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RV-10 Down

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I recognize Frank's name as a poster here on VAF. Glad they are all ok. I'm sure we'll get to hear some more details soon enough.
 
Geico266 said:
Great news on all surviving cold weather and a delayed rescue.

Good work guys. :D
Click to expand...

Glad they are OK.

The latitude and longitude coordinates given to us by the passengers proved to be incorrect,” Jaquish said. “For whatever reason, their GPS device wasn’t accurate, so it took DEC longer to find them.”

The full story behind this statement would be interesting...
 
Real Story

Lat and Long given to the 911 operator 4 times was 100% accurate. They failed on the communication to the SAR team. I can't say enough for the fortitude of the SAR team that hiked in to help us.

We are very upset with the cover up of the errors in the dispatch system. We will foia the 911 calls to clarify the truth. We spent 10 hours in single digit temperatures, which was worse than the plane crash. While we greatly appreciate the efforts of everyone that helped us, we do not appreciate their misrepresentation of the facts.

My RV-10 took a beating, yet the cabin protected us incredibly well. I am not in a position to post the details of the crash, as there were many factors yet to reconcile. The plane performed flawlessly and was not a factor in this accident.

Best,
Frank
 
Glad to hear everyone made it out okay. Sorry to hear it was badly reported in the media.
 
Thankful for your safety!

I second Pierre's sentiments as well. It pains me to see any of our aircraft go down but I am so glad you guys had the fortitude to withstand the elements dispite the situation! Well done guys and so happy to hear you made it home safely! As a former emergency responder, I also share your disappointment with a dispatch system which failed to deliver the performance they should have. It sounds like some retraining should be in order for them soon...

Roger Pierce
Broken Arrow, OK
 
Which GPS format does 911 expect?

According to Winchell, the coordinates given by the New Jersey men were in a format not typically used by environmental department search teams.
Click to expand...

Aha! I'd be very interested in knowing more about this. It could save lives in the future. Granted, everyone should be able to convert formats, but if comms are scratchy or voices weak, it'd be an extra safety margin if sender and receiver were using the same format without having to figure it out from partial data received, for example. So which GPS format do the emergency folks expect? dd.ddddd or ddmmss or ddmm.mmmm or ????

By the way, kudos for crashing so gently, whatever the circumstances!
 
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Wow

what is there to say, 'cept glad everyone is OK....

Wonder if the ELT signal was picked up.
 
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ELT is one thing, but a damned good reason for having a 406 PLB with built in GPS.

No confusion then, and it keeps pinging till they find you and you turn it off.

Something is strange about this crash.

I hope when all the reports are done we can all learn from this as to how a perfectly serviceable ( allegedly) plane is in the trees. And how it was flown in, so we can see how the survival aspects of the airframe work. Live crash test dummies, tough job:eek::eek:
 
We are glad you guys are okay and can continue with your ski trip. Yes, we all will learn from this and appreciate your post.

The dense forest really helped absorb a lot of energy. Did the fuel tanks leak? Did you have synthetic vision on the AFS?

Wx 12.7 nm NW of LKP: KSLK 212251Z AUTO 20003KT 5SM BR OVC014 M12/M14 A3012 RMK AO2 SNB04E18 SLP241 P0000 T11221139 TSNO

Wx 31.4 nm NE of LKP: KPBG 212253Z AUTO 10003KT 8SM -SN BKN035 OVC044 M07/M09 A3020 RMK AO2 SLP233 P0000 T10721094
 
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ELT

As a result of this mix up at the 911 centre, I will be talking to the folks at my 911 centre to ensure they have the ability to take GPS coordinates and use them properly.

Glad you and your friends are in great shape Frank!

Cheers,


Don
 
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we have the info that we want

It will me my only post.
They just crash. They don't need to hear thing like that now. Let them deal with their family. Let them deal with their insurance. Probably frank will let us know when everything arrange what really happened.

