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Near collision with US military C130!

RickWoodall

Well Known Member
I saw on here a long time ago that there was a place to log issues with military planes, near misses etc. Anyone mind passing that along?

My wife and I were on a vfr trip cruising on a/p at the correct vfr alt in uncontrolled air. We noticed a plane off our left wing, miles away...it seemed to turn and head towards our destination CYQG. It was 2:40 pm we were heading sw. A little while later we noticed it heading across the lake, and assumed it was US training out of Selfridge ANG. No issue, at this time of day and direction the sun and glare makes vision on the horizon a little tough. About 5 min later, we noticed it off our front right, ahead of the wing. Looked and looked, actually discussed what it was doing and if we could see the direction it was going. HOLLY **** !!! ITS COMING AT US. No really, its coming right at us from front corner and fast. I dropped 1500' and veered to my left, down and away. It happened so fast, I cannot be sure but I think he actually pulled up and to his left.
I am not chicken or a nervous flyer at all. I have flown to osh, sunnfun, blah blah. I have flown through more busy airspace than most of my buddies and enjoy the challenge. This was dangerous.

Scared my wife a lot...as this was a big big plane C-130 I believe and it was at exact same alt and we would have been very close to a collision if I hadn't acted fast. I took a few hours to ponder this today.
The issue is, I was on mode C squawking 1200. I was at 4500ft heading sw. I was on autopilot and any radar or tcas would have no issue finding and understanding my path. I had been monitoring the only airport nearby, nothing of interest being broadcast.

Further....this was in CANADIAN air. I have no issue with military training I love watching it. BUT...I simply don't believe its possible he was toying with me (warthogs have been known to come up and pull beside)...this was a huge aircraft moving fast on a collision coarse. So, I have to assume he didn't know I was there. Well if that's true, Cleveland centre is IFR boss in that area..and I just cant see how this happened and why he would not have spaced himself out enough to fall in behind me. Is it possible someone seriously dropped the ball.

Do I just drop it....or do I file an issue somewhere? Seriously, I have worried about birds, student pilots, bad pilots etc...never considered being smashed out of the sky by a C130
 
I was not there

I was not there, but I will make a comment on one aspect. I have seen/heard many people make comments that show how little they know/how much they assume about military capabilities. ***I am not making excuses for them, etc, just offering one tidbit that I wish more people knew***

You mentioned TCAS and you mentioned radar.

While we should file IFR to the max extent practicable, we also need practice VFR. So, just like in a relaxing GA fun flight, we fly VFR on occasion in uncontrolled airspace, meaning we are talking to nobody, just like you. So, in that case radar means nothing, no advisories, etc. See and avoid, task saturation, hard to see at dusk, etc (I am not saying he didn't screw up).

Second, I for one would love to have all the bells and whistles that every person I meet at air shows thinks I have. Sure, this helicopter is brand new, has radar, sonar, inertial navigation, can carry tons of different ordnance, etc...but guess what? I have TACAN, period. No ILS, No certified GPS for approaches, no TCAS, my radar is for maritime environment (ships/subs in water) not RV-9's in the sky, and it might be broken at this moment, etc.

We do our best with what we have, and I sincerely apologize for what happened to you. I wish more military aviators loved flying as much as you do, but the sad fact is that it is a job for us and many have no interest in GA or flying once we retire. I have to force people to think outside the box WRT how we integrate in the national airspace system...it is OURS (citizens) not ours (military).
 
Ok

I understand mistakes get made, no question.....think I have made my share. I am not trying to go after any one person.

What I cant get though is that a Military airport was only 20 miles away and has a tower, a bazillion dollars in planes, surely has radar. This plane was crossing international borders. I simply cannot believe someone wasn't watching a screen and talking. This was not in the middle of Nevada it was just outside of Detroit Michigan and in US and Canadian Airspace back and forth.

Other weird thing, my zaon didn't even chirp. Military stuff doesn't give off bounces that PCAS picks up? Weird events today, its pretty reliable most of the time.

I just wondered what others would say or if they would suggest dropping it, or follow up somehow, even like a Nasa form in case somebody actually would look at the radar tracks or follow up to see how it could have happened.
 
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I see you have a Skyview, apparently no Mode S or ADSB in and out? You would have been warned and able to track its movements if you had. Your situation is EXACTLY why my Skyview does have that capability.
 
Glad you are ok

Would it have been different if it was another RV you almost hit? The reason I ask is because two VFR aircraft don't get separation in uncontrolled airspace. When we leave some of the MOAs or restricted airspace we are VFR (F-16) and usually get picked up for flight following, but some times they are too busy. If the C-130 wasn't talking to anyone it is simple see and avoid...seems like a busy airspace up there though compared to Tucson!!
 
