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"RV Aerobatics" forum presentation at AirVenture

ronschreck

Well Known Member







IT'S AIR CONDITIONED! And if that doesn't attract you, stick around and we'll discuss everything from flying aerobatics for air shows, competition or just for fun. How to equip your RV for aerobatics, maneuver basics, safety and more.
Join me at the newly renovated IAC Pavilion, just off the NE corner of Boeing Square on Wednesday, 10:00 AM.

Only 80 seats in the room so arrive early and browse the displays at the Pavilion while you wait.


 
RV Aerobatics at OSH

My close buddies and I will be there!

Jim Gray
Flight Lead - Rocky Mountain Renegades
www.rmrairshows.com

4-ship%20vertical.jpg
 
You don?t need to be a fighter pilot



Of course fighter pilots have been trained in all three dimensions and would be naturals for going into aerobatic competition in their RVs or any aerobatic capable aircraft. However, I?d say the majority of the competitors at all levels were not fighter pilots. I went through a 10-hour aerobatic course almost 30 years ago and only had about 200 hours total at the time. Be forewarned that starting aerobatics can be very addictive where you?re constantly trying to improve the maneuvers and scores. You?ll also be welcomed in a friendly family of the best pilots in the world. Ron is the best person to give the seminar on RV aerobatics at Oshkosh. Not only does he really fly well and has shown what the RVs can do, but he?s also an IAC judge, and hopefully will be elected this year on the IAC Board of Directors. Only just a few years ago, there were only one or two RVs that competed in the US in a year. We now have seen about 8 this year. I believe the RVs will dominate the Primary and Sportsman categories in the coming years.:D

Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
 
This presentation is scheduled at the same time as the Van's RV Maintenance presentation by Dick himself. How did that happen?

Van's presentation is scheduled by the EAA, mine by the IAC. I guess the two don't compare notes.

At least this means that Dick won't be attending my forum so I can talk freely about him without fear of retribution.:D
 
Imitation is the highest form of flattery

So this is a hat-tip and shout-out to Smokey, all-around great stick and great guy:D

Go show 'em how it's done, Ron. All the best for your RV acro pursuits.
 
Love those Harbor Freight resin tool carts! I have several, they have become 'job specific'. (stay with one airplane until the job is done, then put tools away and stand by for next job)
I never thought about Hot Rodding one!
I'm all over it now!
 
I'm curious, how was the attendance and possible converts to RV aerobatics.

In this part of the country and half a dozen contests flown, I have not seen any RV's participate. They sure are more comfortable to fly enroute to a contest than my S1S :)

Cheers, Hans
 
I was at Ron's presentation, front and center. It was an EXCELLENT introduction to everything about RV aerobatics and how to get involved in aerobatic competitions. The competition part was really useful to me--I really just needed somebody to push me off the fence. Ron's presentation did the trick. I went over and signed up for the IAC right afterwards.

Next things on my list: 1) a parachute and 2) inverted oil.

Great job Ron. I really enjoyed it!
 
I really wanted to attend this one but ended up missing it. However, I did go by the IAC building and sign up for a free six month membership. One of my buddies competes with his Super Decathalon and can help me get started.

Question for the competetors: How necessary is it to have an inverted oil system to compete when starting out? The plane already has a flop tube in one tank for gas.
 
Cart is definitely a work in progress

Sure saves a lot of steps around the shop once completed. Ron made the original, and was my inspiration. I hope it will help as much with maintenance in a few years as it does with building now. Wife wants one for her crafts, too.

Presently unable to locate the thread where Smokey first posted his tool cart pics, but they were impressive - as is his workmanship and his flying.
 
Inverted systems and completion aerobatics

I really wanted to attend this one but ended up missing it. However, I did go by the IAC building and sign up for a free six month membership. One of my buddies competes with his Super Decathalon and can help me get started.

Question for the competetors: How necessary is it to have an inverted oil system to compete when starting out? The plane already has a flop tube in one tank for gas.

Obviously I meant COMPETITION aerobatics in the title!

Hi Mike,
The short answer is - NOT NECESSARY. Now to the full story.

Were I building an airplane, as you apparently are, I would definitely include an injected engine and a full inverted oil system.

That said, I'm competing in my RV-4 and I started without either. After my first contest, I installed the Raven air/oil separator (commonly called a Half Raven System). I'm debating injecting my O-360 but have many hours now flying the Sportsman level figures with just a carbureted motor.

The lack of injection will result in your engine cutting out during many of the figures that produce less than one G. That alone is no big deal, it just limits your performance some. At the Primary and Sportsman level, you won't spend enough time inverted for that to be a big limitation. A heavy, constant speed prop like mine really helps as it keeps the engine turning even when you get slow.