All we need to know now is that 1- they are all safe, 2 the cabin protected them well,3 it wasn't a failure of the plane or structural problem ( door etc)

As a surgeon, when i remove a cancer, can't really tell how bad it is until the pathology report is available and a lot of time it's not exactly what i expected.
So let them do their job and we will see the result later. Let Frank relax.


Lan Vinh Do
 
Don Patrick said:
As a result of this mix up at the 911 centre, I will be talking to the folks at my 911 centre to ensure they have the ability to take GPS coordinates and use them properly.

Glad you and your friends are in great shape Frank!

Cheers,


Don
Click to expand...

as someone who performs wireless 911 test calls. i can verify they receive them in DD.DDDDDDD format
 
Glad you walked away and are now safe!

I'll remind folks that replies that are speculative in nature will be removed. When the final NTSB report comes out we'll have an opportunity to learn.
 
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I wonder how closely they can track the ping of a cell phone? They could also use "Find my iPhone" or "find my friends" app to locate an iPhone. 10 hours is a LONG time to be freezing and waiting.
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Glad you walked away and are now safe!

I'll remind folks that replies that are speculative in nature will be removed. When the final NTSB report comes out we'll have an opportunity to learn.
Click to expand...

Very good Doug. But I'm just curious as to who has been delegated the task of appending the NTSB report to this thread once it becomes available. Will that be you ? [ed. I can be anybody. dr]

Of course it is also possible that, considering that there were no injuries and the occupants refused any medical treatment, there will be no NTSB report for this accident.

Any discussion on new RV accidents on VansAirforce now seems to be limited to not much more than messages of condolence. And that's fine....but I very rarely see the promised NTSB reports appearing on VansAirforce down the track.

A quick check through the archives will reveal that, despite the fact that there are large numbers of accidents reported on VansAirforce, there are very few NTSB reports posted.
 
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tkatc said:
I wonder how closely they can track the ping of a cell phone? They could also use "Find my iPhone" or "find my friends" app to locate an iPhone. 10 hours is a LONG time to be freezing and waiting.
Click to expand...

Only if there are cell towers in the area and then only if they are not down in a hole.
 
From a BeechTalk post...

I got the cliff notes of the story from Frank this morning ? I may not have this completely correct but here's the gist of what happened. What was most scary about hearing him tell this to me is I could see getting sucked in to the same kind of situation. Just like they always tell us, accidents are usually caused by what seems (at the time) like a a chain of minor events and if you can break the chain then it doesn't happen. If you don't break it, you look up just in time to hit the side of a mountain.

Frank told his friends he didn't want to land at night but he knew they were calling it close. He got two weather briefings via AOPA & Foreflight and also called FAA for an update on the way to the airport, he also called the airport for a first hand report ? he said he was mostly thinking about ice. They got off on time but fought a 47 kt headwinds and so they got there later than planned (surprise 1) . He picked up an IFR clearance for the GPS approach. While shooting the approach he got a visual on the airport (when looking down, he said it looked like daylight down there) so he canceled (or got cleared for the visual I'm not sure I've got this part correct). He dropped down below the clouds and it was much darker than above (surprise 2), he clicked the airport lights and they wouldn't come on (turns out they have been having troubles with them but there were no notams) (surprise 3), at the same time one of his the big EFIS displays wouldn't dim (surprise 4). Frank said!
he thought he spent maybe 20-30 seconds trying to rectify these problems rather than going missed. He did decide to go missed but hit the side of the mountain as he was executing and hitting buttons.

? in retrospect Frank said he should have gone missed with ANY problem but these other factors sucked him into thinking he could quickly fix them and land. In another friend's words "that's why they call it an "accident" rather than an "on purpose"".

Franks said it is a miracle to be alive, they hiked to the crash site today and he said it really hit him how lucky they were. A cut finger, a bruised face and frostbite is the worst of the physical injuries. He feels terrible about putting his friends in harms way and it's gonna take some time for him to forgive himself.
 
