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Close call video

rv8ch

Well Known Member
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https://youtu.be/f4T0utYN1pY

Flying along today, fat, dumb, and happy, looking at balloons flying in the area. Was heading west at 4500 ft then decided to change directions to the north east, and initiated a climb to 5500 ft. Crossing about 5000 ft almost got smacked by someone coming in the other direction. Happens at about 25 seconds into the video. No doubt they could not see me due to the sun right in their eyes. I saw them, but just kind of "deer in the headlights" for a second or two, then instinctively turned a bit to the left, but they were not going to hit me in any case. Not sure if my lizard brain said "no threat, nothing to do" and then when I started processing how close we would pass, I just moved the stick left, or what. Felt pretty strange, and really going to push me to get some kind of traffic warning, add ADS-B and FLARM. This area is a "choke point" in the country, so there is a lot of traffic on the weekends. I usually try to fly during the week when it's quiet, but a combination of shorter days and more early and late meetings at work has made this difficult.
 
Hi Mickey
Nice to see you were able to fly today... being stuck in the fog just some 130NM NE of your field :(

Not sure about my eyes anymore, nor the 25“ frame encounter, which I can’t visualize.

Nevertheless I have been using the Flarm system (European traffic information system, most of the sailplanes, choppers, and even paragliders are equipped with) for almost 10 years now, and yes, I’m a believer :) The device might have saved my bacon for at least 3 times by now...
Traffic on nice days is pretty hi inside the restricted airspace around here. Most pilots nowadays prefer to try to understand what their elec gizmos are doing, play airline or Star Wars pilot, head down, iso watching the surrounding airspace...

My own ship sports Powerflarm, ADSB in/out, + a pair of mark X eyeballs to hopefully scan the skies for any intruder.
 
Fog

We were right on the edge of the fog - towards the north it was solid, but from about LSGY south it was pretty open.

I think the video will get clearer when it processes the higher resolution version.

To see frame by frame, go to about 30 seconds, touch pause. Then touch your . (period) key and it will move one frame forward. , (comma) key gives you one frame back.

Spooky Close Call - HB-YMM - 20201031.png
 
I bet that ADS-B won't catch everyone. I have that plus an old Xaon unit that reads transponders and it picks up more than ADS-B does out here. Still, it's worth having to warn those people who fly head's down in oblivious mode.

Dave
 
ADS-B is worth every penny but still does not/should not be replaced by "see and avoid". Plenty of non-ADS-B airplanes out there without it, or with Mode S, or an electrical system even. I continue to be amazed as a former professional pilot all the traffic I didn't see when I was flying heavy's. Big sky, little airplane-not so much! I'm always extra spidey when I am flying aerobatics in my box. Nobody says they can't be there. Y'all be careful out there!
 
ADS-B has already become a crutch and a downfall for GA. I stay well outside of rule airspace. Yet, you'd think a lot of GA pilots I have to mix with getting in and out of my home drome don't even bother looking outside for aircraft that aren't on their computer screens.
 
ADS-B is worth every penny but still does not/should not be replaced by "see and avoid". Plenty of non-ADS-B airplanes out there without it, or with Mode S, or an electrical system even.

Agreed

I live in a very "anti-government" part of the country and I can't even describe to you how many times I have seen transponders turned off, kept off, and talked about at the breakfast table... I love ADSB but I certainly don't feel safe relying on it.
 
Mickey,
I just loaded a FS: Zaon MRX Portable Collision Avoidance System (PCAS).
I have ADSB In/Out, and thought I didn't need it anymore. However reading some of the above comments make me think I should hold on to it. :)
Let me know if interested.
 
I wonder whether it would be possible to augment see-and-avoid with a stereo vision system that can track and highlight potential threats.
 
AR glasses

I wonder whether it would be possible to augment see-and-avoid with a stereo vision system that can track and highlight potential threats.
Google's "glass" was an interesting step into the "augmented reality" direction. I hear that Apple will create one "soon", and since Facebook bought Oculus my guess is that they will also get into this business. I am sure this will be an extremely huge business in the coming years. We've all been seeing this kind of thing in scifi books and movies for decades, and the technology is finally going to allow it soon.

When I fly my DCS World flight simulator with oculus VR goggles, it clearly shows targets at any distance, and it's extremely useful and non-intrusive. I'm sure that the AR glasses will allow the same thing.

The challenge then will be to somehow get the information to the AR glasses. Clearly they will use whatever type of electronic conspicuity is available (transponder/ADS-B/Flarm/PilotAware), enhanced with hi-res cameras that look in all spectrums, not just visible. This should help situational awareness a lot.
 
With stereo headsets, you could have a system that gives audible warning of range and position.

The stereo part gives you left/right. Range either volume or frequency.
 
The challenge then will be to somehow get the information to the AR glasses.

I had in mind having the stereo cameras doing the looking - i.e. a camera (or a few) on each wingtip with some video image processing to pick out potential threats.

