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RV-6A noseover video...

aero_tango

Active Member
Just found this video published few days ago.
The RV6A nosewheel was damaged from a previous hard landing. Pilot came back for landing with the nosewheel completely folded...not a good ending for the plane but luckily, the pilot escape with no injuries.

http://youtu.be/1sgPXFE114g
 
I've wondered if kicking full rudder just before going over to induce a ground loop and prevent the nose over. Just a thought, any comments?
 
That is what I worry about.... ALL THE TIME! Luckily, he walked away.
 
Agreed, I would assume since it was grass field, he hit hard and dug in, noticed it and went around... but it was a little to late. Looked like a nice RV.
 
There have been 3 "A" model RV's flip in the Indianapolis area,all on grass strips. Despite their directional control issues there have been no tail wheel RV's flip during the same period of time.

The soft field technique,with a nose wheel RV, must be proper to avoid issues. Stiffeners and anti dig in shoes are probably of help.

Just like tail wheels; nose wheels have operational issues that need to be trained for in an attempt to avoid problems.
 
By no means would I consider myself an RV pilot yet (builder yes), but based on my training, research and talking to well known RV pilot on here I know when it comes times to fly my A model, EVERY landing will be treated at soft field. Not just some.

Last April I went down and spent some time with Patty Wagstaff and Alan at her school. Obviously tail wheel aircraft, but Alan was quick to tell me it didn't matter where the 3rd wheel was, the stick should be back anytime the plane was on the ground. He was quick to point at another airplane taxing and you could see the "yoke" in their case was forward based on the elevator, and you could see the front wheel strut partially collapsed due to that. That advise although I knew from reading about RV's struck me as it doesn't matter what plane your in.
 
. . .Alan was quick to tell me it didn't matter where the 3rd wheel was, the stick should be back anytime the plane was on the ground. . .That advise although I knew from reading about RV's struck me as it doesn't matter what plane your in.
If there is anything any new RV-A model pilot should hold dear to their heart it should be these words of wisdom!

Whenever on the ground, pull the stick into your gut and hold it there until the the plane comes to a complete stop or until the wheels leave the ground. There are circumstances where quartering winds may require some other inputs. Outside of those specific situations however, keep the stick pulled back and one will go a long way toward protecting the nose wheel.
 
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that plane was going over.. nothing he could do about it...

I agree it was almost hopeless, Radomir. It might've been "textbook" to pull mixture to ICO at touchdown (no go-around option but no running prop-strike) and to dump flaps, but that's a handful of extra work when trying to get the gentlest possible nosewheel contact at the lowest possible speed. A paved runway if available would certainly have been my choice.

The one thing you do have time to do is cinch the belt and shoulder straps TIGHT. Chuck Hagerty and others have learned the painful way how vulnerable our C-spines are in a nose-over at low speed.

So glad this pilot walked away.

I can hear me now on the cell phone, circling in the pattern, "Jenny, I'd like to increase my ground not-in-motion coverage to full hull at $50k! Can you bind it like right now?" :eek:
 
I can hear me now on the cell phone, circling in the pattern, "Jenny, I'd like to increase my ground not-in-motion coverage to full hull at $50k! Can you bind it like right now?" :eek:

Unfortunately I think this would be considered "in motion".
 
I think the best mitigation is to remove the nose gear, move the mains forward to a position ahead of the CG and put a little wheel below the rudder ;)

And yes, I guess this constitutes kicking a guy when he is (upside) down, which is bad form, so I hope it is not taken too seriously. I do feel bad for him. That would really suck especially if he built the airplane. And he lives near me so he could come and punch me in the nose, which I hope he doesn't.
 
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I couldn't tell from the video whether or not he had an anti-splat nose job installed. Can anyone else tell (or does somebody know)?
 
I couldn't tell from the video whether or not he had an anti-splat nose job installed. Can anyone else tell (or does somebody know)?

Doesn't look like it.

Blow up the video and you can see the remains of most of the gear leg fairing hanging - and trailing - just under the exhaust pipes. The bent leg looks "naked" with nothing attached to it.
 
By no means would I consider myself an RV pilot yet (builder yes), but based on my training, research and talking to well known RV pilot on here I know when it comes times to fly my A model, EVERY landing will be treated at soft field. Not just some.

...

