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Formation in a RV-14 question

Av8rRob

Well Known Member
So, I started doing some formation flying with my -14 and got a chance to fly with an -8 today. Here was the issue, at the perch on a decending turn to final I could not match his deceleration rate. I felt like at idle with the prop full forward he could slow way faster than I could. So my question for those more experienced than I in formation......what am I missing here? My plane, rv-14 io-390 with cs blended hartzell prop. His, rv-8, io-370 with cs whirlwind prop. One technique I learned was to slip the aircraft for deceleration. He mentioned that maybe I could lower my idle speed (currently it is approximately 870-900 on the ground).

Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
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Formation

We had a few at our last formation clinic and they performed fine. Like Ax O said you have to use a little lag. Not sure if you have been to a formation clinic yet, but yes extended trail is fun! However the primary purpose is to learn how to lead and lag to hold the spacing without touching the power. Lower rpm for idle is not the answer and is probably not best for your engine. Get a Flight Lead to take you out and work on that- have fun too. Remember Good formation is precision, being able to put your machine in the space it needs to be. No one said it was easy and does not require practice. Good luck and remember you can always go to the FFI.aero website for information. Keep flying Formation!
 
Yes, Im doing the advanced formation clinic with the Beech Boys (so mainly bonanzas and some mooneys). My problem was in the element landings because Im trying to hold position on his wing yet he slows down so much faster than my plane. I did go a bit wide (being on the outside of the turn) to help out from being too acute.
 
The lighter weight Whirlwind composite prop decelerates much faster than the aluminum Hartzell.
 
Is the whirlwind 2 or 3 blades?

I would think a 3 blade prop would have more drag and braking.
 
I fly a 9A in formation on a regular basis. It took several flights to learn a technique to get down and land at 1k foot mark, but at this point I am doing it fairly well consistently At first several go around happened. If flying with someone new, we do brief whoever is behind me that their sight picture may be different following the 9.

I would imagine 14 could have similar changes.

I don't have any advise on element landing yet.
 
Ok, I'll ask.........

(After stating that I haven't flown for years and have low single digit formation time)


Assuming the Flight Leader is the RV8:

When maneuvering, shouldn't the flight leader take into consideration the flight capabilities of the other aircraft? i.e. my aircraft slows down faster....
 
Ok, I'll ask.........

(After stating that I haven't flown for years and have low single digit formation time)


Assuming the Flight Leader is the RV8:

When maneuvering, shouldn't the flight leader take into consideration the flight capabilities of the other aircraft? i.e. my aircraft slows down faster....
Yes the lead is the rv-8 and he has a 2 blade ww.

Yes you are correct, we did talk about it after the first attempt and Im sure we could work out the issue to an acceptable solution if we continued (only flew two flights together). Im just curious on how to justify the difference between the two aircraft.

A few questions for the RV formation guys, do you normally fly element landings?
If so what speeds do you aim for on your downwind to final turn?
Thanks again
 
Yes, Im doing the advanced formation clinic with the Beech Boys (so mainly bonanzas and some mooneys). My problem was in the element landings because Im trying to hold position on his wing yet he slows down so much faster than my plane. I did go a bit wide (being on the outside of the turn) to help out from being too acute.

Lead should use partial flaps initially and gentle power reductions. In all my time flying formation a good lead can make all the difference. Just my opinion but I don’t think your planes are that different.
 
When you're at the firewall and lead is walking away from you, you ask lead to slow down (in a 150HP RV-6 flying with a Rocket, I do this a lot...). Ditto on the slow end, if he's slowed down faster/farther than you can, ask him to speed up.
 
A good flight lead should never go to idle, as -2 always needs to have more drag available for corrections. If the airplanes are perfectly matched, and lead goes to idle, there is no way for -2 to correct an acute position. RV’s have enough drag to slow to landing speed above idle, but it takes some planning.

On a formation landing, typically this requires a wider, shallower pattern than we normally fly in our RV’s.