Controlled flight into terrain always seems so simple to avoid in hind sight, but while it's happening, a completely different story. It's happened in the past to military, civilian, and even test pilots (SSJ prototype). The most important thing is that everyone from this incident is alive to tell the story and help us pilots get a little bit better by learning from those before us!

Glad everyone is still with us!
 
"Task loading"

We started having experienced ag pilots fly into treetops and so on when we added our GPS swath guidance systems, 15 or so, years ago. We're guided to 1 foot laterally but each new field has to have an entry by pushbutton and there's a lightbar on top of the cowl that we have to fly to.

"Task-loading" catches a lot of us because there's only so much that your mind can process at any given time. The more you add to do, the less likely it is that you'll pay attention to the most important aspects of the flight, as Frank has shown.

Thanks very much for the reminder and soooo glad all of you came out on top.

Best,
 
good Thread

This is a great thread, glad all are ok.
The value in this to me is that we can all step back and learn. Anyone who wishes to chime in and said they have NEVER made an error, let the plane get ahead of them, pushed the limits, got focused on the electronics etc is flat out lying or never flies.

I dont wish anyone to get hurt, but I do like stories like this as it keeps us thinking and going over what ifs in our head and hopefully saves a few planes and lives down the road.
 
Captain Avgas said:
Of course it is also possible that, considering that there were no injuries and the occupants refused any medical treatment, there will be no NTSB report for this accident.
Click to expand...

There will be an NTSB Report because...

"Substantial Damage" means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. NOTE: Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairing or cowling, dented skin, small puncture holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wing tips are not considered "substantial damage" for purposes of this report.
 
A number of years back at midnight in December I was flying from Philly to my home field in TN (OA9). It was terribly cold and I was faced with a headwind of around 70 kts above 10k msl so I was flying around 8.5k msl if I recall. Lower altitude plus headwind = increased fuel burn which I knew. I should have stopped for fuel but didn't. When I got to my home field I was very low on fuel and therefore anxious. I clicked the mic to turn on the light but no lights came on. My field requires a night checkout to go in there at night due to proximity to mountainous terrain. They leave the lights off unless someone who has completed their night checkout has asked them ahead of time to leave them on. This is not notamed but rather in the AFD it stated lighting by prior arrangement. I should have known. Having to divert to my alternate had me further on edge. In the process of diverting I noticed the lights of the alternate which I had in sight became fuzzy and dim. Soon I realized the lights were dim due to trees between me and those lights. I pulled up in time to avoid CFIT. For any of us who are not already aware of this, whenever lights get dim or disappear at night it is a major red flag. Also, the chain of events in an accident are plain to see in my story. Listen to that little copilot whispering in your ear; he might know what he is talking about.
 
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I sure hope Frank understands we all make mistakes. None of us are infallible. None of us are sitting in judgement. Just glad he is alive, and his passengers are fine.

I hope at some point Frank can let us all know how things could have been better, what safety gear he wish he had on the ground, and any other details that might help other survive as they did.

I am just amazed at how the plane held up. Wow.
 
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Its nice that we got a idea of what happened in this accident. The ban on accident discussion on VAF normally prevents any learning points that might preclude a future accident.
In this accident there are a few things to consider. The first one is don't cancel a instrument approach clearance in marginal conditions or at night. Fly the approach to touchdown or a missed approach. Comply with the missed approach procedures to the letter.
The second thing is the incredible displays we can now have on our aircraft. With all the capability comes complexity. I am in the process of upgrading the panel on my aircraft. I am concerned that for the very limited time I ever fly IFR I will not be able to have the needed proficiency to safely fly the aircraft in true IFR conditions. Practice is the key but how many RV owners actually get under a hood and truly practice the procedures on the new displays that might save their life sometime. I suspect its not many. My current setup with a D10 and and 696 plus VOR and ILS is easy to use and provides excellent terrain and obstacle warning. The dual 4500's with a GTN 650 going into the aircraft will add lots of capability but how much of it will I be truly proficient with? I watched a video of a shooting a couple ILS with the sytem and its very involved.
I would add one last point. If your not comfortable hand flying a approach and rely on the autopilot then perhaps you should consider not flying IFR or putting in some serious practice. In the airline industry we refer to it as automation download. When things start going bad sometimes the safest course of action is to start removing automation levels and hand flying the aircraft if needed. Button pushing and programming takes valuable time at critical moments.
Please note that these comments are general in nature looking at this accident but not a direct critique of the pilot. There are always many factors in every accident that form the chain. The key is break the chain at some point and prevent the accident. Discussion of accidents is one way to accomplish that. I have learned a lot over the years from the mistakes of others. I have also learned a lot over the years from my own mistakes. I have been lucky that when they were my own mistakes the chain did get broken at some point and I can talk about it. Open discussion is critical to flight safety.
 
