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Vans hold harmless and liability release

Bill.Peyton

Bill.Peyton

Well Known Member
Ok, as a background, I purchases the emp from the original builder. All the other kits I purchased directly from Vans. I now am painting the fuse and have a number reserved, but want to go ahead and register the aircraft. To do this I need the bill of sale from Vans. The catch, they will only give it to you if you sign a release and hold harmless agreement. Kind of a surprise to me since I was never provided with anything that would have told me so at any time from Vans. My attorney is not real happy with the hold harmless clause.
I assume for those who are flying, that you signed the release. Did it include the hold harmless clause? For those who purchased the emp kit from vans, how were you made aware of this?
For those of you who do not know what a hold harmless agreement is, it dictates that you, the builder, will cover all of Vans legal expenses and any judgement against them.
 
Everyone has to sign it and Van's would be foolish not to require everyone to sign it. Sounds like your attorney is being an attorney. He'd like to be able to sue Van's if you ever got hurt. :D :eek:
 
Although the quote from Henry VI, part 2 is almost always taken out of context*, I think oftentimes it's a very cogent phrase:

"First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!"

My family has strict instructions...should anything happen to me in my plane, DON'T go after Van's or Lycoming or anybody else. It's my plane, I'm building, I'll take responsibility (and I have plenty of insurance, as well).

Steve

*The context: the quote is from conspirators who, wishing to start a rebellion, realize they need to get rid of those who know the law. Paraphrastically, if you want tyranny and injustice to prevail, get rid of the lawyers.
 
Bill.Peyton said:
For those of you who do not know what a hold harmless agreement is, it dictates that you, the builder, will cover all of Vans legal expenses and any judgement against them.
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Let me ask you this...who is building the plane to an airworthy state? That is the one who is responsible for whatever happens to the aircraft once it is flying. Your lawyer (with all due respect) is the reason aviation is so expensive in the first place. If you do not feel like signing the hold harmless clause...then please do not step foot into a Vans aircraft. Building and flying these planes comes with responsibility. YOU are where the buck stops. Vans is just making a bunch of parts. Sign it and fly it or sell it and move on.
 
You've Just Manufactured an Airplane

You might ask your attorney what protection you are afforded when you sell the aircraft at some point in the future. That would be useful information to share with other builders/buyers. I'm not sure if a builder has ever been enjoined in a suit or if any legal action has ever been successful when it comes to experimental aircraft.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Dont know about successful, but the John Denver case comes to mind. Wasnt the original builder part of that suit?
Tom
 
I believe you can call your plane whatever you want and register it however you want. If you register it as a kit, then you need to supply a bill of sale. If you don't register it as a kit, and you give the a/c your own name, then you don't have to supply a bill of sale.

This is not to get around the liability release and, if you call it something other than an official Van's, your ability to sue goes down even more. But, why would any of us want to sue Van's? We are the builders and we know what we are getting in to.

I signed the releases as I want to minimize the chance of my estate, should I die in my plane, to sue. I love what Van's has done for aviation and a major suit could crush them out of existance, and I would not want that to be the legacy of my death. I agree, at some point we need to kill (fire) the lawyers, take responsibility and and accept that accidents happen, and go fly.
 
terrykohler said:
You might ask your attorney what protection you are afforded when you sell the aircraft at some point in the future. That would be useful information to share with other builders/buyers. I'm not sure if a builder has ever been enjoined in a suit or if any legal action has ever been successful when it comes to experimental aircraft.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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some one posted here awhile back:
He was not the builder, but owned the plane briefly and sold it.
The plane was in an accident, he was sued along with Vans, et, al.
When he posted, the case was not resolved, and he had already spent $50k in lawyer's fees.

Looks like the "hold harmless and liability release" should be in everybody's purchase and sale agreement as well.
 
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Flying Scotsman said:
My family has strict instructions...should anything happen to me in my plane, DON'T go after Van's or Lycoming or anybody else. It's my plane, I'm building, I'll take responsibility (and I have plenty of insurance, as well).
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Unfortunately, while your family may abide by your wishes, the underwriters of your insurance will not be so forgiving. They will go after anyone with money to recover any payout they make.

As a buyer not a builder, Vans Aircraft sent me something similar when I emailed them as the new owner. I didn't balk as the form. I did balk as the requirement that it be signed and stamped by a notary. Is this only the case for buyers?
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Vans sent me one of the same agreements to sign and have notarized after I bought my -6 and before they would sell me a builders manual for it (original was long gone). I sent it in, signed but not notarized, and haven't heard anything negative about it.
 
