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“A” model resale

A64Pilot

Member
First let me say Merry Christmas to everyone.
I’m a new guy looking at an RV to purchase.
My personal, preference is conventional gear, well because a nose wheel is unconventional, and I have way more tailwheel time than tricycle gear. however at looking at used RV’s for sale it seems there are more nose draggers for sale than tail wheels.
So I got to looking, even though I prefer the little wheel behind me, there is nothing wrong with it up front and honestly when it’s a gusty crosswind, I’m not so stressed on short final is a tricycle airplane. So for the right price, and the right airplane, I can overlook where the steering wheel is.

But as I am beginning my learning process in educating myself about the RV world, it seems that there have been a large number of nose gear collapses, and when they do collapse it seems they almost always go over on their back, with serious consequences.

So I’m not at all wanting to start an argument about something that has likely has been beaten to death already, before my time.

But has this seemingly high incidence of accidents affected resale? Is this why so many nose draggers seem to be for sale?
Have the nose gear always been collapsing, is this a recent phenomena?

What is the ratio of “A” models to straight aircraft? Are there more “A’s” than tail draggers?

Now to be blunt,I think Icsn be safe with one, I have quite a few hours in a C-210 and lots of grass strips. and just got used to always landing nose high on the mains and letting the nose down gently on roll out.

But I don’t want to buy a aircraft that may lose a lot of value and or
 
I would guess there are just more A models than not which is why they are more represented in for sale ads.

I doubt an A model depreciates any faster than a conventional gear model. IF there was a discount to be put on an A model (which I don't think there is), it would be accounted for in the sale price. There are far greater aspects that drive price than landing gear configuration.
 
Have the nose gear always been collapsing, is this a recent phenomena?
or
When I decided taildragger in 2005 part of the reason was, in fact, that there just happened to be a lot of nosewheel flips in the news that year.

However, since then, a very sustained effort directed toward encouraging transition training plus a few aftermarket nose gear mods (and factory nose gear redesigns for some of the later models) have seen these mishaps come down in frequency it seems.

Although I’m very glad I decided to go tailwheel (for a whole bunch of reasons), I don’t think you’d go wrong with a nosewheel, nor will demand likely go down since there are so many more pilots who only know nosewheel aircraft.

Good luck.
 
I know us tailwheel types are a rare breed, but it seems the better deals are of nose wheels, they don’t seem to bring as high a price, and I expected the opposite of course, as most don’t have tailwheel experience.
Now realize I’ve only been looking for a month or so, so it could well be just this months offerings are not usual, you can’t necessarily determine something with just one or a few data samples.
 
So for the right price, and the right airplane, I can overlook where the steering wheel is.

But as I am beginning my learning process in educating myself about the RV world, it seems that there have been a large number of nose gear collapses, and when they do collapse it seems they almost always go over on their back, with serious consequences.

Please to explain "steering wheel." Are you not aware that all RVs use differential breaking for ground steering?

Your assertion on flip over is equally accurate, meaning, not at all.
 
Are you not aware that all RVs use differential breaking [sic] for ground steering?

Well, I'm not aware of that. My RV-4 and RV-8 had steerable tailwheels, so brakes were not needed for normal steering. Sharp turns, yes, and taxiiing in strong crosswinds, yes, but not for normal steering.

On my RV-8A and RV-9A, with any amount of airflow over the rudder, brakes are not needed for normal steering. Sharp turns, yes, and taxiiing in crosswinds, yes, but not for normal steering.

Granted, almost all of my RV flying has been on pavement. Don't know what difference grass would make, if any.
 
why I went nose dragger

I've owned two tail wheel planes over the past 30 years, a Bellanca Cruisair purchased in 1991 and still have; and a J-3 Cub from 2014 to 2017. With about 60% of my total time in tail-wheels.

I do like the looks of an -14 both on the ground and in the air more than the -14A, I like how tail wheel piston airplanes look.

Counterpoint > the -14A has a good bit more forward visibility while taxiing, not worried about the -14A nose gear structure, the insurance is generally a bit less for a nose wheel, when I get ready to hang up my headset it might sell faster.
 