With all due respect, Jeff, you are being far too paranoid and giving all A models a bad name. I have been fly a nose dragger 6 since 2002, for 10 years without an anti-splat. Mostly its entirely routine. Grass field landings are not a big deal. I have landed on some rough grass fields and am still on my first nose-leg. Yes, by all means treat the airplane like a taildragger that happens to park itself level. But there is no need to become paranoid about every landing. Touching down on the mains every time will keep your stress levels low. I have touched the tail more times than I have landed nosewheel first.
 
With all due respect, Jeff, you are being far too paranoid and giving all A models a bad name. I have been fly a nose dragger 6 since 2002, for 10 years without an anti-splat. Mostly its entirely routine. Grass field landings are not a big deal. I have landed on some rough grass fields and am still on my first nose-leg. Yes, by all means treat the airplane like a taildragger that happens to park itself level. But there is no need to become paranoid about every landing. Touching down on the mains every time will keep your stress levels low. I have touched the tail more times than I have landed nosewheel first.

Cautious yes, not sure on paranoid though as I am building an A model myself and not scared of it, or flying in an A model.

I don't think its just Vans models any nose wheel just needs to be landed properly regardless of who or how its made.
 
Do not believe that the Ant-Splat is a guarantee that all will be well.
I had the anti-splat on my nose gear and I turned it upside down. Nose wheel buckled anyway. It might have helped in a different situation. I did not get hurt either, for which I a thankful.
Dave.
 
I think that all pilots should land a taildragger in a 3 point attitude until that sight picture is embedded in their memory. This is the landing attitude that we strive for in all of the planes we fly with a nose gear. Our last RV6A had over 500 hours on the front tire. Jm2cw
 
Stiffener?

I couldn't tell from the video whether or not he had an anti-splat nose job installed. Can anyone else tell (or does somebody know)?



Here is an enlarged and cropped image from the video. This item was hanging off near the base of the cowl near the nose gear leg. It falls off prior to the aircraft flipping. Looks like some sort of stiffener to me. You can also see something on gear leg that is not the same color as the gear leg. Could this be where the item was attached? Obvously the gear leg fairing is missing in the image. Either not installed or broke off.

Food for thought
 
I am far from an expert, but thought I would pass along a learning. I routinely hold my nosewheel off on take offs and landings. One thing that I noticed early on is that if the flaps are left out during roll out, the nose wheel comes down quickly. I now retract the flaps once I am on the ground and slowing with the nosewheel still in the air. By doing this, the nose will quickly point up and you have to ease the stick forward a bit to maintain a reasoable AOA. Then modulate to keep the wheel off the ground. This lets me keep the front wheel of the ground for quite a long roll and my nose hits the ground at a noticeably slower speed than with the flaps out. It also provide aerodynamic braking.

While this isn't necessary for a normal landing, it will help you reduce your speed at the nosewheel touchdown in a bad situation, such as an off field landing. My logic is that the slower you are going when the nose wheel digs into a rut in corn field the less velocity involved in the ensuing flip.

Larry
 
retract flaps on landing roll

That's interesting. Never thought of doing that. Anyone else retract their flaps on the landing roll?
 
That's interesting. Never thought of doing that. Anyone else retract their flaps on the landing roll?

Yep, manual flaps raised in an instant, as soon as the mains are down. Took this good advice from Mel.
 
One would have to wonder what if he landed the plane on asphalt or concrete runway? I don't think it would have flipped. Also why would you not shut the engine off and try to horizontal the prop before landing. Just asking.
 
go around

One would have to wonder what if he landed the plane on asphalt or concrete runway? I don't think it would have flipped. Also why would you not shut the engine off and try to horizontal the prop before landing. Just asking.
I'd probably keep it running in case of a go around. You're going to need to inspect the crank no matter what if the prop touches anything.

I agree asphalt or concrete would probably have been better, but the pilot said he was not aware that he had a nose wheel issue when he landed, or he probably would have diverted to a longer hard surface runway.
 
One would have to wonder what if he landed the plane on asphalt or concrete runway? I don't think it would have flipped. Also why would you not shut the engine off and try to horizontal the prop before landing. Just asking.

The 3 bladed prop might make that tough.
 


Here is an enlarged and cropped image from the video. This item was hanging off near the base of the cowl near the nose gear leg. It falls off prior to the aircraft flipping. Looks like some sort of stiffener to me. You can also see something on gear leg that is not the same color as the gear leg. Could this be where the item was attached? Obvously the gear leg fairing is missing in the image. Either not installed or broke off.