Very happy to hear everyone survived intact.

With three different formats for Lat/Long coordinates there was more than likely an improper conversion or none at all.

I spent three years in that area. College 12 miles outside of Lake Placid and then working in Lake Placid, lots of hiking and backpacking there as well. For those not familiar with the Adirondacks and that area, it is called the High Peaks Region. It is extremely rugged and densely forested. With SAR crews getting to you that same night sounds like they did a tremendous job in spite of having been given the improper coordinates. Typically temps do not get above the 0 deg mark in Jan and Feb can be just as cold. I remember going through a spell of 30deg below 0 days and then we all had fun commenting on the warm day that was 10 below. There is a reason NY State puts their prisons up there.

I think this is a good lesson when flying anywhere it might take some time to find you if you go down is having survival gear with you and clothing that you would be able to walk out with.
 
Happy as well for a nice outcome.

I added an ACK 406 ELT recently to my RV-7A. The GRT EFIS serial connection updates the lat/long in the ELT each second. Identification of the plane, owner and lat/long position sent directly to the satellite and SAR personnel.

All for about $500 and easy install. Hope I never need it but feel good that it is there.
 
Thanks for your candor

You are for ever a safer pilot for having survived this incident.

But each of us will be a little safer for your candor...thanks
 
I don't think there has ever been a ban on accident discussion on this forum. There is a ban on speculating about what happened and what should have happened, what the pilot should or shouldn't have done, or what the pilot did or didn't do prior to the official report being released. Anyone who has access to the official report is welcome to post it. You don't have to wait for Doug or a moderator to post it.

Think about how you would feel if you had an accident and forum members speculated about you. Let the FAA and the pilot tell the whole story and then bring up informed ways about what might be done to prevent accidents.

Roberta
 
robertahegy said:
I don't think there has ever been a ban on accident discussion on this forum. There is a ban on speculating about what happened and what should have happened, what the pilot should or shouldn't have done, or what the pilot did or didn't do prior to the official report being released. Anyone who has access to the official report is welcome to post it. You don't have to wait for Doug or a moderator to post it.

Think about how you would feel if you had an accident and forum members speculated about you. Let the FAA and the pilot tell the whole story and then bring up informed ways about what might be done to prevent accidents.

Roberta
Click to expand...

Sadly those discussions don't seem to come up often. By the time the NTSB puts out its report the accident is long forgotten. As a example someone I know was involved in a accident in GA early last fall. I do watch the NTSB database to see if their is a update and there has been none. When the results are released I doubt they will get posted or even discussed on here. The accident will be long forgotten. If I am involved in a accident I would hope everyone will look at my actions and try and apply those actions to how they fly to prevent a similar accident from happening. Speculation my be incorrect but there is a tremendous wealth of talent on this forum and that speculation might not be correct for that accident but certainly could prevent another accident. I think we are all big boys here and understand that no one has all the answers and speculation might be wrong.
The NTSB reports themselves are often wrong and if you read them you realize that often they did not even go to the accident site. Their results are based on phone interviews. They are way overworked and understaffed. We need to learn from both the actual mistakes we make and the potential mistakes we might make.
George
 
The restrictions (rules) on this forum in regard to accident discussion are most likely a result of the abuses many of us have seen on various forums in years past.