I don't have any stats on RV accidents but I'd really be surprised if the tailwheels had a lower accident rate than the trike gear...that would certainly go against what's going on in the rest of the aviation world.. I guess all youd have to do would be compare the insurance rates and the checkout times required. Having said that ...the RV tailwheels are some of the easiest to fly so i guess insurance rates would tell the tale.

I think accidents on landing are almost always pilot error so i wouldn't be blaming the aircraft ....better pilot techniques are where you should be looking.

If you tend to like rougher landing strips tailwheel is of course a better choice but small tires at high pressure and extremely tight wheel pants are not the best choice no matter the gear design.

Personally if your flying skills are decent i honestly can't imagine I'd be making a choice of trike gear vs conventional gear to avoid a tip over...:)
 
Please to explain "steering wheel." Are you not aware that all RVs use differential breaking for ground steering?

Your assertion on flip over is equally accurate, meaning, not at all.

I think by “steering wheel”, he didn’t mean the planes have a tiller, but he was describing the location of the third wheel that steers. I would have used the terms “training wheel vs tailwheel”. (Ducking for cover) Another term for a nosewheel on an RV is a pole vault. (Still ducking)

BTW, tailwheel don’t use differential brakes as a primary steering.. they have springs connecting the third wheel to the rudder. Brakes are more for tight turns and maybe emergency in case it tries to get away from you.
 
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I have a tailwheel endorsement and many hours in such, but never particularly cared for the concept. That, plus a conversation with my insurance broker....tail wheel was off the table for me as I was looking to buy an RV.
 
I would have used the terms “training wheel vs tailwheel”. (Ducking for cover) Another term for a nosewheel on an RV is a pole vault. (Still ducking)

I don’t think this kind of response is what the original poster is looking for. In fact I clipped below in his post his request to keep from this thread turning into this eventual never ending debate.

So I’m not at all wanting to start an argument about something that has likely has been beaten to death already, before my time.
 
Training wheel type planes are more popular in all makes (not just Vans) as most learnt to drive on training wheel machines and never went on to learn the proper skills to drive conventional U/C! Appearance wise is in the eye of the beholder.
For me I have a mate who has the training wheel version of mine (8) and parked together they are chalk & cheese is sexy looks:D
 
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Nose Gear RV Value

It's been proven that tricycle gear RVs have lower insurance rates. The nose gear failures get a lot of attention though.

Biggest benefit for tricycle gear aircraft is visibility during taxi. Obvious drawbacks are weight increase, stepping up onto the wing, loading the baggage area, checking the upper fuselage and vertical fin/rudder on the pre-flight...

Flying off of grass:

1. At walking taxi speeds I feel I still need to use the brakes to steer nose gear RVs and rarely use the brakes on tail wheel RVs. These are mostly true on pavement too.

2. I treat nose gear and tail wheel RVs the same, I hold the elevator fully aft to lighten the weight on the nose gear or pin the tail down on tail wheel models. The only time the elevator isn't fully aft is after gaining a few knots on the takeoff roll or while first touching down on landing. I hold the nose gear off while slowing until the stick is fully aft, then I hold it there until shut down. Landing a tail wheel I pin the stick aft after the tail wheel is on the ground and hold it there until shut down. Very similar. Same for pavement.

Resale value of nose gear RVs might be a little higher with identically equipped RVs of the same model, especially RV-6, 7, 9, and 14. When comparing asking prices look at the panels, engine, propeller (C/S vs FP) and build quality.

The RV-3 and 4 are not available in the tricycle configuration.

The RV-8 is less prone to be simply a cross country plane and more likely of an aerobatic mission focus, paint like warbirds and play around solo, which lends itself to the more conventional configuration. People will often do a double take when they see a nose wheel on an RV-8.

Best of luck making your choice. If you don't care about the gear you can buy the best built RV you can find with the panel configured the way you like it.