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According to my lawyer, who is a pilot and a friend, specifically, this is what he stated the waiver accomplishes.

By signing the waiver .."it becomes your intention to waive the right to pursue Van's for an egregious defect in the negligent or reckless design of a component that causes your injury or death, or in its manufacture (or its supplier's manufacture) of that part?"


When someone dies as a result of an aircraft accident, usually everyone is sued, the builder, Vans, Lycoming, Slick, Champion, Garmin (or whoever), etc. Obviously the lawyers go for the deep pockets and look at state laws, but everyone is named. Sometimes the settlements involve percentage of blame.


Yes, legal fees are probably the single largest concern for a builder. Also, the type accident that involves an uninterested party such as a passenger or person on the ground, is of the most concern. They have not waived their rights through a sales agreement or any other means.


In theory, negligence must be proven. In reality, jury's don't really care and consist of the lowest level of intelligence the lawyers can pick.


By building this plane I accept that I have some liability as the builder, but I did not design the aircraft. Holding me hostage to sign a document that I have never seen just to get my bill of sale does not sit right with me. Vans should have a better procedure in place to establish the terms of the contract of sale and also the transfer of ownership of the kits sold by individuals. Vans had ample opportunity to notify me of this, both when the ownership changed at Vans, and when the additional kits were purchased. Whether one agrees on the liability waiver requirement or not, this is not a good business practice and if this happened during the purchase of your house, or your car you certainly would not accept the method in which it was invoked.
 
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Bill,
You are building an airplane. An object that has involved some of the largest lawsuits and settlements over time. Your lawyer and other lawyers like yours are the reason aviation is so expensive. When you run over a pedestrian on the road with your car, or drive it into the front of Walgreens YOU are the one that is primarily responsible. Your insurance company pays the damages and you may face some criminal charges depending on your actions. Why is it different with aircraft? LAWYERS! That is why. If you don't want the responsibility of building and flying...please find another hobby. You are barking up the wrong tree by presenting an argument that would make our hobby substantially more expensive.
 
Having purchased a share in an RV, almost purchasing a 6A, and then finally purchasing a complete 6, I can say that what you are asked to sign is all over the map. One was a simple 1 page bill of sale, another was 15 pages of legaleese, and the last was a pretty reasonable 4 page agreement.
 
Similar, maybe

Bill -

My case was similar, but different. I bought the empennage kit from the 2nd owner of it - private purchase like yours. I contacted Van's and they transferred the number to me after contacting the original purchaser. I looked through my files and found that I had to sign the waiver you refer to before purchasing the next subkit from Van's. I seem to recall that I also had to sign it before they transferred the builder number from the empennage kit to me but I can't lay my hands on it. I also found that I signed the exact same document before my demo flight at the factory a year earlier.

If everyone reads your original and subsequent posts in this thread, I think they'll realize that what you are really objecting to is that you didn't know you would have to sign such a document until you were well along in the process. It seems that they required me to sign one earlier than you so it may have been a hiccup in their process. I agree with the posts about us assuming the majority of liability as builders and general disdain for lawyers, but Bill has a decent point about knowing what to expect up front.

I also think that, as a proven design (a series of them, really), any liability for Van's for is a bit different than for some new design. It's pretty hard to make a straight-face case that any crash of an RV is a result of negligence on the part of Van's when so many are successfully built and flown. It might be different if it could be proven that a wing spar was flawed, or something like that, but I know of no such incident. Crashes are almost always SALO, engine failure, collision with something in flight, or pilot error, it seems.

My $0.02.
 
Bill.Peyton said:
Holding me hostage to sign a document that I have never seen just to get my bill of sale does not sit right with me. Vans should have a better procedure in place to establish the terms of the contract of sale and also the transfer of ownership of the kits sold by individuals. Vans had ample opportunity to notify me of this, both when the ownership changed at Vans, and when the additional kits were purchased. Whether one agrees on the liability waiver requirement or not, this is not a good business practice and if this happened during the purchase of your house, or your car you certainly would not accept the method in which it was invoked.
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Bill, I totally understand your frustration. I received the document with the first kit and I was reminded by Barbara when I purchased my finish kit that I needed to get it signed before they would issue the bill of sale. I don't recall if Barbara was being proactive or I just asked her a direct question concerning the bill of sale. I also agree that Van's should be more proactive with they receive a notice of transfer of ownership. Although, it's pretty common knowledge too. Every flying RV has gone through the process. The person that sold you the kit should have also disclosed Van's requirement to sign the waiver.

bob
 
They also make you sign all the same multiple forms, including the notarization, even if you buy a flying plane, before they will let you buy any small replacement parts.
 