I see you have a Skyview, apparently no Mode S or ADSB in and out? You would have been warned and able to track its movements if you had. Your situation is EXACTLY why my Skyview does have that capability.

ADSB in/out does not guarantee another aircraft will be displayed. If he was below radar coverage and didn't have ADSB out on the ADSB frequency you use (1090 or 978) he will never show up on your display. ADSB it is just another tool to help out.

Would it have been different if it was another RV you almost hit? The reason I ask is because two VFR aircraft don't get separation in uncontrolled airspace. When we leave some of the MOAs or restricted airspace we are VFR (F-16) and usually get picked up for flight following, but some times they are too busy. If the C-130 wasn't talking to anyone it is simple see and avoid...seems like a busy airspace up there though compared to Tucson!!

See and avoid is still the ultimate tool we have to avoid a midair collision.

:cool:
 
Several years ago a couple of friends and I were returning from SNF when we were "intercepted" by a C130. We could see him from several miles away and he passed within 500 ft below us, clearly they were tracking us. I thought it was pretty cool. Then about 30 minutes later, they intercepted us again from the opposite direction, same thing. This time as they were just to our 10 o'clock a couple of us simutaneously did an aileron roll. :D

So if you had it in sight the whole time what's the problem?
 
One thing I learned as a GA pilot and Navy enlisted aircrewman, don't assume that all military pilots are up to speed on GA flight ops, or even give it much thought. I've seen Navy helo pilots bust into a busy pattern at an uncontrolled airport without even a thought, let alone a radio call. When I was active aircrew, many of our helos didn't even have VHF AM radios. We were UHF coms only.
 
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Several years ago a couple of friends and I were returning from SNF when we were "intercepted" by a C130. We could see him from several miles away and he passed within 500 ft below us, clearly they were tracking us. I thought it was pretty cool. Then about 30 minutes later, they intercepted us again from the opposite direction, same thing. This time as they were just to our 10 o'clock a couple of us simutaneously did an aileron roll. :D

You sure it wasn't a DEA interdiction bird checking you out?
 
Good Evening,
Dropping 1500' was probably an over-reaction.
See and Avoid worked.
The Warthogs didn't pull along side you. They just couldn't outrun you. (wink)
John
 
File a NEAR MISS with the FAA and/or whatever the Transport Canada equivalent is. He probably already has if he saw you. We have -130s Air Guard nearby and these guys try to stay heads up all the time, especially low level ops but they also have a training mission to complete and somethimes get saturated or distracted, as we all have at sometime or another. If you are US, file a NASA report, or Canadian equivalent, if available, just in case you were crossing a MOA, TFR, low level training route, or moving Altrav. Approach it as a lessons learned situation and not a p---ing contest, and you'll find them most receptive and want to review their procedures to prevent a re-ocurrance. Big airplanes always run over smaller airplane, bad juju, just ask a member of the non-flying public. Give the base a call and ask to speak to the Flying Safety Officer for the -130 Squadron. Brief him on the incident, time, location, heading, and evasive action taken, tail number or squadron logos. Be professional! Dan
 
Flight following no guarantee

While returning to PDK using flight following, about 30 miles out I got a transmission from Approach saying ...traffic opposite direction, same altitude, less than a mile, suggest you climb 500 feet. I had to respond "Sorry, sir, by the time you said the word climb, I was already down 300'. I then had to explain to my wife, who refuses to wear a headset, why the book she was reading went from her lap to the ceiling for a few seconds.

Never did see the other airplane.
 
IFR no guarantee

Remember that even if you are IFR but VMC, if ATC calls traffic and you roger up to it as in sight, it is still your responsibility to "see and avoid". I am constantly reminding people at work that IFR/VFR not only means something different from IMC/VMC, but that IFR does NOT mean relax...especially when VMC!

As an example, many military airfields have a lot of traffic that need to keep up our minimums for instrument proficiency, so the local TRACON's have adjusted the patterns for us to allow quicker/more dense traffic patterns. In our local area, when we file a flight plan to stay in the local "precision approach bounce pattern" we are asked if we want IFR/VFR. If I say VFR, the altitudes are a but lower (1000' vs 1500' pattern) and we "are responsible for our own terrain and obstruction clearance". Additionally, a local controller told me that in that pattern they were permitted to allow the radar returns merge, whereas even in we called traffic on IFR plan they shouldn't/can't merge the returns (ATC guys correct me here if this part is wrong, it is second hand knowledge). Additionally, our VFR traffic is allowed to still be on the runway while we are on short final(not sure HOW short, but I have seen inside 3 miles).
 
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How long have you been flying?? Really, this kind of thing happens.

As a rule of thumb - in my experience - the bigger the plane the less eyeballs are outside the cockpit. But, the bigger the plane - the easier it is to see. Look left, look right, look over your head, watch your shadow (when you can), never trust ATC 100%. Put it on the shelf of flying experience and go fly.
 