There is well-reasoned speculation, and there is off-the-wall, uninformed speculation. Unfortunately, nearly any discussion of an accident will include both varieties. And even more unfortunately, the specious speculation will often be repeated in the original discussion and then on other forums to the point that it can be accepted as factual by the less informed.

So how do you weed out ridiculous and often agenda-driven speculation in an accident discussion that is unmoderated? You can't. I suspect Doug's concern about his forum being a platform for the launching of erroneous information lead to the establishment of the rules we follow in VAF. Even though some members don't agree with these rules, they have promoted a high level of civility that most members value, and no doubt has lead to VAF being the most widely read aviation forum.

Other forums are available for those who wish to have a non-regulated discussion. But you don't have to read those forums very long before you see why the rules are in place on VAF.
 
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learning from others

Vic and I had a discussion after reading this acct. We now plan to carry our Alaska survival gear in the aircraft as SOP. We tend to get comfortable in our Southeast area travel, but often fly over mountain ranges and swamps enroute to other locales.
 
Sailv767 has some excellent points. As has been previously discussed, as our aircraft become more and more automated it requires pilots to devote more, not less, time to recurrent training.
 
sailvi767 said:
I am concerned that for the very limited time I ever fly IFR I will not be able to have the needed proficiency to safely fly the aircraft in true IFR conditions. Practice is the key but how many RV owners actually get under a hood and truly practice the procedures on the new displays that might save their life sometime. I suspect its not many.... When things start going bad sometimes the safest course of action is to start removing automation levels and hand flying the aircraft if needed. Button pushing and programming takes valuable time at critical moments.
Click to expand...

Really have to differentiate IFR and IMC. IMO one should file IFR often to keep current in switchology and with procedures, etc. There are times I have to force myself into this, as I do not want to add the extra .3-.4 to my flight vs. VFR direct. However, the proficiency and confindence this gives me with my systems and 'the system' is priceless when I'm actually IMC. Yes, sometimes I can tell ATC does not relish me asking for the full approach vs. the visual, but I generally do not fly into places busy enough to matter, and the bottom line is it's for ATC to grant or deny in VMC. Once you are comfortable with all the switchology and develop your new scan, do the same with a safety pilot and the foggles - I don't think you'll find it a huge leap.

Excellent second point. Sometimes the AP disconnect is your best friend. If it ever feels like the airplane is beginning to fly you (lost in menus, behind the curve with button pushing) sometimes the best cure is to disconnect and fly the plane.

***CAVEAT*** This is my opinion and assumes you are transitioning to new equipment - NOT brand new to flying in IMC.
 
BobTurner said:
Sailv767 has some excellent points. As has been previously discussed, as our aircraft become more and more automated it requires pilots to devote more, not less, time to recurrent training.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but the issue as I see it is this;--this thread is about an actual incident, and while some of the details are known, others are not. To discuss the accident without all the facts is where the speculation issue arises.

If someone wishes to discuss in a constructive way the various hazards of highly automated cockpits, or flight into terrain, or most any other scenario, I think it would be best discussed in a separate thread, so please start a new thread to do so.

And, please do not use a new "Discussion" thread to rehash this accident, please build your scenario so it is not a thinly disguised copy of this particular crash.