Of course there is the problem that the genuine threat will always be stationary relative to the aircraft but not relative to the background scenery.
 
Turkey Buzzards

Here in Texas there are a lot of 10 pound + birds that do not have ADSB. You better be looking outside all of the time that you can!
 
“You bet your life”

I fly a corporate aircraft equipped with all the bells and whistles now required by Uncle Sugar, and I guarantee you it doesn’t show all the traffic. Been IFR many times and ATC calls traffic that is also IFR and they don’t show up on ADSB or TCAS. LOOK OUT THE WINDOW folks. All this magic is neat but don’t play “you bet your life” with it.
 
Mickey,
I just loaded a FS: Zaon MRX Portable Collision Avoidance System (PCAS).
I have ADSB In/Out, and thought I didn't need it anymore. However reading some of the above comments make me think I should hold on to it. :)
Let me know if interested.

Adsb should give you all traffic that has mode C that is turned on. However it won’t give you moda A traffic. The zaon will help with that. Only radar can identify traffic with no transponder output and the adsb stream will not include this traffic, even though there system sees it.
 
See and Avoid

I am amazed at the aircraft ADSB says is there that I cannot see with my eyes. I have deviated several times just to be safe.
 
I am amazed at the aircraft ADSB says is there that I cannot see with my eyes. I have deviated several times just to be safe.

And I've seen Barons, Citations, and a Lear *under* the MSP Class B that never showed up on either of the ADS-B displays in the cockpit. As Jerry pointed out above, look outside.

If ADS-B claims something is there, something is probably there. But if ADS-B says there isn't anything there...look, because there might still be something there.
 
Ever notice how EVERYONE flies at 500' +- altitudes... ?
Except... Those people who have thought about it and fly with no transponder at +/-250'. And those who think +/- 150' is better because they can avoid the people at +/-250'.

When we start second-guessing the recommended altitudes, we'll end up with a furball. At least if everyone is supposed to be at 500' intervals we know where to look.
 
For RV8JD Post 9

"""And BTW, I love Garmin's Target Trend vectors. They are extremely helpful in showing the relative track of traffic in relation to your airplane."""

Hi Carl. Look at your own "Target Trend Vector. See, at your 5 O'clock position N2261T? See how the target trend vector is maybe 45* to the left of the nose of the airplane arrow? This doesn't make sense to me. The crosswind can't be "that" strong. I had called Garmin trying to understand this about a year ago, but they didn't understand it either.
 
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I fly with Stratus/Foreflight/iPad and it alerts me to traffic. Recently I installed a Garmin GTR200B so now I can hear the "Traffic" alerts in my headset rather then just see them on the iPad. I'm happy.
 
Agreed

I live in a very "anti-government" part of the country and I can't even describe to you how many times I have seen transponders turned off, kept off, and talked about at the breakfast table... I love ADSB but I certainly don't feel safe relying on it.

Some people are willing to cut their nose to spite the face
 
Hi Don,

It doesn't have anything to do with crosswinds. The Garmin algorithm takes your airplane’s ground speed and track, and the target’s ground speed and track, and does the vector math to calculate the resultant Target Trend vector. The Target Trend vector shows where the target will be in the future with respect to your airplane. If the "Target Trend” line is aimed at your airplane, the target is a possible threat depending on its altitude.

In the example you mentioned, I'm faster than that target, N2261T, (and he is angled slightly away from me), so the Target Trend vector shows he will pass well behind me. Due to our relative speeds and tracks, I'm moving away from him. Our closure rate is slightly negative, i.e., we are getting farther apart.

Here is an example of why I like Garmin’s Target Trend vector for collision avoidance. A few months ago I flew down to see the Mosier Creek Fire between Hood River and The Dalles. I was flying southbound at 9,500’ just to the east of Seattle's Class B. On the Aera 660’s traffic page I noted a Horizon Dash 8 (that had taken off to the north from SeaTac) climbing out to the east headed in my direction and climbing.

The Target Trend vector showed that he would pass about a mile or so behind me. And since he was climbing, I judged he would be near my altitude at about that time. I decided not to take any action and just watch his progress toward me, which was pretty fast (about a 305 KT closure rate). He also didn’t appear to change direction. I saw him visually when he was about 3 or 4 miles to the west of me due to his landing lights being on. I did rock my wings when he got closer. Who knows if he saw it.

Without the Target Trend vector I would have been in the dark regarding whether he was a real threat or not, based on his track over the ground (the way his triangle symbol was pointed).

Below are sequential screenshots of that Dash 8 (QXE2407) encounter from the Aera 660’s Traffic Page. Note that the end of the target trend line represents where the Dash 8 (QXE2407) will be in relation to my airplane in 60 seconds.

i-8z8PwMT-L.jpg
i-cq2KgT6-L.jpg


i-mBKpj58-L.jpg
i-Tvj7S9k-L.jpg



Here is a Garmin video on the subject: https://youtu.be/SIe4A-NKtN8

Hope that helps.