Hiccup?

Based on Bob's experience, and my dim recollection that I had to sign it before getting the S/N transferred to me (and definitely before buying the first subkit from Van's), I suspect it was a hiccup in their process in your case. No question that it is good business and common courtesy to provide buyers/builders with that info at the first contact with the factory.
 
I believe that most are misunderstanding the issue.

The issue is that before I can get my bill of sale I am required to sign a document that I was never informed of, irregardless of what that document covers.

It does not sound like this happens in most cases, and mine slipped through the Vans process. Would my decision to build have been different had I known?

In terms of liability. I think that most all builders sell their aircraft with a release waiver, the standard EAA Bill of Sale includes the language. That is done during the purchase, not after the purchase as in this case.

This is a litigious country we live in, and it only gets worse. It's a shame:(
 
Probably the reason you didn't get the information to began with is that you didn't get the original tail kit from Vans. If I remember right that information was sent with my original order for the tail kit. If Van didn't protect himself in this manner he probably would have been put out of business long ago by some pilots stupid mistake and a hungry lawyer, instead we have 7000 safe flying RV's
 
This form comes with the preview plans and is in the paperwork for every other sub kit... Its right in there with the packing list & directions... Seriously, how could someone not know about this. You pounded the rivets, not Van's. When you rent an airplane, who is ultimately responsible to declare the A/C is airworthy... The PIC! Just Saying, Van's kits are tried & true. Van's can not control your craftsmanship and should not be held responsible for anything. Was van's there when that guys cut lightening holes in his main spar and went out and did aerobatics. Should vans be liable for that wing folding up like an ultra light in a tornado?
 
Bill.Peyton said:
I believe that most are misunderstanding the issue.

The issue is that before I can get my bill of sale I am required to sign a document that I was never informed of, irregardless of what that document covers.

It does not sound like this happens in most cases, and mine slipped through the Vans process. Would my decision to build have been different had I known?

In terms of liability. I think that most all builders sell their aircraft with a release waiver, the standard EAA Bill of Sale includes the language. That is done during the purchase, not after the purchase as in this case.

This is a litigious country we live in, and it only gets worse. It's a shame:(
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Bill, I am not sure what to say to your request for information. Most everyone here has given you the information you requested in your original post:
I assume for those who are flying, that you signed the release. Did it include the hold harmless clause? For those who purchased the emp kit from vans, how were you made aware of this?
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I can also say I signed the document. I cannot say for sure when it was in the process that I signed it.

So, most have answered your question and then provided some other "opinions" about your actions in signing it. Even so, it seems you are taken aback by Van's procedures and the other 7000+ builder's actions. So, now it is your choice to deal with your situation however you see necessary. That means you have to choose between a few options. You can:
  1. Sign the document and move forward with your build as pretty much every other RV builder has done
  2. Not sign the document and try to move forward with your build without a bill of sale from Vans
  3. Not sign the document and SUE Vans for . . . well, whatever you feel like suing them for.
  4. Forget about the "litigious society we live in" and live your life how you want to live it, without involving lawyers in your life, even if they are your friends.

This is a litigious country we live in, and it only gets worse. It's a shame:
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It is only a shame if we buy into the idea that there is nothing we can do to stop it from happening. We can stop it. . . but worrying about being sued anytime we do something out of the ordinary is not the way.

I have to say I agree with most others who are basically saying to you: Forget the lawyers, forget the litigious society, just build on and get in the air! If not, then I guess maybe you should consider taking up a less stressful hobby.
 
Would you have *not* built the aircraft if you had received and had to sign the release back when you purchased the empennage kit?
 
Snowflake said:
Unfortunately, while your family may abide by your wishes, the underwriters of your insurance will not be so forgiving. They will go after anyone with money to recover any payout they make.
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Nothing I can do about that. I can only do what I can do to help reduce the cost of aviation.
 
