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R Series 360 from Titan

Relentless

Relentless

Well Known Member
I wanted to update ya'll on status of our R Series Engines. This weekend I have been finishing the last few items on our R360 so we can get it into our ASTM certification program. 150-200 hours of abuse with all production parts that we are finally getting in. Good thing because I have now 15 R Series engine customers that have put down deposits to be the first to get one of these engines. R360, R409, and R540's will start shipping by end of year.

This bottom photo shows that new light weight oil sump and aluminum induction sump with tuned carbon induction tubes. Airflow Performance has produced this new AFP150 servo that weight just 4.4lbs. The valve you see is a pop-valve ensures any backfires won't damage sump...
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Here you see the carbon inner baffle. I used this same technique for the R409 I raced at Reno it worked great and after 100hours of operation found them to hold up perfectly.
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The only modification need to install a stock Van's aluminum airbox is the rear of Cylinder #4. A simple carbon decal layup makes quick work out of preparing to modify the LH rear panel and keeping cooling air close to the #4 cylinder. I'll create thread about the airbox I have learned to make it work.
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The top of the engine looks pretty traditional with fuel injection lines, but again carbon inner baffles do a great job keeping cooling air in between the fins and are lightweight and sturdy. Notice the ECi magnesium accessory case with built-in 90 degree oil-filter. This was designe to make more room on the rear of the engine and reduce weight for the Carbon Cub. I love this part. it really cleans up the rear of the engine.
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I've given up dealing with Klaus... maybe Electroair would be another option.
 
Basically, you are dealing with a front mount governor case if you want a governor, and dual electric fuel pumps like the EFII uses. There isn't even a vac pump type drive to run a rotary pump if you wanted to.

Personally, in an RV I'd take the 5lb hit to have the versatility, but probably not in a Carbon Cub.
 
FWIW, note the left side boss in the casting for a magneto, p-mag, or similar. The camshaft idler gear had to be in there anyway, so a bit of machining, two studs, and Bob's your uncle.

The Carbon Cub has a carb, gravity feed fuel (no pump), and Lightspeeds. Current electrical system is a single B&C alternator, a main battery, and a little 2AH backup battery. My guess is that EFii injection would require an accessory case with provision for a B&C permanent magnet backup alternator, as the power demand includes two electric fuel pumps.
 
EFII

Negative on the need for an extra alternator with EFII.
And only one pumps ever runs at a time.

Robert
 
Awesome!

How much does this thing weigh? With the Carbon Tubes, you're probably shaving at least 10lbs off.
 
osxuser said:
...

Personally, in an RV I'd take the 5lb hit to have the versatility, but probably not in a Carbon Cub.
Click to expand...

That makes me wonder how many Bush Pilots want to fly into the Bush in an all electric airplane?

Dual P-mags is one thing but dual Light Speeds is another! You can at least power the P-mags with a 9 volt battery until the engine is spinning fast enough to self power the P-mags.

I would happily take the five pound weight penalty for a non-race plane.
 
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R360 weighs in!!!!

Nickb145 said:
Awesome!

How much does this thing weigh? With the Carbon Tubes, you're probably shaving at least 10lbs off.
Click to expand...

Finally finished R360 engine and ready for dyno weight is 244.4 lbs! Lightspeed coils and flywheel included. This makes me very happy as I know it will push over 200hp, run nicely on lower octane fuel, and within 1 lb of carbon cub 340 this engine will be our best seller:D

Carbon Cub 340cc in same configuration 243.8lbs......

For comparison, the lightest 409 I have built with traditional parallel cylinders for long ez that I raced this year at Reno was 278lbs... 208hp...

R409 in the RV8 with traditional accessory case, gears, B&C alt, Efii coils, etc. was 294lbs........but 234hp...:cool:.
 
Fuel pumps, alternator, front gov pad, and mag sump.

Walt said:
Fuel pump, prop governor?
Click to expand...

There are several fuel pump options:

Airflow performance and EFii both offer dual fuel pump setups. I have been running the dual ANDAIR fuel pump in my long EZ with 409 and it has worked flawlessly, once I put in 25psi relief value. (Andy is working on internally by-pass version) I like the idea of Dual pumps and the Andair weights only 480 grams. If weight is less of a concern I would go with EFii pumps, they are small package and less $$$$..

Alternator with magnesium case:

You will have to hang one out front....

ECi is just about ready to start sending over forward governor pad cases thus giving you constant speed option and still use mag case....

One last item, we are now shipping with all our vertical sump engines our new magnesium sump. This is a copy of the the old aluminum one but made out of magnesium. Weight 7.5lbs for entire sump! That's 6.5lbs off:)
 
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So, the $64,000 question (pun intended) is what kind of price point are we talking here? Would be nice to have some idea of whether this is (personally) cost-effective or at least cost-reasonable. I understand that there are a number of things that can change the price, just looking for something ballpark for comparison to other engines (and, yes, I know there is no comparison but...)

