 degree left bank to 30 degrees right bank with a touch of coordinated rudder. Gradually increase bank angle to 60 degrees. Then a 30 degree climb angle, hands momentarily off the stick at 30 degrees. When comfortable with this pull up to 30 degrees, hand off the stick, a touch of left rudder and push the stick to the left with finger pressure applied to right side of stick.
In two years of doing this I never had to take control and while the results were not always pretty they were always successful.
 
Here?s how I did my first few rolls, trying to do as Van advised in an early version of the RVator.....

At 140-150 KIAS level flight, maintaining your power setting throughout, pull the nose up to 30* nose up. Let go of the back pressure for a couple seconds, wings level (the nose will stay there, briefly), then just push the stick to the left (or right) with your feet flat on the floor. Don?t push or pull on the stick, don?t use your rudder, just apply aileron movement. Watch the world go around, and when you come out at the end of it, you should be about where you were when you started. Your nose will be pitched down maybe 15*, but your airspeed won?t be excessive, and you can recover to level flight without much G force. You might notice a little wallowing on the top because your airspeed is decaying, and you aren?t using your feet, but there is very little adverse aileron yaw in these airplanes, so until you get comfortable, don?t worry about using rudder input. A little later, rudder input will make the roll a little quicker and crisper, but it is just as fun to do it the way I suggested.
 
I agree with the comment about it being likely that you were holding some aft stick during the roll, which caused you to "dish" out low. 20 degrees nose high at 125KT in an RV-7 is just fine if you return the stick to the 1G position before rolling (and keep it there), and use full aileron, rudder or no rudder. RVs have differential ailerons which vastly reduce (but don't entirely eliminate) adverse yaw. Rudder use will not greatly affect what happened here.

Regarding the urban legend of the 720 deg/sec T-38 roll rate, I have it on good authority that it's pure BS trolling by those who wrote the flight manual. Somehow the A-4 has the exact same max roll rate. ;) There's zero evidence of the existence of this roll rate. TWO hundred and seventy deg/sec is more likely the reality, which would FEEL like 720 to those who'd never experienced anything more than the lethargic roll rate of the T-37. ;) To put this in context, RVs generally roll <110 deg/sec at VA.
 
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Here's a great video from my friend Gordon Penner. Lot's of great tips!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJaqWYYeRw

That is a great video.

Sounds like Jim is attempting the Hoover Roll, as labeled by Mr. Penner. Bob Hoover was my hero. When he passed on, I got thinking it would be fun to do a short video tribute. I think he would have been amused.

So anyway, Jim, watch the stick hand starting at 20 seconds. As previously noted, the key is no pitch pressure during the roll. See how I open my hand to ensure I apply roll pressure only? You don't really need to open your hand, but I was concentrating in order to do two things at once.

https://vimeo.com/189574781
 
Do what he says..... !

Minus the Bourbon :D

Dan - please get a haircut :rolleyes:

RV aeros can be quite a lot different to aeros in other aeroplanes - they are not competition machines, although some do compete. As Vans has said a time or two, they do greeeeat Sunday afternoon aerobatics that please the occupants !

Most guys I do aeros with do everything too fast and too harsh. Watch Dan and it shows how a smooth, patient and slow approach rewards with a pleasing result.

I can do a looping and rolling set in under 3g - wouldn't look good from outside, but I am sat inside. Likewise, if I have to do a bit for a friend, over his house, then I need to stay on station and pay attention and it gets a bit more g loading.

My 2 cents for the roll is along the lines described by Eric Muller. Progressively increase the aileron input as you apply it - slow to start, then increase to full deflection but finish more crisply when energy is lower. It "puntuates" the manoeuvre. In an RV, if you put aileron in quickly, you just get aileron bump as it basically tells you to stop being rough !
Eric talks about punctuation a lot, it defines the start and finish of a lot of figures and makes them better to do, easier to fly and better looking.

Find someone who knows RV aeros and who can coach and learn that way.
 
RV aeros can be quite a lot different to aeros in other aeroplanes - they are not competition machines, although some do compete. As Vans has said a time or two, they do greeeeat Sunday afternoon aerobatics that please the occupants!

Why do so many RVers still feel compelled to say they are not "competition" machines? There has never been, nor does there seem to be a new trend of folks confusing them with a +/-10G Extra 330SC. Pitts' and Decathlons were not designed for "competition" either, but nobody says to pilots of these aircraft that they're not competition machines, although some do compete. ;)

IMO RV acro is really NOT very special or different, at least once you're past the point of being a total rank beginner who's not yet obtained good training and obtained some basic familiarity with RVs.
 
Great video!

...Sounds like Jim is attempting the Hoover Roll, as labeled by Mr. Penner. Bob Hoover was my hero. When he passed on, I got thinking it would be fun to do a short video tribute. I think he would have been amused. ...
https://vimeo.com/189574781
That was the perfect tribute to Bob Hoover. I shook his hand once at Oshkosh I'm sure I've been a much better pilot ever since!
 
Get An Instructor

Here's a great video from my friend Gordon Penner. Lot's of great tips!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJaqWYYeRw

For the love of God, get with an aerobatic flight instructor and stop experimenting with aerobatics on your own. If you?re dishing out of a simple aileron roll and don?t know why, you are well below the level of competence needed to troubleshoot this on your own. Please, please don?t try to troubleshoot aerobatic problems over the internet. You need to speak with the instructor and then fly with that person.
 