Bill,
It doesn't matter they didn't tell you before. It matters that you know now. That form is IN THE BUILDERS MANUAL. Did you not see it? Did you think that you could build an airplane or buy parts of one from someone else and absolve yourself from responsibility buy suing the manufacturer of the parts? You are in a hobby that has risks. Those risks can cost people their lives. Accept that, manage it and move on. If you want to register and fly your Vans aircraft, sign the document and move on. Otherwise, buy a Piper. You will get no sympathy from me regarding your concern. Its thinking like yours and your attorneys that took four place airplanes to 350-750K. I can't afford to fly those because of greedy lawyers and irresponsible pilots. I will stand my ground that you need to sign and move on or buy a certificated aircraft that has the cost of lawsuits built into them.
 
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//and should not be held responsible for anything

Here's a question. What if you buy parts from Van's as opposed to the kit?

I have found, for example, that at least three of the fat wire cables that Van's sold me were of a particularly poor quality and the connectors would easily twist off. But they're not part of a required kit like, say, the emp, wings, fuselage and finishing kit.

I wonder if in signing the waiver for the KIT, I'm also signing a waiver for defective PARTS BEYOND THE KIT that Van's provides, had I not been lucky enough, for example, to not notice they were defective?

I'm assuming there are no lawyers on VAF. ;)

The other question is, in signing a waiver, are you foregoing the rights to sue held by your heirs? Or only by yourself. I can't recall what the waiver said (and I don't actually read the license and legal agreement on software, either) and, of course, I assume it can say anything anyone wants it to say, I'm just not sure what the legal ability is for someone to sign someone ELSE's right to sue away.

Of course all of this talk about accidents and suing would be unnecessary if everyone just used primer in their plane's construction.
 
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I don?t know why I am responding to this but,, the truth is it doesn?t matter what you sign if something bad happens any attorney above public defender will use that hold harmless agreement for toilet paper.


It?s too bad but this is the world we live in and have no one but ourselves to blame.
Remember this the next time you do something stupid and want to hold some one ells accountable for your actions.

Sign the paper and fly.
 
Contract

Ask your Lawyer what document he will draft when you sell. He will want the new buyer to sign the same sort of document. After all he is a Lawyer. If you did every thing the Lawyers wanted you to do you would not get out of the house. Sign it and go have some fun.
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
If I'm following this correctly, those of you who are selling your RVs don't require the purchaser to sign anything limiting your liability.

Really?
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Really. If you do, please have the courtesy to write and sign that agreement on something soft, strong, and absorbent. It's much more comfortable for the lawyer who uses it to wipe his nether regions with it later.

Ah, drat, I see someone else has already made the toilet paper reference. Oh well.
 
Would be interesting to know which of the legal advice in the thread so far actually comes from a lawyer and which is street analysis. Although, given the disrespect shown the profession, I guess I can see why people aren't providing the deets.
 
Bill.Peyton said:
When someone dies as a result of an aircraft accident, usually everyone is sued, the builder, Vans, Lycoming, Slick, Champion, Garmin (or whoever), etc. Obviously the lawyers go for the deep pockets and look at state laws, but everyone is named. Sometimes the settlements involve percentage of blame.
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This is the part that makes me sick to my stomach. Going in, the lawyers know that many of these parties bear zero responsibility, but they also know that some will settle just to avoid the costs of a defense. This is nothing more than a shake-down and it goes on every single day. Who remembers the little girl trying to be the youngest to fly across the U.S.? The grownups decided to fly into terrible weather and everybody died. As I recall, just about anybody involved in the construction of that plane was named in the lawsuit. It makes no difference how meritless such a suit is, the defendants still have to pay for a defense.

Regarding Van's requiring a release, you say in your original post that your lawyer is not real happy about it. Why? What exactly would be a circumstance where it would matter? The only thing that would make me sue would be if Van's knowingly sold me phoney materials, say for example an engine mount made of macaroni painted white. Of course, in this case he would be guilty of fraud and could be prosecuted in criminal court. Obviously, that little agreement I signed would be worthless to him then.

I find it hard to believe that you didn't expect to sign some type of release for such a deal. I had to sign a release to rent a drain auger from Home Depot the other day! If you and the lawyer are that afraid of being denied the right to shake an honest business down you should simply register the plane as scratch built from parts. Of course this would probably reduce the resale value of the airplane, but that's the cost of not playing ball with Van's
 
Aviation Partners LLC??

Bill, I have to handed to you, you really know how to stir up a hornet's nest.

Your signature suggests that you are trying to do all you can to keep anyone from touching your assets. Wouldn't you expect Van's to do the same?
Not giving you the bill of sale is their last tool of leverage to get you sign
that piece of paper. Can't imagine you'd be the type of person that would willingly sign it after they give you that all important bill of sale.