My first guess is to chalk this up to flight lead technique. In the jets one of the first things we need to teach new leads is not to use above 92-94% on climbout (depending on how many wingmen you have) and not to use less than 72-74% on descent. Otherwise your wingmen will be using afterburner / speedbrake to try and stay with you. Same applies to RV’s, but with fewer tools to fix it.
 
Element landings are a true test of lead skills, especially with mixed equipment. My objective is a smooth continuous descent to the precision approach aiming marks.
I shoot for a 500 fpm descent rate at 80-90mph starting at the perch and all the way to the flare. This seems to keep everyone I fly with comfortably in their envelope. Less fpm is okay, more is bad. Lead should never be at idle until the flair. You really "fly" to the landing. And, as others have said, it is a wider/longer pattern than the normal formation recovery.

Lead has to practice this, especially if they are a "go flat pitch and dive for the numbers" type. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a surprised look from a newbie lead when I'm at idle, full flaps, and going sideways looking at them on final with a "I've got nothing left except the anchor!" look.

I always request/remind lead "500fpm" if we are briefing a formation landing. If you're a lead and can't do this, go out and practice solo until you can.
 
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lead

I was the lead for Rob on these two flights- so, yes, no doubt my technique could have been better and made things easier for him.

That said- I never got close to idle power, and don't think power reductions were unreasonably aggressive and we were not slow! On our second flight I was much more deliberate about making more gradual power reductions, which worked better, but Rob still had trouble matching.

My prop is a WW RV74, which I've found does decelerate even more aggressively than my previous WW 200RV.
 
It's up to lead...

A good lead will consider the skill of his wingman and the capabilities of his wingman's airplane. This is most important during formation aerobatics as well as formation landings where the extreme edges of the flight envelope are approached. During the descent for the formation landing the leader should never use full flaps, never be at full idle and flatten the approach so that more power is required to stay on the descent to the runway. For a turning descent to final the wingman should be on the outside of the turn unless crosswinds are a factor, in which case the wingman should be on the upwind side during landing to avoid having to deal with leader's wing wash and the tendency to weathervane into the wind during rollout.

Not sure I understand the comments here about "lead" and "lag" during a formation approach. If the wingman is so far out that lead and lag come into play this is hardly a formation approach. While power differences from the leader are an issue during turns, this can be minimized by maintaining a tight position on lead. Power differential is most evident during formation aerobatics where the boundaries of the flight envelope are closely approached. A tight formation will minimize the power differential required. You may even see wing overlap during aggressive aerobatic formation flight.

Lead and lag play a huge part in extended trail formation and power differential is hardly an issue. That's what makes trail so much fun!
 
Chalk this up as a learning experience!

I was the lead for Rob on these two flights- so, yes, no doubt my technique could have been better and made things easier for him.

That said- I never got close to idle power, and don't think power reductions were unreasonably aggressive and we were not slow! On our second flight I was much more deliberate about making more gradual power reductions, which worked better, but Rob still had trouble matching.

My prop is a WW RV74, which I've found does decelerate even more aggressively than my previous WW 200RV.

There are replies here from a bunch of folks with a LOT of RV formation experience. Every flight is a learning experience and those of us who have many hundreds of hours of RV formation and formation acro experience look at every flight as such.
Basically what all the responses here are saying is your different props had nothing to do with his problems.
Keep practicing and remember it's a whole lot harder to fly lead than wing.
Have fun out there..
 
The old saying that a wingman should never open his mouth except to say "you're on fire" or "break left/right" will also include "give me a couple" when the lead is having an issue ...

Not allowing your wingy to stay in position due to performance is the Lead's issue :cool:
 
The old saying that a wingman should never open his mouth except to say "you're on fire" or "break left/right" will also include "give me a couple" when the lead is having an issue .

And don't forget the wingman's obligation to his leader at the bar: "I'll take the fat one." :D
 
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