Food for thought

Might be a wooden stiffener but I don't think it is the antisplat gizmo. The antisplat is tapered on the ends/fatter in the middle.
 
Anti splat

I think I disagree with statement that it didn't work or help There may have been a violent crash when the initial bending occurred without the brace.
 


Here is an enlarged and cropped image from the video. This item was hanging off near the base of the cowl near the nose gear leg. It falls off prior to the aircraft flipping. Looks like some sort of stiffener to me. You can also see something on gear leg that is not the same color as the gear leg. Could this be where the item was attached? Obvously the gear leg fairing is missing in the image. Either not installed or broke off.

Food for thought

It's not the Anti-Splat gear mod. The ASA attaches at the mid point of the stiffener; the frame grab appears to show that the "stiffener" has one attach point near the cowling. Maybe it is a vibration dampener?
 
Looks like an anti splat in this image, doesn't look like it helps the outcome any...

Th1YsDK.jpg

And in this image / perspective it does look like the ASA mod... Maybe two different parts? Or what was left of the fairing?
 
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I get the impression from many posts over the last couple of years that many folks think that the AS leg stiffener is going to solve all their problems on A models. It isn't. If you bent the leg like this and land on even slightly rough grass, almost certainly the airplane will flip.

If you hit a big rodent hole even at a moderate taxi speed, you're also likely to severely damage the support structure or flip too.

The AS device will give you a bit more margin in certain scenarios but ultimately if you put a couple thousand pounds of force backwards on the leg, it's going to bend at the engine mount support anyway.

I also see posts where people believe holding the stick full aft will have any useful effect below 20 knots with no propwash over the elevator. While it's good technique to do so, you won't even take 50 pounds off the nose gear. That's not going to save you either if you hit a hole or asphalt ledge of some sort.

Even with the best technique, if you fly off grass long enough, you could have a bad day hitting something higher than the tire to leg end clearance.


[ed. I agree! If the technique is off, no hardware is going to keep you right side up. Here's an AS from a noseover event (not the one discussed here). Just making the point that technique is the #1 determining aspect of staying upright: v/r,dr

bending.jpg


 
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...Even with the best technique, if you fly off grass long enough, you could have a bad day hitting something higher than the tire to leg end clearance.

And being aware of where the CG is at the end of a flight is extremely important, too.
 
Maybe better than its reputation

First post on any forum ever....Hope it works and that I do not breach any VAF rules.
At the beginning of building my RV9A I had absolutely no idea the nose gear could fold up, ending in a flip over. Once I found out I started to read all available accident reports, videos on Utube and discussions on VAF.
Over the years it has brought me from a happy builder, over despair and all kind of plans to mitigate the risk. The more I studied the subject the more convinced I was that I - with my moderate flying skills - will end up inverted.

Well much to my surprise it has not happened - yet.....I hope I am not committing hubris though.

One of the very first things i did was adding a camera under the wing to see all 3 wheels, in order trying to describe the dynamics involved in the nose wheel oscillating. This turned out to be too complicated for me, but I did develop a sort confidence in the design, and certainly found a number of bad habits and things not to do.

I have only operated on relatively even and level surfaces. I am still convinced that if the NW falls into a pothole or meet an obstacle higher than a couple of inch the gear will dig in.

As other and new builders of A models may be going through the same despair as I did.. I thought I would make my video available for all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr92SjkTynA

It comes with a warning: It is extremely boring and have no entertainment value at all, but if it provides peace of mind for anyone then its worth the 18 min of NW oscillation.

What surprised me the most is the last sequence of the video, where the plane actually lift of - just a few inches - and then lands on the NW without me noticing it - until second landing.

So it seems Scott was right in his reply 8 years ago: "Fly with confidence"
......And perhaps the design is better than its reputation?
Best regards
Lasse
 
First post on any forum ever....Hope it works and that I do not breach any VAF rules.
At the beginning of building my RV9A I had absolutely no idea the nose gear could fold up, ending in a flip over. Once I found out I started to read all available accident reports, videos on Utube and discussions on VAF.
Over the years it has brought me from a happy builder, over despair and all kind of plans to mitigate the risk. The more I studied the subject the more convinced I was that I - with my moderate flying skills - will end up inverted.