You might want to sign that piece of paper and put the issue to rest or else it could get real difficult for you to find a DAR or someone to give you transition training.
 
I have to say, I really did not expect to get attacked. How I choose to address issues that concern my well being and financial assets is of course my choice. Everyone has their own tolerance for liability. Vans included. My issue has always been the manner in which the business was conducted, not that Vans, as a course of their operations requires a release waiver.
I see that last time this issue was brought up it produced similar results. Am I sorry I brought it up with this group... Absolutely.
 
So, while reading the "deja vu" thread, a thought came to mind that goes beyond this instance.

Say you bought all the kits from Van's or any other kit manufacturer, completed the plane and were ready to register it. FAA says you need a Bill of Sale.

By what legal authority can the kit manufacturer refuse to provide you a BOS unless you sign some other form? You *bought* the kit from them, paid them money for it, have the proof of it (receipts, cancelled checks, bills of lading, whatever). Clearly the *sold* it to you...the "sale" has been completed, and thus that contract has been fulfilled.

Could you (theoretically, of course) sue them if they refused to provide you a BOS?

There must be a UCC clause that addresses this. IANAL, so I have no idea, but it seems reasonable that you could force them to provide that, if one were so inclined.

Just idle thoughts while reading these threads...I signed that form the day I got the empennage kit and instruction manual and never looked back (as others have said, these things aren't worth the paper they're printed on if a court case ever comes up).
 
carrollcw said:
To be clear, the reason they wanted to kill all the lawyers was it was the easiest and quickest way to create anarchy, not because they thought lawyers were evil!!! Get you Shakespeare right lol!!!
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You didn't read the footnote on my post. I said exactly that. I read the play in college and have seen it performed several times...I know what the quote means. :)
 
Very well, didn't notice that. Was distracted by all the lawyer bashing. Although not a lawyer YET, I have completed 2 yrs of law school.... Everyone needs to remember, its not the lawyers that create the laws. Lawyers must act in accordance with their client's wishes. It is the client, thus society, that is causing all these well grounded complaints. Not the lawyers.
 
carrollcw said:
Very well, didn't notice that. Was distracted by all the lawyer bashing. Although not a lawyer YET, I have completed 2 yrs of law school.... Everyone needs to remember, its not the lawyers that create the laws. Lawyers must act in accordance with their client's wishes. It is the client, thus society, that is causing all these well grounded complaints. Not the lawyers.
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Good luck with 3rd year! So, law student...any thoughts on my question about the BOS?

And don't forget to read the footnotes in those opinions you're studying...they count, too :)

(No lawyer bashing from me...hey, some of my best friends are lawyers LOL!)
 
Flying Scotsman said:
Say you bought all the kits from Van's or any other kit manufacturer, completed the plane and were ready to register it. FAA says you need a Bill of Sale.
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This is the thing that sounds odd to me. If you build a plane from your own design, your own plans, and buy raw materials (aluminum sheet, etc) to build the structure, and have all the receipts for the parts, how would you satisfy the requirement for a BOS? You didn't buy a complete aircraft.

If you buy a completed and flying aircraft, the previous owner would give you a single receipt for it, and I seem to recall one of the FAA forms on transfer of ownership is a BOS (from when I bought Tweety and flew her home to Canada).

Building a kit from Vans falls in the middle somewhere. You're buying partially completed parts. In most RV's these days, Van's parts aren't even half of the cost of the whole assembly. Why aren't the receipts from your purchases of all of the parts considered by the FAA? If they're only concerned about the safety items, what if you didn't buy the engine or prop from Van's?

Seems like a silly requirement, for Van to have to supply a BOS for only a portion of the aircraft.
 
What strikes me as loony is the way the BOS is handled for *airframe* kits like these...the person or company providing the BOS strikes out the word "Aircraft" on the form and *writes in* the word "Kit" (or whatever it is they write, I don't have it handy at the moment). Really? What a goofy, antiquated way of doing things.

And yeah...the actual airframe costs were WAY less than the engine/prop and avionics, not to mention the thousands of other bits and pieces put together. How come I need a BOS from Van's, but not from Lycoming, Hartzell and Dynon, e.g.?

Seems there should be a different way of doing this, if the intent is to support something like the 50% rule or something like that.

Weird.

