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Van's Instructions - It shouldn't be THIS hard!

jrock836

Well Known Member
Van's Instructions

Okay, not wanting to look like an idiot, I have spent way too much time trying to understand what is going on. I give up..

**EDIT: I should have said, I give up on trying to figure out how the instructions could be correct.. I'm not giving up on Van's, my airplane or getting this modification done.. ****

I recently received my baggage bulkhead modification kit and have been getting ready to install it. The kit didn't come with instructions, so I'm using the latest KAI's that Van's sent me on memory stick that deal with the Baggage Cargo Bulkhead.

The section that deals with the Baggage Bulkhead is KAI 33.03.

#1 - What the heck is a AN436AD3-3.5? The instructions seem to indicate it's a rivet. The kit included a bunch of rivets, but they all look the same to me. The instructions seem to indicate that I'm suppose to install 12 of them. I did a Google search of AN436AD3-3.5 and can't seem to find anything. I do notice that just below that it specifies using rivet AN426AD3-3.5 for the other style of platenut...

#2 - I see a Step #9 and a Step #11 in the instructions. Where or what is Step #10?

Are both of these issues just typos or am I missing something? If they are typos, more power to you guys building. If all of the instructions are like this section, the common sense, attention to detail part of me would go crazy by the time I finished building an entire airplane.
 

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Okay, not wanting to look like an idiot, I have spent way too much time trying to understand what is going on. I give up..

I recently received my baggage bulkhead modification kit and have been getting ready to install it. The kit didn't come with instructions, so I'm using the latest KAI's that Van's sent me on memory stick that deal with the Baggage Cargo Bulkhead.

The section that deals with the Baggage Bulkhead is KAI 33.03.

#1 - What the heck is a AN436AD3-3.5? The instructions seem to indicate it's a rivet. The kit included a bunch of rivets, but they all look the same to me. The instructions seem to indicate that I'm suppose to install 12 of them. I did a Google search of AN436AD3-3.5 and can't seem to find anything. I do notice that just below that it specifies using rivet AN426AD3-3.5 for the other style of platenut...

#2 - I see a Step #9 and a Step #11 in the instructions. Where or what is Step #10?

Are both of these issues just typos or am I missing something? If they are typos, more power to you guys building. If all of the instructions are like this section, the common sense, attention to detail part of me would go crazy by the time I finished building an entire airplane.

Joe I think you're going to be in for a long road ahead :)

I'm not familiar with the "new-style" instructions. The older style was more of a narrative, and you would consult the drawings after reading the narrative.

Based on my limited experience the new style, with the narratives and drawings co-located, is more intuitive for me.

Now, I think those are probably typos, and you're right probably 426 rivets. From deduction, since each section has a hardware bag associated with it, and inventory, you can see what hardware goes with each step.

It's usually wise to read an entire section to get idea of how the structure will go together before following the instructions rote.

There's lots of RV guys in DFW so if you need help getting started there's some great mentors to choose from.
 
Joe I think you're going to be in for a long road ahead :)

I'm not familiar with the "new-style" instructions. The older style was more of a narrative, and you would consult the drawings after reading the narrative.

Based on my limited experience the new style, with the narratives and drawings co-located, is more intuitive for me.

Now, I think those are probably typos, and you're right probably 426 rivets. From deduction, since each section has a hardware bag associated with it, and inventory, you can see what hardware goes with each step.

It's usually wise to read an entire section to get idea of how the structure will go together before following the instructions rote.

There's lots of RV guys in DFW so if you need help getting started there's some great mentors to choose from.

Well luckily for me, I'm not building an entire airplane.. Just installing this one modification.. Hopefully it's just a short bumpy road, rather than a long one.. :)

I seem to have a special kind of luck.. Often times when I blow off things like this, I later find I should have paid closer attention, because it wasn't a typo.. It was a failure on my part, due to not comprehending them..
 
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Joe, there was someone fairly close to you that responded to your previous thread "Low Cost Options". I respectfully suggest, now would be a good time to get his advise & help with your project.

Vans covers basic sheet metal working principles in Chapter 1 of the build manuals, by the time a builder normally gets to fuselage bulkhead panels, it's assumed those basic building skills would have already been conquered.
 
Maybe Step #10 should be "Dimple the platenut holes so they will lay flush to the aluminum BEFORE completing Step #9".

Vans covers basic sheet metal working principles in Chapter 1 of the build manuals, by the time a builder normally gets to fuselage bulkhead panels, it's assumed those basic building skills would have already been conquered.

I have completely read Section 5 .. My issue is with Chapter 33 and what appears to be conflicting information. Are you saying that by the time you get to Chapter 33, most have learned to ignore the Van's instructions and bad info contained within?
 
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An important part of the standard build manuals / KAI, is Section 5

It is the general build knowledge section that explains a lot of the standard stuff that needs to be learned (including what the part # and sizing nomenclature of rivets means)
 
Other than the fact there appears to be a typo with the step numbers (11 should be 10), the instructions seem clear. Unless 10 was to countersink the nutplate holes. Which is possible.

First, align the holes on the two pieces, hold them together with clecos, and match drill.

Then dimple the 12 holes that the rivets go through and rivet the nutplates to the sheet part (F-00103). Use a squeezer for that (pneumatic or manual). If they don't seem to fit right then the missing step was probably the countersink.

Then you attach the F-00103 to the F-00102 with the AN526C832R8 screws.

Then on the next page you install the combined pieces again using screws into pre-existing nutplates.
 