Thanks,
 
Alaska/Artic Gear

While its difficult to always 'dress to egress' when flying over several varying climates, I know most people carry small survival packs and I'm sure there's been a lot of discussion/debate over what to put in them. One thing I carry with me that I remembered from survival school that had the best bang per buck (weight and volume as well) was a poncho and some sterno cans. A can of sterno is a great fire starter but is even better if you place it between your legs when squatting and wearing a poncho. The sterno will burn for 4-6 hrs if I remember correctly and can raise local temps (inside your poncho) by 20 deg or more. I'm fuzzy on the details (times, temps, core body temps etc) but remember very clearly the appreciated effect after being rainsoaked in a frigid washington winter for a few weeks in the woods. Of course a metal match or lighter is required to get it going, but all in all 1 sterno and poncho per person comes out to be less than a pound per person and would all fit in a freezer bag for a 4 place aircraft. I also carry an MRE and 2 bottles of water per person as well as some other items but I'm sure those preferences are documented in other threads. If people are interested, I'm colocated with the AF survival school and can get a rundown of their suggested personal survival kits which typically contain some of the latest and greatest gadgets as well as old school time tested equipment. Glad to hear everyone made it out ok, it sounds truly miraculous.
 
Yes

RVZoomie said:
..... If people are interested, I'm colocated with the AF survival school and can get a rundown of their suggested personal survival kits which typically contain some of the latest and greatest gadgets as well as old school time tested equipment. .....
Click to expand...

That sounds like a great idea for it's own thread...
 
I applaud Frank for his description of events and am very pleased that everyone will be okay. There's a lot there for everyone to draw from.

I may have missed it, but I'd be interested in how the time interval between the crash and the first responder arrival could have been shortened up. I wonder if Frank has any thoughts on the effectiveness of the tools (406ELT, PLB, APRS, other) in this situation?

Dan
 
Contact approach

One answer to the above post: one of the tools that is almost never used is the contact approach. If an ifr pilot wishes to deviate from the approach procedure and continue on using just visual references he may request a contact approach. The sole advantage is that you are still in the ATC system, and search and rescue will be notified if you fail to arrive and cancel your ifr clearance.
 
sailvi767 said:
Sadly those discussions don't seem to come up often. By the time the NTSB puts out its report the accident is long forgotten. As a example someone I know was involved in a accident in GA early last fall. I do watch the NTSB database to see if their is a update and there has been none. When the results are released I doubt they will get posted or even discussed on here. The accident will be long forgotten. If I am involved in a accident I would hope everyone will look at my actions and try and apply those actions to how they fly to prevent a similar accident from happening. Speculation my be incorrect but there is a tremendous wealth of talent on this forum and that speculation might not be correct for that accident but certainly could prevent another accident. I think we are all big boys here and understand that no one has all the answers and speculation might be wrong.
The NTSB reports themselves are often wrong and if you read them you realize that often they did not even go to the accident site. Their results are based on phone interviews. They are way overworked and understaffed. We need to learn from both the actual mistakes we make and the potential mistakes we might make.
George
Click to expand...

I am with George. I made a few comments which were not a slight on the pilot, they all got removed.

Burying your head in the sand on the pretence that it might upset someone does nothing for safety.

My email was full of praise for some carefully worded now deleted posts. These comments came from folk with many years experience in PNG from GA to jets, plus a few PMs from folk I don't even know. So perhaps people do want to hear discussion even if the theories being discussed are not accurately related to the accident of the day.

Either way I am trying the apathetic approach, but it is hard not to care. Six dead people I knew in the last 12 months, ALL from doing DUMB things, one was even a Qantas pilot.

If I spear in doing something dumb, I hope people discuss it and openly, and someone learns from it. I would hate it to be a waste.

Aviation, like sailing is an unforgiving business. Very safe but it bites if you do not give it the respect it demands. It is not a place for soft fluffy politically correct don't upset anyone kind of behaviour.

[ed. Paragraph regarding management of site removed. dr]

So how about pandering to our hurt feelings. I lost 6 friends, no reports are out yet on any of them but I am not offended by robust discussion on it, but I would be highly offended if someone else was censored while discussing it, because my friends lives were lost for nothing.

[ed. Sentence removed. dr]
 
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BobTurner said:
One answer to the above post: one of the tools that is almost never used is the contact approach. If an ifr pilot wishes to deviate from the approach procedure and continue on using just visual references he may request a contact approach. The sole advantage is that you are still in the ATC system, and search and rescue will be notified if you fail to arrive and cancel your ifr clearance.
Click to expand...