Well much to my surprise it has not happened - yet.....I hope I am not committing hubris though.

One of the very first things i did was adding a camera under the wing to see all 3 wheels, in order trying to describe the dynamics involved in the nose wheel oscillating. This turned out to be too complicated for me, but I did develop a sort confidence in the design, and certainly found a number of bad habits and things not to do.

I have only operated on relatively even and level surfaces. I am still convinced that if the NW falls into a pothole or meet an obstacle higher than a couple of inch the gear will dig in.

As other and new builders of A models may be going through the same despair as I did.. I thought I would make my video available for all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr92SjkTynA

It comes with a warning: It is extremely boring and have no entertainment value at all, but if it provides peace of mind for anyone then its worth the 18 min of NW oscillation.

What surprised me the most is the last sequence of the video, where the plane actually lift of - just a few inches - and then lands on the NW without me noticing it - until second landing.

So it seems Scott was right in his reply 8 years ago: "Fly with confidence"
......And perhaps the design is better than its reputation?
Best regards
Lasse

I'd love to watch the video, but the link doesn't work. Do you still have your RV-9? Your signature suggests you donated it?
 
Probably a dumb question, but I've seen taildragger pilots keep the tail lifted with throttle and elevator while holding the brakes. In the case of a damaged nose wheel, would there be any benefit to applying throttle and brake with full up elevator before the nose starts to drop?
 
Probably a dumb question, but I've seen taildragger pilots keep the tail lifted with throttle and elevator while holding the brakes. In the case of a damaged nose wheel, would there be any benefit to applying throttle and brake with full up elevator before the nose starts to drop?

Not a dumb question at all. The elevator is always already full up, and the throttle is yet another tool available to fully manage the precise time, place, and rate of nosewheel touchdown. Use all tools at your disposal at the appropriate time.
 
Probably a dumb question, but I've seen taildragger pilots keep the tail lifted with throttle and elevator while holding the brakes. In the case of a damaged nose wheel, would there be any benefit to applying throttle and brake with full up elevator before the nose starts to drop?

Not a dumb question. With the main gear on the A model much further back, the moment arm for the elevator to act on around the pivot point (the wheels) is much shorter... You may have a lot less control authority to keep the nose up with. Also, with the gear behind the CG on the A model, you have the weight of the aircraft working against you as well.
 
Anti-spalt installed

Just to clear it up: this plane had the antisplat installed..

G-CCVS Youtube

I know because the wreck is in my garage..

Cheers
Lars J
 
RV-4 w/nose gear?

Maybe not at your airport, but there was just one yesterday.....

https://www.facebook.com/LyonCountyNV/posts/1823864054292217


The NTSB investigator's analysis was a bit off related to this RV-4 loss of control nose over.

Analysis: "The pilot of the tailwheel-equipped airplane reported that, during landing, the airplane bounced. On the third bounce, the airplane veered off the runway to the left, the nosewheel impacted a sandbar, and the airplane nosed over".

Doug Lomheim
RV-9A FWF
RV-3A Sold
 
Just to clear it up: this plane had the antisplat installed..

G-CCVS Youtube

I know because the wreck is in my garage..

Cheers
Lars J

..The "Nose Job" installed on this aircraft, suffered a severe
impact on one of the prior landing attempts, that was violent
enough to defeat it, and the gear leg as well. At that point
it became a non factor, and couldn't help prevent this nose
over (as nothing is indestructible!). In the situation he was
in, most likely the better choice would always be a paved
or concrete runway surface. The nose gear assembly would
just slide and grind along to a stop, and the nose over would
be extremely unlikely. Nose overs of most any type aircraft
just don't occur on improved surfaces. Thanks, Allan..:eek:
 
boring NOT

The timely video is a great tool. I would not have posted the text comments right when the nose touches.... I had to rewind many times and attend to the nose. It is like having subtitles on an English movie. I can't help but read them anyway.
BUT.... the detailed view of the assembly behavior is priceless. I can feel all that I saw in your video, in my 9A. Just can't see it. On your inadvertent liftoff... I don't think it was all that bad. Slight vibration fore and aft. But, I agree, it is to be avoided. I find it hard that the original crash pilot did not know what damage was done on the first attempt. It HAD to be felt through the airframe. I would have had some friends look it over before I landed again.
And as Alan mentioned... some pavement would have been nice.
 
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