I think I understand. Mine is Garmin pilot on a tablet, not a 660. But my target trend lines don't reach like on yours from 6 miles away to just behind your plane. I "think" there's some sort of adjustment, but I can't remember if its for the length of a target trend line or something else. I'll just have to play with it next time I'm out flying. I'll let you know. I'll bet there's a few other guys here wondering also. (A year ago, when I asked Garmin about the line being easily 50* from the point of his nose, the guy thought maybe it was a helicopter---going sideways)
 
I don`t know what to say other than looking out is very very important!
I was as well on a flight on saturday. When I landed a friend who tracked me sent me this picture and asked me if I have seen the other one... I did not nor did I get a warning from my powerflarm.
And I know that the Piper is equipped with FLARM as it is an Airplane from my homeairport (and I did my first Solo on her about 12 years ago)..


@Dan: Poor you, I thought about all the planes stuck below the fog...
 

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Vision

Recently a retired friend who was noted to have Eagle eyesight (no correction- better than 20/15) commented that he had been flying right seat with another pilot and had been having difficulty seeing targets showing up on ADSB and provided by flight following. The guy in the left seat had no difficulty picking up the visual. He went for an eye exam and found he had early cataract formation in both eyes. In response to his comment that his close up vision was still better than 20/20 he was told he had nuclear cataracts ( forming in the central area of the lens) and that two conditions are likely with this type of cataract. That distance vision is more affected early on and that the cataract causes the lens to go more lenticular which moves the focal point towards more short sighted (myopic). So for all us “oldies” out there relying on what our long distance sight used to be just because we can still read the newsprint may not be a good plan.

KT
 
See and avoid is fine, when conditions are good and everyone is flying a Cub or Tiger Moth. Otherwise........... :eek:
 
What "makes me angry" is all the foolish reliance radios and gadgets for helping manage collision avoidance when in a **VFR** environment!! Even is installed and turned on, they don't work right 100% of the time. If you can't see well enough to manage collisions with your eyes, you are not safe and need to hang it up for the benefit of everyone else who can manage.
 
This straight out of the FAA website.

The Top 10 Leading Causes of Fatal General Aviation Accidents 2001-2016:

1. Loss of Control Inflight
2. Controlled Flight Into Terrain
3. System Component Failure – Powerplant
4. Fuel Related
5. Unknown or Undetermined
6. System Component Failure – Non-Powerplant
7. Unintended Flight In IMC
8. Midair Collisions
9. Low-Altitude Operations
10. Other

Too much reliance on all the magic installed these days will not reliably show all that's out there. Neither my non electrical Pitts S1S nor my Laser 200 will show up on your screen. Even if I had ADS-B out, it would not be a reliable indicator for you with your eyes inside scanning for traffic. I rarely fly straight and level for more than a few minutes.
 
If you can't see well enough to manage collisions with your eyes, you are not safe and need to hang it up for the benefit of everyone else who can manage.

Donald Rumsfeld had something to say about a similar problem, didn't he...?
 
not me

Wild Bill made a comment that caught my attention. Plus 500.
For 15 years I have flown Canadian rules around my home airport. I fly in Embry Riddle territory. Everyone on the magenta line and all dialed in on 500 ft. I fly even and odd. Not in the IFR altitudes.... I know the hazard in that. The students and instructors here are young and inexperienced. And often heads down on the big screen TV.
I avoid a lot of close calls this way. My ADS-B tells me scarry things all the time and has told me in class bravo just how many flying machines are in the sky. For over 40 years, I had the false comfort because the eyeballs just don't know. Now we know.
Now expecting a nasty gram from the FSDO, since they probably read forums trolling for bad guys. Oh well...
 
good students!

... I fly in Embry Riddle territory. Everyone on the magenta line and all dialed in on 500 ft. ...
Sounds like they have some pretty good students if they are locked in at x500 feet, and all have the same altimeter setting. :D

I'll keep looking out the window as my primary collision avoidance method, and if there is an electronic device I can install to help see and be seen, why not?
 
Here in Texas there are a lot of 10 pound + birds that do not have ADSB. You better be looking outside all of the time that you can!

This... And the "birds" can get really big. Couple of years ago we were on an IFR plan. GPS traffic, radar separation services from Center, etc. We were distracted in the cockpit briefing an approach or something. Looked up and :eek:. Almost hit a glider that crossed in front of us maybe 50' below.

Called up center- "Uhhhh.. any traffic in our sector? We just got real close to a glider." "Negative" Couple minutes later "Traffic 7 o'clock 2 miles, altitude unknown. No Factor."

Radar can't see everything either.
 
I wonder whether it would be possible to augment see-and-avoid with a stereo vision system that can track and highlight potential threats.

Just before ADS-B was coming on the scene there was a guy who had invented a video based traffic identification system. His background was in developing video systems for missile guidance. He demonstrated the system as Oshkosh that was able to identify traffic that would be a collision threat. I think his estimated cost was around $1500. ADS-B came along and killed the market for the device. I think this was somewhere around 2007 or 2008.
 
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