Thanks,
Greg
 
rcpaisley said:
Negative on the need for an extra alternator with EFII. And only one pumps ever runs at a time. Robert
Click to expand...

I beg your pardon. Poor word choice on my part. Strictly speaking, a backup alternator is not required to run the ignition and fuel injection.

Of course, folks who pay $185,000 for a new Carbon Cub SS are, to some extent, paying for confidence. On battery alone, the voltage warning system counts down faster running EFI in addition to ignitions.

Website says 1.2 amps per ignition. How about that pump, ECU, and injectors? And what is the cutoff voltage below which the system no longer operates at 2700 RPM?
 
Will you sell a magnesium sump in standard configuration and sump kit to those who just want to lighten their engine? If so, how much and what is the expected weight savings of each part?

BTW, 244 lbs is the listed weight of the 135 HP O-290-D2 I started with.
 
Selling mag sumps...

N941WR said:
Will you sell a magnesium sump in standard configuration and sump kit to those who just want to lighten their engine? If so, how much and what is the expected weight savings of each part?

BTW, 244 lbs is the listed weight of the 135 HP O-290-D2 I started with.
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Generally speaking we have stopped selling any part from ECi that is experimental like this sump unless it is part of an overhaul by Titan. Things seem to change however, I'll keep ya'll informed if things change...

The entire Magnesium updraft warm sump weights just 7.5 lbs. Not sure what you mean by kit? Gasket and new hoses with clamps?
 
R Series pricing is always up on our site.

Greg Arehart said:
So, the $64,000 question (pun intended) is what kind of price point are we talking here? Would be nice to have some idea of whether this is (personally) cost-effective or at least cost-reasonable. I understand that there are a number of things that can change the price, just looking for something ballpark for comparison to other engines (and, yes, I know there is no comparison but...)

Thanks,
Greg
Click to expand...

GO to the contact page of titanengine.com, there is a list of PDF's with our current price list. The prices there now for R Series do not include the latest sumps but are good for standard sump configuration.

But we are happy to just accept $64,000 each and throw in EVERTHING!
 
Power to weight R Series

N941WR said:
BTW, 244 lbs is the listed weight of the 135 HP O-290-D2 I started with.
Click to expand...

So old school 290 power to weight: 55.3% New R Series 360 same weight but 81.9%.. I am pretty sure that may be the best power to weight in any Lycoming or Continental air cooled engine...:cool:

Raise the bar or leave it alone...
 
Greg Arehart said:
So, the $64,000 question (pun intended) is what kind of price point are we talking here? Would be nice to have some idea of whether this is (personally) cost-effective or at least cost-reasonable. I understand that there are a number of things that can change the price, just looking for something ballpark for comparison to other engines (and, yes, I know there is no comparison but...)

Thanks,
Greg
Click to expand...

Greg,

I intended to put price here as well. I am selling the R360 as seen in the photo with all the goodies for about 36,700. Ball park for similar 200hp engine with Efii 15-18% more... If you need overhaul we can turn your 360 into R Series and expect about the same premium;)

If lower octane fuel tests play out I am sure the initial upfront can quickly be offset by the lower operating costs and longer TBO.... Time will tell.
 
DanH said:
I beg your pardon. Poor word choice on my part. Strictly speaking, a backup alternator is not required to run the ignition and fuel injection.

Of course, folks who pay $185,000 for a new Carbon Cub SS are, to some extent, paying for confidence. On battery alone, the voltage warning system counts down faster running EFI in addition to ignitions.

Website says 1.2 amps per ignition. How about that pump, ECU, and injectors? And what is the cutoff voltage below which the system no longer operates at 2700 RPM?
Click to expand...

The Carbon Cub's have been all electric for quite some time now... Like forever. They don't seem to have trouble selling. But lets be honest, the Carbon Cub may be used for light off-airport ops... but nobody runs them in Alaska. Those working airplanes barely have electrical systems, run mags and carbs, and nothing resembling a radio or transponder. Different world up there. No, backcountry people don't want an all electric airplane.

But Carbon Cub customers do. See the difference?
 
EFII power

Yep! You got it!
And our full system doesn't draw any more than an AFP+Plasma with the boost pump on. Run a modern Denso type alternator and you'll probably never have to worry. If you did lose the alternator, you have a couple hours of flight time with typical battery setups,

Robert
 
EFII current

The full system draws a little under 10 amps at high rpm (4 cyl).
Half of that is the fuel pump. Again about the same as AFP+Plasma+boost pump.
The ECU runs down to 7v.