Enjoy the hunt! Get Vic's book and still make sure to get an RV knowledgeable A&P do a prebuy examination on it before you buy.
 
As you can see a lot of egos get involved in this discussion (which is of no help), but at the end of the day when you want to evaluate risk, insurance companies are usually the experts, and they universally seem to agree that other things being equal, a tailwheel aircraft presents more financial risk. Nose gear collapses are rare but newsworthy - kinda like when a commercial airline crashes. Minor tailwheel incidents happen all the time, but we don't hear about them.

But when it comes to resale, I think there are more -A models for sale simply because there are more -A models built these days. There are plenty of tailwheel rated pilots who would still happily buy an otherwise perfect -A model, but not a lot of non-tailwheel pilots who would buy a tailwheel RV when so many great examples of A models are available.

Also, mission probably plays a role. In the beginning, when RV's where simply sport airplanes, conventional gear made perfect sense. Now, with a lot of IFR traveling airplanes being built, the last thing some people want to worry about at the end of a 4 hour flight is a strong crosswind at an unfamiliar airport, especially if that same airplane can still do barrel rolls on the weekend.

Chris
 
Please to explain "steering wheel." Are you not aware that all RVs use differential breaking for ground steering?

Your assertion on flip over is equally accurate, meaning, not at all.

Meaning the wheel that allows steering, the one that pivots, and I’m unaware of any RV’s with cross wind gear.

But go over on their back is I believe accurate, almost all other aircraft that on nose gear collapse just skid along on their nose, going over on their back is uncommon, but it seems RV’s do go over.
 
For whatever it’s worth larger aircraft steerable tail wheels are uncommon, they usually just free swivel and lock straight ahead for take offs and landings, but on those differential braking and rudder when there is enough airflow is easy and comes naturally.
I have a few thousand hours in Crop Dusters and none of them had steerable tail wheels, but you had best have them locked on take off and landings and the ones that lock automatically are in my opinion preferable.

All tailwheels were free swiveling, until BD Maule invented the steerable tailwheel, the same guy that built Maule’s.

I guess I need to keep waiting for an 8 that I can afford to come up for sale, and not an A model.

I was wondering if A models sold for less money was all as I expected them to be in more of a demand as everyone can fly a tricycle, but tailwheel pilots are becoming less common, sort of like those that can drive a manual transmission car.
So I thought that A’s would sell for more than straight models, but wasn’t seeing that and wondered why.
 
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The previous owner of my -9A installed every nose gear enhancement item that Ant-Splat makes. I don’t know if those mods have any documented benefit...numbers are probably way too small to prove the value...but they look good in theory and I draw some comfort from the fact that they are there. In the meantime, I am continually mindful of my landing technique. My suspicion is that my risk of a nose-over is substantially less than my risk of a ground loop. My insurance company thinks so too, apparently.
 
If the insurance rates are higher on tail wheels just accept that they are correct. Nobody studies accident rates more than insurance companies. Probably just as many tail wheel RVs flip as trikes. The poster that suggested that you shop based on finding the RV with the right engine prop combination and the right avionics is the smart guy. I’d never base my decision totally on tailwheel or trike.....the only model I might only go tailwheel is the 8 but that’s an emotional decision not a necessarily a wise one.:D
 
I built KELLI GIRL with the Anti-Splat brace, and have religiously kept weight off the nose strut during takeoffs and landings. Get the nose up ASAP on takeoff, hold that attitude, and let her fly when she's ready. Land on the mains every time, keep the nose up. It's just how you fly the A-model RV.

There are two particular nose strut mods that not only help avoid strut failure, but also help dampen/eliminate the strut's oscillation during takeoff roll: The Anti-Splat strut brace and their nosewheel sealed bearing mod. Money well-spent.

I don't believe there's any cost/price/value difference between nose-draggers and tail-draggers. Data might show otherwise, but it's probably negligible.
Yes, if you leave the nose's weight on the nose wheel during takeoff and landing, and you find a suitable depression in the runway surface, you run the risk of collapsing the strut and maybe ending up on your back. Don't fly it that way.