I consider this the, I really have to pee approach

that's the only time I'd consider it versus a normal approach
 
Again,

If it’s a final report from the NTSB (or probable cause document), by all means let’s discuss it and learn from it.

Example of probable cause NTSB RV-8 doc pulled off the NTSB site at random:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110627X62646&key=1

Having said that, until the investigating authorities (and insurance company) are through with their process, I don’t want the speculating here. The physical and/or mental wounds are too fresh for those involved. Thoughts of well wishes and prayer by all means. Speculation, no.

If the urge to speculate is overwhelming, please take it somewhere else online. You have dozens, if not hundreds, of choices.

PLEASE have the courtesy to respect my wishes while on my site - I would extend the same while on yours.

br,
dr
 
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Regarding what to wear/carry as survival gear, a local pilot told me that his rule is to dress as though he were going to have to walk home... From wherever he landed. It's enough to think about that to choose what you might want to have with you, or better yet be wearing, when you're out and about on a cross-country.
 
"I consider this the, I really have to pee approach

that's the only time I'd consider it versus a normal approach"

I totally agree, and did not mean to suggest otherwise.
 
60av8tor said:
Really have to differentiate IFR and IMC. IMO one should file IFR often to keep current in switchology and with procedures, etc. There are times I have to force myself into this, as I do not want to add the extra .3-.4 to my flight vs. VFR direct. However, the proficiency and confindence this gives me with my systems and 'the system' is priceless when I'm actually IMC. Yes, sometimes I can tell ATC does not relish me asking for the full approach vs. the visual, but I generally do not fly into places busy enough to matter, and the bottom line is it's for ATC to grant or deny in VMC. Once you are comfortable with all the switchology and develop your new scan, do the same with a safety pilot and the foggles - I don't think you'll find it a huge leap.

Excellent second point. Sometimes the AP disconnect is your best friend. If it ever feels like the airplane is beginning to fly you (lost in menus, behind the curve with button pushing) sometimes the best cure is to disconnect and fly the plane.

***CAVEAT*** This is my opinion and assumes you are transitioning to new equipment - NOT brand new to flying in IMC.
Click to expand...

This is some of the best advice I have seen on this forum for those desiring to get, and stay, proficient at IFR operations in their airplane. It is not easy, in fact it is hard, to stay proficient unless you are doing it day in and day out, and single pilot IFR/IMC is one of the most demanding tasks any of us will encounter in aviation.
 
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AF survival

RVZoomie said:
While its difficult to always 'dress to egress' when flying over several varying climates, I know most people carry small survival packs and I'm sure there's been a lot of discussion/debate over what to put in them. One thing I carry with me that I remembered from survival school that had the best bang per buck (weight and volume as well) was a poncho and some sterno cans. A can of sterno is a great fire starter but is even better if you place it between your legs when squatting and wearing a poncho. The sterno will burn for 4-6 hrs if I remember correctly and can raise local temps (inside your poncho) by 20 deg or more. I'm fuzzy on the details (times, temps, core body temps etc) but remember very clearly the appreciated effect after being rainsoaked in a frigid washington winter for a few weeks in the woods. Of course a metal match or lighter is required to get it going, but all in all 1 sterno and poncho per person comes out to be less than a pound per person and would all fit in a freezer bag for a 4 place aircraft. I also carry an MRE and 2 bottles of water per person as well as some other items but I'm sure those preferences are documented in other threads. If people are interested, I'm colocated with the AF survival school and can get a rundown of their suggested personal survival kits which typically contain some of the latest and greatest gadgets as well as old school time tested equipment. Glad to hear everyone made it out ok, it sounds truly miraculous.
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Please do,this is some great stuff.Start a new thread on AF school info.
 
Brad, not taking sides, but just showing how different people can interpret speculating. A quote from your above post, " If this accident was not equipment related, then you'll probably be fine going out there and being a disiplined pilot". From this statement I feel you are speculating that the accident pilot was not disiplined as his aircraft wasn't fine.
 
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