Why do so many RVers still feel compelled to say they are not "competition" machines? There has never been, nor does there seem to be a new trend of folks confusing them with a +/-10G Extra 330SC. Pitts' and Decathlons were not designed for "competition" either, but nobody says to pilots of these aircraft that they're not competition machines, although some do compete. ;)

IMO RV acro is really NOT very special or different, at least once you're past the point of being a total rank beginner who's not yet obtained good training and obtained some basic familiarity with RVs.



Having been acquainted with an International Aerobatic Judge in the USA for many years before he passed, it was interesting to hear his opinion. He saw many aeroplanes used for both displays and competitions. Some suited one discipline, some suited the other.

My statement referred to people who have built and flown RV's, read the many articles from the designers and taken it on board.

You can compete in an RV.

It was not designed as such !


A Pitts, a Decathlon, an Extra, or a Giles, or a One Design, or an MX are designed primarily for aerobatics - and competition.

The ACA aeroplanes are the quintessential compromise crossover aeroplanes and they should be applauded. A day to day hack, a cross country cruiser, a backwoods skirmisher, yet a competent competitor when needed in the higher powered versions.

RV's are best described as Hedley Lamarr said in Blazing Saddles....

Now go do that voodoo that you do so weeeeellllll !!!


;)
 
A Pitts, a Decathlon, an Extra, or a Giles, or a One Design, or an MX are designed primarily for aerobatics - and competition.

Curtis Pitts designed the S-1 in the mid 40's because he just wanted an airplane that handled and rolled better than the Wacos of the day. Competition acro didn't exist back then. The Decathlon is a direct descendent of the Champ, and RVs have more aerobatic capability than the Decathlon. About the only airplane specifically designed for competition acro is the One Design, but the "one design" competition concept failed for a number of reasons. RVs ARE designed to do aerobatics.

The competition structure allows a wide variety of aircraft to do well. I've seen Clipped Cubs, Swick T's, Sonex, RVs, Stearmans, Acro Sports, P-51, T-28, CJ-6, Rans S-9, Citabrias, Chipmunks, Jungmanns, Great Lakes', EAA Bipes, and others I'm sure I'm fogetting, all compete and do quite well. None were "designed" for competition acro and nobody needs to keep reminding these pilots that they are not designed to win a World Aerobatic Championship. :) RVs are NOT special here, they are just another type that fits in just fine.
 
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Pitts

Bob Herendeen competed in 1966 World Aerobatic Contest in Moscow in Pitts S1C(flat wing two aileron). Charlie Hilliard became Mens World Champion in 1972 and Mary Gaffney became Womens
World Champion. US team won first place. All in Pitts's.
 
Acro

Good to remember that the fatal inflight breakup of RV7 in Atlantic City area was the result of a pilot attempting to learn acro by "reading the book".
 
Thanks for the responses

Thanks to those who provided positive, useful feedback. And to those few who were less than positive - well your feedback had a few good points too! I agree aerobatic instruction is required if you?ve never done it before and frankly has it?s purpose when you?re wanting to polish up your skill set.

However in my case an aerobatic instructor at this point is not required nor desired. Polishing off rust requires thoughtful practice, a little mental thought and analysis, along with useful insights from those more current and experienced in the RV than myself.

I really appreciate Ron and Dan?s videos. Ron?s was a good reminder of the ?sacred circle? for coordinating the roll movement and Dan?s was inspirational for goal setting. In the T38 rudder was not used a lot in aerobatics but was extremely necessary in getting your nose down in the turn to final. I flew the T38 both in pilot training and an additional 200 hours post training. It?s a great little aircraft - better than any fair ride imaginable.

I?ve had my RV7A five years and have used it to blow off a lot of rust and return to the true joy of flying. My gentleman aerobatics are a continuation of that joyful return. I don?t plan on ever being a great aerobatic pilot (I?m way too old for that goal) but I will always strive to be a safe, thoughtful and conservative pilot. A little aerobatic practice just refines stick and rudder skills and improves one?s aeronautical knowledge - at any age.
 
That is a great video.

Sounds like Jim is attempting the Hoover Roll, as labeled by Mr. Penner. Bob Hoover was my hero. When he passed on, I got thinking it would be fun to do a short video tribute. I think he would have been amused.

So anyway, Jim, watch the stick hand starting at 20 seconds. As previously noted, the key is no pitch pressure during the roll. See how I open my hand to ensure I apply roll pressure only? You don't really need to open your hand, but I was concentrating in order to do two things at once.

https://vimeo.com/189574781

Hey Dan! Great video. I'm not much of a drinker so I'll stick with milk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieJPoRPi7F8
 
Only tour bus drivers must look good to fly ;)

Me? I'm too old to give a ****.

The Missus bought a battery clipper for the dog in the hot weather. She said let me have a try first.....

I am now recovering from Marine length hair :rolleyes:

I said - what guard did you put on it....?

Ahhh, was the reply, sorry :eek:
 
My two cent advice .... is to relax your grip on the stick. You will feel the airplane much better.

Pick a straight line feature ( Railway lines are good ) Practice at 130 kts
Pull to about 25 to 30 degrees and check ( stop pulling )
gently push the stick over whilst making sure you don;'t pull or push on the stick ( again using light pressure )

All it takes is regular practice. I taught my son' hes better than me now ! :confused:

A word of warning:- do not stop rolling! If you only have limited aero experience you can end up in a nose down vne+ spiral dive.
 
Success!

It was a back pressure problem. Even though I thought I was releasing back pressure before beginning the role I confirmed I wasn?t. I did several aileron roles yesterday and they were much better. Definitely not T-38 roles but they were recognizable as aileron roles. I?m going to miss my aileron dives because they are much more exciting!

Oh well, if I ever have to dive bomb a ship I ar least have the technique down.
 
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