But my question still stands...can a kit manufacturer hold your registration and AW inspection and eventual use of YOUR plane hostage until you sign some form unrelated to the money exchanged for materials (i.e., a completed contract between buyer and seller)?
 
Flying Scotsman said:
any thoughts on my question about the BOS?
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Actually, from my point of view it appears to be a mute point. If for some strange reason there were a major failure of one of the Van's parts due to their negligence, Van's would still be held liable due to unconscionabilty doctrine. No one can contract out of being liable for gross negligence and sometime even ordinary negligence. So, if a part failed due to Van's negligence, a court would most likely overlook the contract because it would be deemed unconscionable.

I am going to sign mine and not worry about it.
 
carrollcw said:
Actually, from my point of view it appears to be a mute point. If for some strange reason there were a major failure of one of the Van's parts due to their negligence, Van's would still be held liable due to unconscionabilty doctrine. No one can contract out of being liable for gross negligence and sometime even ordinary negligence. So, if a part failed due to Van's negligence, a court would most likely overlook the contract because it would be deemed unconscionable.
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That wasn't really my question, though.

I was asking how a company can refuse to provide a BOS *after* the sale has occurred. Wouldn't they be depriving you of the use of the product you purchased from them?

(P.S. It's "moot", not "mute"...)
 
Hold Harmless

The hold harmless doc is one I and many other business have used as an attorney recommended fence to keep our name off lawsuits that would otherwise cost us to be present in court to represent/defend ourselves even though we had no actual liability, (just one of the named in the law suit.)

If actual gross-negligence is involved, then that is another story and a hold harmless is only a fence to be jumped. I have been told that these fences can be jumped for around a $10k investment.

I have used the hold harmless waivers for around 20 years with success of not being named in any lawsuits.

Remember that in America, a person is able to sue anyone for any reason and if the one being sued does not defend themselve they will loose.

I will call this a standard business practice when dealing with the public to this level. I would sign it and support Van's future support to his customers.

Just my opinion.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
That wasn't really my question, though.

I was asking how a company can refuse to provide a BOS *after* the sale has occurred. Wouldn't they be depriving you of the use of the product you purchased from them?

(P.S. It's "moot", not "mute"...)
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Although I haven't reviewed the initial purchase agreement, it would seem that as part of the initial agreement, the buyer agrees to sign the release, most likely in the fine print. Other than that, it seems that a bill of sale, if required by the FAA, would be contemplated as part of the deal. I have to say that many years ago, I bought an RV-4 tail kit and had so sign some sort of release before I got the tail kit. I don't remember what it said, that was before law school.

LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
Would be interesting to know which of the legal advice in the thread so far actually comes from a lawyer and which is street analysis. Although, given the disrespect shown the profession, I guess I can see why people aren't providing the deets.
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Based on the "quality" of the information, I would say none of it is coming from a lawyer. Have you ever overheard non-aviation types talking about people flying around in little planes or even other pilots talking about "homebuilt" planes? The misinformation in these threads is really very entertaining!

szicree said:
Regarding Van's requiring a release, you say in your original post that your lawyer is not real happy about it. Why? What exactly would be a circumstance where it would matter?
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I think he said initially that his lawyer had a problem with the hold harmless part of the agreement. That is where you agree to pay any amount that Van's is ordered to pay, and their legal fees. So if you take someone for ride and you crash and your passenger sues you and Vans, you are agreeing to pay any amount that Vans is ordered to pay in damages AND Van's legal fees. That is a little different than just agreeing not to sue Vans. It also might not be something your insurance would cover.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
I was asking how a company can refuse to provide a BOS *after* the sale has occurred. Wouldn't they be depriving you of the use of the product you purchased from them?
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I agree. IF someone really wanted to challenge it, they would probably prevail. At the time of sale, there is no notice (that I know of) provided by Vans that a condition of the sale is the signing of the waiver. Once the consideration is paid for the parts and accepted by Vans, as I see it they have no right to withhold something that was part of the bargain. You cannot close a deal, have someone pay for it, then say, "Oh, by the way, you also need to sign this for me to deliver everything you expected".

However, if anyone did challenge it, for subsequent sales, Vans would simply put a conspicuous statement informing buyers of the policy. Then it would be a term of the sale.

There could be (and I am sure there is) a lot more to this analysis, but I don't have time to look up all the issues from my contracts class a yr ago (between working full time, law school full time, and building an RV7)!!!

In the end, I am not concerned with it. I plan on signing when it comes up.
 
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