When it comes to oil, I would highly recommend either a Raven or a Christen air/oil separator as a minimum configuration. Unless you have an inverted fuel system, and want to do extended inverted flight, the full Raven or Christen systems really won't provide much benefit. The air oil separator though is a BIG deal because without one, you'll lose quite a bit of oil during a Sportsman level sequence, and especially during practice flights. That's not a safety issue but the oil will make a terrible mess of the bottom of your airplane and your ramp / hangar. It also makes tracking your oil consumption for analytical purposes or doing any meaningful oil analysis program practically impossible. You have to add too much makeup oil.

With a constant speed prop, the other limitation with a setup like mine is keeping oil pressure to the prop. Since the prop drives to full increase RPM when you lose pressure, you'll risk an overspeed if you don't pay close attention. I use a two quart oil accumulator to combat the overspeed problem. A full inverted fuel / oil system would almost eliminate the overspeed risk but not entirely. A counter-weighted aerobatic prop that goes to high pitch (reduce RPM) with loss of pressure is the only true solution but those are rare in a multi-purpose airplane like our RVs.

Bottom line - install a Raven or Christen air/oil separator at a minimum. If you have an inverted fuel system (injection), consider the full Raven or Christen system. An accumulator is a nice addition (with or without a full inverted system) as an aid to maintaining oil pressure.

Good luck with your plane!
Randy
 
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Awesome answer....thank you Randy.

My flying RV8 doesn't have an inverted oil system or fuel injection. The RV8 build is FI so my partner and I will take a look at the two systems you mentioned. For just starting out it sounds like the current plane's set up should be adequate.
 
Hey Ron, one of your slides showed a picture of your canopy pip pins. I didn't get a chance to ask you what those are / where to get them. Do you happen to remember the part number and size? Many thanks!
 
Hey Ron, one of your slides showed a picture of your canopy pip pins. I didn't get a chance to ask you what those are / where to get them. Do you happen to remember the part number and size? Many thanks!

Get 3/16 pins at McMaster Carr. Get them long enough to mount a large washer and a short length of rubber hose so you can grip them easily.
 
Oh that's a washer on there--from the slide it looked like something integral to the pin. Got it. Thanks for the reply Ron.
 
AirVenture wrap-up.

Kathy and I arrived home on Wednesday evening after a 915 mile drive from our camping spot in Fond du Lac. This is the first time we have driven to AirVenture and our first big trip in our new Tiffin RV (the 4-wheel variety). Camping in Fond du Lac at Breezy Hill Campground was a nice relief from the noise and crowds associated with AirVenture and the 30-minute drive to the show is an easy commute. Having a full-service camping spot and a pool are also pluses.

Turnout for my forum presentation on RV Aerobatics was beyond expectations as we had a standing room only crowd of RV pilots and a question and answer period that went on for a half hour outside the pavilion after the forum. Many of you signed up for the free IAC memberships following the forum. (Free 6-month memberships are still available. Go to IAC.org and click on "Join".) I hope I answered all of your questions and perhaps inspired a few of you to join in the fun and challenge of competition aerobatics or just aerobatics for your own pleasure.

If I left a question in your mind please feel free to ask it here or PM me.

At the IAC Membership Meeting on Friday I learned that I was elected to serve as a Director on the IAC Board. In this capacity I will be working for all members of IAC on a wide range of issues but my determination to bring more RV pilots into the organization will continue. I will be working with IAC VP Doug McConnell on the Membership Committee and the focus on RVs will continue. My thanks to those of you who cast your vote for me. I'll do my best to earn it.
 
Is there a video of the presentation available or perhaps the slides? I was at the other Vans related presentation going on at that time :)

Thanks,
Matt
 
Congrats on the board selection Ron! I will second the request for a copy of your slides. I took photos of many of them with my iPhone, but they are difficult to read. It would be great to get a copy of your presentation.
 
Recommended book

Hi Ron, after your great presentation I asked what book you would recommend for aerobatics. Of course I didn't write it down and now can't remember what you said. Please provide it again. Thanks
 
Hi Ron, after your great presentation I asked what book you would recommend for aerobatics. Of course I didn't write it down and now can't remember what you said. Please provide it again. Thanks


It's Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy. You can get it at the IAC.org online store or Amazon. It's not cheap but neither is 100LL. :D
 
I read Van's article and I thought it was really good. Adding the section that describes how the plane should be prepped for acro is very useful.

I do believe he overlooked one item though (I'll have to re-read the section to be certain):

Be sure you have a sealed battery. If you don't then you will get battery acid leaking out of the filler caps.
 
I read Van's article and I thought it was really good. Adding the section that describes how the plane should be prepped for acro is very useful.

I do believe he overlooked one item though (I'll have to re-read the section to be certain):

Be sure you have a sealed battery. If you don't then you will get battery acid leaking out of the filler caps.

Good point! I never considered that as I have never run across RVs with unsealed batteries, but I suppose a few are out there. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Good point! I never considered that as I have never run across RVs with unsealed batteries, but I suppose a few are out there. Thanks for the heads up.

When I bought the -8 it had a Gill. Great battery but it leaked acid once I started acro work. So now I'm going to fit an Odyssey. This requires modification of the battery tray (my batt is aft of the PAX seat)
 
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