I counter with a general question of how often folks have ground-looped a taildragger RV. Yes, it's a wonderfully balanced airplane, so, yes, RV ground loops are rare...but not impossible. Ask Squeeky and his bride.

So, to the OP: Build the airplane you want, don't sweat the resale value/wheel placement factor (it'll sell). Equip and fly it properly. You'll be glad, whatever choice you make.
 
Wasn't going to add this, but here I go.

I'm a guy who folded the nose gear, at Oshkosh of course. Didn't flip over. How can that be?

Anyway, as Scroll indicated there are some Anti-splat modifications. I had none of them during the incident. When building back I added:

1) The Nose Job 2 - that's the gear leg stiffner
2) The Lip Skid - that goes on the end of the gear to reduce tendency to 'dig in"


I haven't done the bearing mod he mentioned, yet.

ymmv
 
Would you guys mind attaching links to these mods to the nose gear?
Is there a stiffer gear or a way of stiffing the gear that’s available?

As I’m sure you all aware, there are a couple of vids that show the gear fail, and it doesn’t seem that it comes from a shimmy, but from a fore and aft flexing of the gear strut until it flexes far enough aft so that the strut or other piece other than the wheel makes contact, and when that happens of course the leg has to fail.

Sorry to bring up old news, but if I’m to buy an A model RV, I want to become as educated as possible about fixes for the front gear.

Not to beat a dead horse, but when Cessna sort of abandoned the tail wheel for most models in favor of tricycle landing gear, the marketing dept called the new gear “Land-O-matic” gear.
https://stateaviationjournal.com/index.php/national-news/land-o-matic-makes-flying-like-driving
 
Antisplat

Would you guys mind attaching links to these mods to the nose gear?
Is there a stiffer gear or a way of stiffing the gear that’s available?

As I’m sure you all aware, there are a couple of vids that show the gear fail, and it doesn’t seem that it comes from a shimmy, but from a fore and aft flexing of the gear strut until it flexes far enough aft so that the strut or other piece other than the wheel makes contact, and when that happens of course the leg has to fail.

Sorry to bring up old news, but if I’m to buy an A model RV, I want to become as educated as possible about fixes for the front gear. <SNIP...>

Start here. Several "A" model mods
https://antisplataero.com

Also worth considering. Vans designed the Nose Gear on the 10 & 14A to be more robust with shock absorbing. They recently offered the modified gear and engine mount to 7A & 9A builders. It's offered as new install and retrofit. I'm installing it on myb7A build. It would be interesting to see accident data related to the new gear on the respective models to see if it has changed anything.
 
You know more often than not I type up a reply and click submit reply, then a window pops up and says I need to be signed in to reply so I sign in, and the reply is gone.

I was signed in ti begin with of course, or else how do you get to the reply window?
it’s getting annoying losing posts like that
 
Also worth considering. Vans designed the Nose Gear on the 10 & 14A to be more robust with shock absorbing. They recently offered the modified gear and engine mount to 7A & 9A builders. It's offered as new install and retrofit. I'm installing it on myb7A build. It would be interesting to see accident data related to the new gear on the respective models to see if it has changed anything.

This is important! Van’s new design has ben engineered by the same guys that designed the airplane in the first place. There is lots of anecdotal data about the AntiSplat mods, but we have seen more than a few “A” models on their backs with the AntiSplat installed - so it is not a foolproof solution.

Also remember that there are literally thousands of “A” model RV’s flying around with stock nose gears that have never flipped. Guys fly them all the time, and you don’t hear about it - you only hear about the comparatively few that have gone over on their backs. The lesson being - don’t let those frighten you. Flown appropriately, those gear work fine. And if you want better, consider the new Van’s design.

Note that I only fly “A” model RV’s occasionally, but I have flown them all. I also have a couple thousand hours in the Yankee, which has a similar design nose gear (although it appears much more robust) and we all treated them like glass and survived fine.

Paul
 
Again after typing up a response I get the have to sing in to post page,sign it and it takes me to a blank page, go back and response is gone.