Our system is not a power hog by any means and low voltage operation is very good!
Robert
 
rcpaisley said:
The full system draws a little under 10 amps at high rpm (4 cyl).
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Half of that is the fuel pump. Again about the same as AFP+Plasma+boost pump. The ECU runs down to 7v.
Click to expand...

The existing Carbon Cub 340CC application is carbed and has no pump. The Plasma III pulls 1.3 amps per side and runs down to 4 volts. The numbers suggest the existing system will cruise three to five times longer on battery...which is why I figure most customers would want a backup alternator with EFii.

....low voltage operation is very good! Robert
Click to expand...

We saw how good when it wouldn't start on the dyno until hooked to a separate battery. Sharing one with the dyno starter pulled voltage too low. The Carbon Cubs's B&C starter also has a larger than average draw. Anybody tried to crank a 340/EFii/B&C combo with a single half-flat PC680?

Of course, there is always the Bus Manager.

QUOTE:
The standard Bus Manager installation uses two batteries and one alternator. A two battery, two alternator setup can also be implemented if desired.

The Bus Manager stops brownout during engine cranking!

http://flyefii.com/bus_manager/bus_manager.htm
 
Relentless said:
GO to the contact page of titanengine.com, there is a list of PDF's with our current price list. The prices there now for R Series do not include the latest sumps but are good for standard sump configuration.

But we are happy to just accept $64,000 each and throw in EVERTHING!
Click to expand...

Thanks. Sometimes I wonder about web designers - seems that there are a lot of websites with critical information hidden in the most unexpected (at least to me) places....

Greg
 
chazking said:
Does an electronic ignition make any performance improvements?
Click to expand...

Typically, yes. You can go faster at a higher fuel burn or go the "normal" speed at a lower fuel burn. For P-mags the number most often quoted is a reduction of 1.5 GPH in cruise with two installed.
 
DanH said:
The existing Carbon Cub 340CC application is carbed and has no pump. The Plasma III pulls 1.3 amps per side and runs down to 4 volts. The numbers suggest the existing system will cruise three to five times longer on battery...which is why I figure most customers would want a backup alternator with EFii.
Click to expand...

Carbon Cub customers have no idea what is going on under the hood. If they did, they would've just built their own cub, and saved $100k. They will buy the latest gizmo just because. It's the Cirrus of Light Sports.

We saw how good when it wouldn't start on the dyno until hooked to a separate battery. Sharing one with the dyno starter pulled voltage too low. The Carbon Cubs's B&C starter also has a larger than average draw. Anybody tried to crank a 340/EFii/B&C combo with a single half-flat PC680?
Click to expand...

Seems a little bias is at play here? I've tried to start a stock IO-320 with two Slicks on an Glasair I with a stock Bendix on a half flat PC680 and it didn't start... does that count?
 
Most conventional batteries have less than 10% charge remaining at an open circuit voltage of around 11.5V. You won't be flying for more than a few minutes when it drops below 9V if you have battery dependent ignition and fuel delivery.

Most critical avionics like transponders and comms will sign off at around 8.5-9V.

Electric fuel pump performance falls off drastically at around 8V.

Inductive system spark energy and injector response time falls off considerably below 8 volts unless compensated for by increasing charge coil charge time and injector on time.

No engine is going to crank over at an open circuit battery voltage of 9V. Any good battery/ starter/ cable setup should be able to sustain a minimum 9 volts@200 amps for 15 seconds. This is a standard load test I've used for 30+ years. If it doesn't, you should find out why and fix it.

I hope nobody is going to go flying any EI/EFI equipped aircraft with a marginal battery- you are asking for trouble IMO. Remember the Diamond Twinstar double engine out incident a few years back...
 
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Greg Arehart said:
Thanks. Sometimes I wonder about web designers - seems that there are a lot of websites with critical information hidden in the most unexpected (at least to me) places....

Greg
Click to expand...

Greg, you're smarter than me navigating the titan website.

I failed the easter egg hunt - Kevin, can you post a link to the pdf price list?:confused:

Thanks!
 
bummer

It's neat to see the new stuff from ECI but I can't help but give a sigh when I see that in order to partake in it, you have to buy an engine by Titan. Bill isn't going to buy another engine just to get a forward facing sump so now he has to go to Superior who will gladly sell the sump to customers. I'm in the same boat. Same goes to the new unique filter housing and new design cylinders. The innovation is amazing and worth giving you guys a pat on the back.

My discretionary income can yield several Ben Franklin's for these interesting offerings, but not to the order of a new engine. I hope that your marketing strategy will indeed change in the future to allow folks with engine's to purchase things without having to replace an engine.
:)
cj

Relentless said:
Generally speaking we have stopped selling any part from ECi that is experimental like this sump unless it is part of an overhaul by Titan. Things seem to change however, I'll keep ya'll informed if things change...