If you're flying around Selfridge ANGB, be aware of the A-10s. They routinely fly at very low level and they have no TCAS or radar to detect other aircraft. They fly VFR eyes outside only.

The F-16s could detect you, the A10s can not.
 
VFR

I guess I don't understand your knee jerk reaction to blame someone for your encounter. Appearantly both aircraft were operating in VFR conditions. Do you think the 130 had no right to YOUR altitude and airspace?
 
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Several years ago a couple of friends and I were returning from SNF when we were "intercepted" by a C130. We could see him from several miles away and he passed within 500 ft below us, clearly they were tracking us. I thought it was pretty cool. Then about 30 minutes later, they intercepted us again from the opposite direction, same thing. This time as they were just to our 10 o'clock a couple of us simutaneously did an aileron roll. :D

So if you had it in sight the whole time what's the problem?

A few years ago a friend an I were returning from a whale watching flight off Cape Cod in AA5-As. Lead (Birdman) noticed a a jet ski (aka lake flea, $%@^#$% I hate those things), buzzing a sail boat. So, Birdman dropped down to 20 feet or so and buzzed the lake flea. What he didn't notice was a C-130 (out of Otis?) dropping down and buzzing him. It was like one of those pictures of a series of fish being eaten by progressively larger fish.
 
I guess I don't understand your knee jerk reaction to blame someone for your encounter. Appearantly both aircraft were operating in VFR conditions. Do you think the 130 had no right to YOUR altitude and airspace?

Not trying to pile on, but above is a good point. Further, you're in the more maneuverable plane.
 
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Proper response to this kind of situation, really, is to put your lift vector on him and pull. ;)

Seriously, you did find and as others have noted this happens from time to time. See-and-avoid worked, and I'd chuck it up to that. Good on you for paying attention and seeing the bogey in the first place!
 
C-130

Rick
I'll be very surprised if the Herc was out of Selfridge unless you were flying right over the border..

They normally don't venture across the border just for the fun of it... They will if it is coordinated with the Canadian side of the house.

I will look more for a Herc out of Trenton if I were you.

They have most likely low level trainning route around Kingston..

A call to Trenton Flight Ops might help shed some lights on this encounter..

The Military doesn't want a near miss anymore than you do..

Let us know how things turns out if you push the matter further..

Cheers

Bruno
 
I guess I don't understand your knee jerk reaction to blame someone for your encounter. Appearantly both aircraft were operating in VFR conditions. Do you think the 130 had no right to YOUR altitude and airspace?

Would seem that he did not have a right to that altitude. OP was headed SW (even 1000 +500) at 4500. An aircraft pproaching from right front would have been on easterly course (odd 1000 +500) and should have been at 3500 or 5500 ft.

Dave
 
Would seem that he did not have a right to that altitude. OP was headed SW (even 1000 +500) at 4500. An aircraft pproaching from right front would have been on easterly course (odd 1000 +500) and should have been at 3500 or 5500 ft.

Dave

Remember the hemispherical rule is only 3500 AGL and up (or is it 3000?). I don't know the terrain level where this occurred, but out West we can be needing oxygen before this odd/even deal applies.
 
Remember the hemispherical rule is only 3500 AGL and up (or is it 3000?). I don't know the terrain level where this occurred, but out West we can be needing oxygen before this odd/even deal applies.

And it is for cruising altitudes. It doesn't apply when climbing, descending or maneuvering in VMC conditions. See and avoid.

:cool:
 
Why US?

How do you know this wasn't a Canadian C-130? BTW, when investigated, most "holy cr@p, I could count the rivets" encounters turn out to be in the thousands of feet of separation.
 
well, there's a big beaver on the side eh!

Lockheed C-130 Hercules mfg. United States USA tactical transport / fixed-wing search and rescue 1964?1997
CC-130E 8 Stationed at 8 Wing Trenton,
CC-130H 6 stationed 14 Wing Greenwood
CC-130H-30 2 stationed
CC-130T 5 17 Wing Winnipeg.
One B,[6] five E and three H aircraft lost to crashes.
Eleven of nineteen remaining E models have been retired due to airframe life limits.
[7] E models are being replaced with CC-130J Super Hercules, while H models will continue until 2017 in the Search and Rescue role.

currently all aircraft are grounded due to a faulty Tim Horton's coffee maker, p/n 1029283-1a on back-order, expected ship date; 1-11-2014
 
You seemed more indignant because it was Canadian airspace. Just judging by the capital letters. I have come to understand that as a species, we are all just about the same. Some of us pay attention, some of us don't.
Glad you were watching out... as we all should. I know that I have over reacted when my wife got scared by something.... and the same situation would have been "cool to see" had I been alone. It is our sensitive side I think.
 
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