That is getting annoying,but this time I copied the post


Issue is that I live on a grass strip, one that there was a fatality in 04 from an overturned 6A, from a failed nose gear.

http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AccidentDetailPage

That’s what got me looking, and there is a whole lot of information and especially video of gear collapsing, and gear wildly shimmying.
Last airplane was a Maule M6/235, that I took almost everywhere, now I’m not expecting to turn an RV into a bush plane, but I do like flying into unapproved grass strips from time to time, and I think a tailwheel 8 can do that without too much problem, maybe take its pants off from time to time.

Yes, I know the SR20 and 22 have similar gear too, and I’ve only heard of a rare gear collapse, and without fatalities.
No, I don’t want a Cirrus, but I think I have talked myself into letting this 8A go, even though it looks to be a fine airplane.

So if anyone knows of a good 8 available by say mid Jan, I should have cash in hand by then, upper limit of my budget is 90K.
I’d like a 180 HP ideally fuel injected mid time Lycoming with CS prop, and steam gauges and VFR is fine. Good workmanship.
I don’t need a nose wheel, don’t even really want one, but certainly understand those that do, and I guess most do keep to paved runways, that’s fine too.

I think I have talked myself out of a nose wheel as it’s not what I need and didn’t really want I guess, just too many instances of failures, and when people are fielding fixes, it’s most often because there really is a problem that needs fixing.

I appreciate the information, and you guys educating me. and allowing me to bounce thoughts against people in the know.
It’s helped me decide that I need to wait until what Ii want becomes available.

Now just have to learn to be patient :)
 
In an old RVATOR Vans himself pontificated he could land and take off shorter in the A model. YMMV.

You can, it’s pretty well established by other aircraft, the nose wheel Maule for example.

The reason is that a nose wheel airplane can lift the nose higher and get the wing to a higher angle of attack, a tailwheel airplane cannot lift the nose any higher than it is already, because of course the tailwheel is already on the ground.

For instance if your really dragging a Maule in for a short landing, the tailwheel hits the ground with the mains two feet in the air, which causes the mains to come down pretty suddenly, and that’s what old man Maule called a kerplunk landing.

But identical airplanes, a nose gear due it allowing a higher angle of attack, will outperform a tailwheel in short take offs and landings, in most cases, especially one with excess power.

But a tailwheel will usually tolerate rougher ground without damage
 
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Issue is that I live on a grass strip, one that there was a fatality in 04 from an overturned 6A, from a failed nose gear.

I think "failed nose gear" may be bit unfair, because usually technique contributes to the "failure". That being said, -A models can certainly be more unforgiving on rough fields, just like tailwheels can be more unforgiving in gusty crosswinds. If you plan on operating on rougher fields and are comfortable with a tailwheel, that sounds like the right answer for you.
 
I’ve had the same thing happen and it IS very annoying. Try hitting “Preview” every few minutes as you type; it seems to let the forum software know you’re still there. I’ve also used the “Stay Signed In” option at login, which helps, but doesn’t seem to be as consistent as periodically previewing your post.
Again after typing up a response I get the have to sing in to post page,sign it and it takes me to a blank page, go back and response is gone.

That is getting annoying,but this time I copied the post


Issue is that I live on a grass strip, one that there was a fatality in 04 from an overturned 6A, from a failed nose gear.

http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AccidentDetailPage

That’s what got me looking, and there is a whole lot of information and especially video of gear collapsing, and gear wildly shimmying.
Last airplane was a Maule M6/235, that I took almost everywhere, now I’m not expecting to turn an RV into a bush plane, but I do like flying into unapproved grass strips from time to time, and I think a tailwheel 8 can do that without too much problem, maybe take its pants off from time to time.

Yes, I know the SR20 and 22 have similar gear too, and I’ve only heard of a rare gear collapse, and without fatalities.
No, I don’t want a Cirrus, but I think I have talked myself into letting this 8A go, even though it looks to be a fine airplane.