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An important part of the standard build manuals / KAI, is Section 5

It is the general build knowledge section that explains a lot of the standard stuff that needs to be learned (including what the part # and sizing nomenclature of rivets means)

Thanks Scott.. I took his word for it being Section 1... Yes, I have read and looked at all of KAI, Section 5... Section 1 is just the Introduction..
 
I can't speak for Ralph and what he is saying, but my own reaction would be that builders learn to deal with these situations pretty early on in the build. Most of us do that during the tail kit when the risk is relatively low and our mindset is one of learning how this all works.

What you raise is kind of a funny question. I think most of us would look at that and recognize both problems as typos. Half of us would think that it's no big deal because it's not hard to determine the correct rivet and step #'s aren't that important. The other half of us would look at and make those same assumptions, but question it 5 times over because typos like that are incredibly rare so maybe we're missing something. Not saying they are non-existent, but very very rare.

I guess my overall point is that I understand why you are upset with having to figure this out, but your mistaken if you jump to the conclusion that RV-12is instructions are so bad that we learn to ignore them.

It's not that hard. You just skipped the learning process part. Get a little help like others have suggested. Or just put the 426 3-3.5 rivets in, take 10 steps, and build on with the bulkhead modification.

Maybe Step #10 should be "Dimple the platenut holes so they will lay flush to the aluminum BEFORE completing Step #9".



I have completely read Chapter 1.. My issue is with Chapter 33 and what appears to be conflicting information. Are you saying that by the time you get to Chapter 33, most have learned to ignore the Van's instructions and bad info contained within?
 
Nutplates don't get dimpled, they get countersunk.

I would direct you to KAI Section 5R that deals with Installing Nutplates.. unless that's something else I should just ignore.. :)

Basically it says that if you dimple aluminum structure, you dimple the nutplate behind it. It even talks about modifying the dimple die so that you can prevent the center nutplate screw hole flange from interfering with the die.. With that said, I can't see why countersinking the nutplates wouldn't work too, as long as the nutplate is at least .032 thick.. Van's seems to feel better about only countersinking material that is .040 or thicker.. Pretty sure the nutplate isn't that thick.. But then again, we're not building the space shuttle here either.. :) Cheers!
 
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Yep, looks like some typos on the instruction sheet. AN436 should read AN426.
Never having seen the complete instruction sheet for this, I would assume step 10 would be riveting the nutplates to the back of the small panel.

Not having privy to the rest of the instructions, or knowing what comes in the package - I would assume the general progression would go something like this.

-You are given dimensions to cut the corner out of the big panel.
-You are instructed to overlay the new small panel over the big panel to drill #30 pilot holes (screw holes) through the big panel.
-You than prepare the small panel for the nutplates - I assume each #30 (screw pilot) hole is bracketed with a couple smaller #40 rivet holes.
-You than dimple the small panel for the AN426 rivet heads - so the forward facing surface of the small panel is nicely flush for a tight fit to the big panel.
-You now open up all the #30 pilot holes to #19 so the screws will fit through.
-(probably step 10) Back to the nutplates, position them, use a silver cleko (if you have some) to hold it in place while you rivet the other side. Remove the cleko and rivet the other side. Repeat with all nutplates.
-Screw the 2 panels together, re-install the panel assy to the plane.

Your local advise / assist person could have done the whole job faster than it took me to type this, (after editing all my my typos).

Good flying!
 
I can't speak for Ralph and what he is saying, but my own reaction would be that builders learn to deal with these situations pretty early on in the build. Most of us do that during the tail kit when the risk is relatively low and our mindset is one of learning how this all works.

What you raise is kind of a funny question. I think most of us would look at that and recognize both problems as typos. Half of us would think that it's no big deal because it's not hard to determine the correct rivet and step #'s aren't that important. The other half of us would look at and make those same assumptions, but question it 5 times over because typos like that are incredibly rare so maybe we're missing something. Not saying they are non-existent, but very very rare.

I guess my overall point is that I understand why you are upset with having to figure this out, but your mistaken if you jump to the conclusion that RV-12is instructions are so bad that we learn to ignore them.

It's not that hard. You just skipped the learning process part. Get a little help like others have suggested. Or just put the 426 3-3.5 rivets in, take 10 steps, and build on with the bulkhead modification.

Thanks N8DAV8R.. I'm using the RV12, not RV12is, KAIs, so maybe the new ones are a bit better.

In any event I'm moving on and will get the two pieces of aluminum mounted in the plane and will discontinue looking for mystery rivets.. :)
 
Thanks N8DAV8R.. I'm using the RV12, not RV12is, KAIs, so maybe the new ones are a bit better.

In any event I'm moving on and will get the two pieces of aluminum mounted in the plane and will discontinue looking for mystery rivets.. :)

Awesome! I'll probably be finishing up my longeron flaring about the same time you're going flying.

Nice airplane in the profile pic!
 
Nutplates don't get dimpled, they get countersunk.

Not true

Depends on where the nutplate is installed and how thick the material. Some nutplates are installed in countersunk rivet holes on RV aircraft and some are installed with dimpled rivet holes. If the rivet hole is dimpled you dimple the ears of the nutplate also.


In this case the plans clearly say dimple the holes. So dimple the nutplate ears.
 
I use NAS rivets for all my nut plate installations. A -3 shaft and -2 head can make a flush installation in .025" material with no dimple or countersink of the nut plate. The countersink in .025" material can be made with 5-8 turns of a deburring tool. Practice as necessary. I found the NAS1097AD3-3 are used 99% of the time.

Do research (Section 5.16, second paragraph) and testing before jumping to conclusions.
 
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