The entire Magnesium updraft warm sump weights just 7.5 lbs. Not sure what you mean by kit? Gasket and new hoses with clamps?
Click to expand...
 
rv6ejguy said:
I hope nobody is going to go flying any EI/EFI equipped aircraft with a marginal battery- you are asking for trouble IMO.
Click to expand...

Thank you Ross.

For those not in the loop, Ross is the manufacturer of the Simple Digital Systems (SDS) ECU and control head under discussion. Robert Paisley installs his "EFii" sticker on the cover of an SDS ECU, and packages it with off-the-shelf peripherals; Subaru coils, Siemens injectors, etc.

In my experience, there is no BS in Ross. Read what he has to say about battery-only run time with EI/EFI, and about battery backup:

http://www.sdsefi.com/air45.htm

Ross has personal experience with electrical failure, and has written about it here on VAF. If you missed it, here is the link. Scroll down to 02/07/05:

http://www.sdsefi.com/rv12.htm

As noted previously, I suspect you'll need two batteries for reliable starting, one to run the starter motor and one to maintain constant nominal voltage to the ECU. The existing Carbon Cub backup battery is only 2AH. It would easily handle brownout prevention for starting, but be inadequate for any significant run time. So, with both EI and EFI somebody will need to choose; accept a short run time, or install a larger second battery, or install a second alternator. The little B&C permanent magnet alternator weighs the same or less than any acceptable battery, and has an unlimited run time.

Same applies to an RV installation. You'll need two batteries, and only a second alternator allows primary alternator failure to be a non-event. All other choices have a highly variable flight time limit.

The difference is that the Cub already has a standard voltage monitor and alert system, with wiring for the backup battery. RV builders will need to buy and wire Paisley's Bus Manager (and the installation kit or equivalent parts) in addition to the cost of the EFI/EI system, or design and wire their own dual bus system.

PS: Take a look at Doug's story here: http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/AlternatorFailure.pdf

Without a backup alternator, a EFI/EI RV would have meant a ride home in the Stearman.
 
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EFII system

Our system is hardly "Off the shelf"!
We use the most proven components in the construction of our system. Including the well respected SDS ECU, the best automotive industry sensors available, many mechanical parts that we manufacture in-house including a very high quality fuel pump module and the best wire harness you'll find in experimental aircraft parts. Not to mention our Bus Manager which is the best way to manage a two battery setup.

Your continual put downs and extreme negativity are extremely unprofessional, and completely unwarranted! Grow up Horton!

Robert
 
Great question

chazking said:
Does an electronic ignition make any performance improvements?
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The short answer is yes, but not by huge margins.

I have raced many years and spent much time trying to get the most hp out of these engines and the truth is, at max power the difference is maybe less than 2% to electronic. But, at every other realm of operation the electronic ignition systems are more efficient.
 
Aftermarket ECi and Titan Parts

grubbat said:
It's neat to see the new stuff from ECI but I can't help but give a sigh when I see that in order to partake in it, you have to buy an engine by Titan.
:)
cj
Click to expand...

This is a corporate decision that is mainly in place to differentiate our engines and minimize liability if the parts are not installed properly. While a simple sump is no big deal and totally new cylinder can be. I know because the first prototype engine almost killed me when instructions for installing the new tech where not followed.

To be clear, while we don't sell the parts individually, we will sell them as part of an overhaul. Fly more!:D
 
There is some good info here with regards to backup batteries: http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/technical/1277751263_20100627-TechManual-Lo.pdf

Go to page 5 (page 7 PDF) for a chart depicting current draw vs. time.

Current draw on my setup to run the injectors, one pump, ECU and coil pack is around 10 amps.

I use an 18 Amp/hr. backup battery from these folks plus a PC680 as a primary battery. I did some actual tests pulling about a 9 amp load on the PowerSonic battery. After 75 minutes, the no load voltage was still over 11 volts so I think I will have a solid 60 minutes flight time available from the backup and something similar from the primary battery at about 15C ambient. Call it 90-120 minutes total.

Note that battery performance falls off at lower temperatures as well as over the life of the battery so time to discharge with a load could be less. I plan to be on the ground within 60 minutes of an alternator failure and no more than 90 to be safe.

Nobody likes to haul around extra battery weight but in the event of an alternator failure, every spare AH you have on board will be appreciated. Pick a suitable backup battery for the type of terrain you fly over, figuring distance/ time to fly to a safe landing area.

Here is a short blurb on the Diamond accident: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/accident-ignites-da42-engine-row-213371/

Using these lightweight Titan engines will allow you to carry a bigger backup battery...
 
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