So if anyone knows of a good 8 available by say mid Jan, I should have cash in hand by then, upper limit of my budget is 90K.
I’d like a 180 HP ideally fuel injected mid time Lycoming with CS prop, and steam gauges and VFR is fine. Good workmanship.
I don’t need a nose wheel, don’t even really want one, but certainly understand those that do, and I guess most do keep to paved runways, that’s fine too.

I think I have talked myself out of a nose wheel as it’s not what I need and didn’t really want I guess, just too many instances of failures, and when people are fielding fixes, it’s most often because there really is a problem that needs fixing.

I appreciate the information, and you guys educating me. and allowing me to bounce thoughts against people in the know.
It’s helped me decide that I need to wait until what Ii want becomes available.

Now just have to learn to be patient :)
 
I guess all youd have to do would be compare the insurance rates and the checkout times required.

Robert is right, the insurance companies have done the work for you. Get a rate quote...my guess, with your tailwheel time the rate is the same and points to equal safety records.
 


The concept summarized....:) (see attachment)

Anyway, there are some planes that are fun to fly that are tailwheel only. There are others...like RV's...that can be either. Some people do love tail dragger airplanes and more power to 'em. Me...I can fly an RV in either configuration. I have the creds, understand the concept. I just don't care for tail draggers if I have a choice. And I do.


..
 

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My wife decided she wanted to learn to fly years ago. I suggested she learn on a tailwheel because once she was proficient in a tailwheel flying anything else would be easy for her plus she wouldn't notice the difference. She started in a 7ac champ on a grass strip with zero radio work. She then decided she wanted to move up to pavement and something that had electric start so she soled in a Citabria. We bought an Acrosport 11 and I got back to my love for aerobatics and she cussed out the acro sport because she figured she was flying blind, actually she was, head was about flush with the fuselage, lol. We then bought a Pacer and she loved it. Those little Pacers have eaten lots of pilots lunches over the years. You might remember that when the Tripacer came out it out sold the Pacer by about 6-7 times....and that was back in the day when many pilots were proficient in tailwheels. Now the Pacer is a very cute aircraft compared to its tricycle geared brother the Tripacer but that didn't seem to slow the sales one little bit. Eventually they quit building the Pacer, not enough sales.
I've got thousands of hours in tailwheels of just about any sort and don't think anything of flying anything with a tailwheel and I dare say, tongue in cheek that the RV tailwheels tend to be very easy to fly and bit cuter than the A version but unlike the Tripacer it's up to individual opinions. We ended up with an A model RV because it had everything I wanted except the tailwheel.
It was finally time for my wife to give it a go and she hadn't really flown in a couple of years and had never even been in a tricycle gear aircraft.
I went through all the basics and she carefully repeated everything back before adding full throttle...I never touched it. She had a bit of a problem with the sensitivity of the controls just at the beginning but in no time that was under control, speed was the next issue but the constant speed prop helped. She made a decent approach and an excellent landing holding the nose gear off....well what do you think I asked her.....her response, why do people want tailwheels? These trikes are so easy to fly! I can even see really good.
On our way home we talked about it and she said...I'm happy to fly tailwheels but I think if I was making the buying decision it probably wouldn't be a tailwheel unless we were flying the bush.
To be honest I don't really disagree with her:) Her car is a standard shift so she's still a little bit backwards, LOL.
 
nose wheels

Yes, I agree...we're planning on building a nose gear equipped RV-14A so more people can enjoy it without breaking the bank on insurance. Our family is full of aviators, but few have enough experience to make it viable to cover them in the tail wheel, so with the improvements Vans has made on the nose gear in the 10 and 14, we're ready to try one out.

We currently fly the RV-7 and enjoy the sexy look and performance and I'm keeping it. Adding a -14A to our fleet that we build ourselves will be a fun family experience and we don't have to be in a hurry to finish so we will enjoy the journey while we fly the -7.

The -14 will be used to train a couple kids to fly when its finished and be a plane my wife can see over the nose without huge S turns when taxiing. More fun for all with plenty of horsepower and room to boot.
 
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