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Rudder Pedal SB Revision 2

MWH265

Well Known Member
I have my new rudder pedals and am about to dig in. Vans says it's a 6-hour job. Does that sound about right? I realize it depends on what obstacles may be in the way. Did the new bars "fit" without much modification? Also, does it matter which bar is in front of the other, left or right? I believe mine were put in opposite of the plans. Should I change it?

Thanks in advance,
Mike
 
Here’s a pic of mine during build up prior to installation in my current RV6 build -

BC0AA5A8-E760-476B-852B-E9F7793045B3.jpg

Upside down of course……. Sorry, you get the idea….
 
I have my new rudder pedals and am about to dig in. Vans says it's a 6-hour job. Does that sound about right? I realize it depends on what obstacles may be in the way. Did the new bars "fit" without much modification? Also, does it matter which bar is in front of the other, left or right? I believe mine were put in opposite of the plans. Should I change it?

Thanks in advance,
Mike

The orientation of the bars matters, as I recall. Can't remember why. Hopefully, someone will come along soon with certainty and a reason.

I would tell you that it should take 30 minutes to pull your old bars, an hour to reconfigure the pedals and brake cylinders, and another 30 minutes to reinstall. Double that, 'cause I'm always optimistic, and I get 4 hours.

Here's the key, IMO. Once you unbolt the rudder weldment blocks, slide the assembly as far AFT (not forward) as you can to get as much side to side free play as possible (the fuselage gets wider farther aft) That will let you remove the UHMW blocks on the ends so you can more easily remove the weldments. Reverse the process to reinstall..
 
I have my new rudder pedals and am about to dig in. Vans says it's a 6-hour job. Does that sound about right? I realize it depends on what obstacles may be in the way. Did the new bars "fit" without much modification? Also, does it matter which bar is in front of the other, left or right? I believe mine were put in opposite of the plans. Should I change it?

Thanks in advance,
Mike

As you can see from the pictures below, the two weldments have different lengths. The short one goes towards the firewall. You can also see that the longer (back) one has the left rudder cable connected to it.

Before you remove your old weldments make sure they were installed properly. If not, you will have trouble mounting your pedals on the new parts.
rudder weldments.PNG rudder side.PNG
 
Thanks

Thanks for the insight. I think this shouldn't be too bad. Hopefully no more than a long day.

Mike
 
I am in the middle of tackling the rudder pedal modification on my RV-6A. That is, I've finally gotten the whole rudder pedal assembly out of the airplane. It was not fun or easy. Van's Service Bulletin says to expect 6 hours to do the whole job. Good luck! I've got at least that much time just getting the assembly out.

I started by removing anything in the way of being able to position myself under the panel.Then I removed the brake lines, rudder cables, F-6115 Center Bearing Bushing, and anything else that kept me from removing the bolts from the F-6116 Side Bearing Bushings. I only have brakes installed on the left side pedals and was able the leave the brake pedals and master cylinders attached during removal.

After removing the Side Bushing bolts, I could not get the assembly to swing out so it could be removed from the plane. I tried moving the whole assembly as far aft as possible to gain more side clearance. I tried moving one end forward and the other aft. I tried twisting the two tubes so one was almost on top of the other. Nothing would give me enough clearance to swing the assembly out or to remove even one of the Side Bushings.

I thought about different things I could try. The easiest would have been to cut the cross tubes in half, then buy new ones (ouch!). They are now $163 each and presently on backorder. If you are planning on purchasing new ones with the gussets already welded on, cutting would be the easiest solution. I finally came up with the idea of cutting the Side Bushings (they're cheap) so that I could remove the tubes from the bushings giving me extra clearance..

I decided to use a vibrating multi-tool with a new wood saw blade attached. Before starting, I cut a piece of .032 aluminum sheet, much larger than the block, to slip between the fuselage skin and the bushings to protect the fuselage skin. Then, I positioned a Side Bushing so I could carefully make 45 degree cuts at the corners of the aft end of the bushing, straight in toward the fuselage skin,. The idea is to expose the sides of the tube. I had to cut a little remaining nylon (or whatever the bushings are made of) afterward. If you try this, don't push too hard. Concentrate on carefully controlling the tool and let the blade do the cutting work. Take your time! I was then able to push the end of the tube out of the bushing. Same with the other end of the bushing to release the forward tube. I still could not swing the cross tubes free, so I started on the other side. Finally, after releasing just the aft cross tube on the other side, I was able to remove one cross tube at a time out of the plane.

After having the gussets welded on, I envision again not having enough side clearance to get the pre-assembled assembly back in place. Splitting the F-6116 bushings, like what was done to the F-6115 center bushing, seems to be the best solution. Remember that it matters which way the bushings face, as the cross tube holes are not drilled straight into the bushings. I'll have to get creative to match the bolt holes already in the longerons to the bolt holes I'll have to drill in the new bushings. I think I will drill a bolt hole, as per the plans, in the forward end of the bushings first before cutting it in half horizontally. I'll lay the bottom half of each bushing on the longerons first, secure its back and forth movement by inserting a bolt into the drilled hole, then position the cross tubes into place (shortest tube forward). Then I can mark, or possibly partially drill in-place, the aft bolt hole in the bushing using the bolt hole already in the longeron as a guide. Remember that washers must be placed on the bolts, at the split, before bolting down the top half of the bushings to make up for the material removed during the cut. This helps keep the holes round.

Not a simple modification to perform, to be sure, but an important one.
 
Takes Forever

I just completed my pedal reinforcement in my RV-6 yesterday. The right pedal bar goes forward, the left pedal/bar aft. They are a bear to get out, and you need to mark the nylon blocks so you can put them back in the same way they came out.

What made a huge difference in getting them back in way easier was to saw the side blocks in half, and then replace what the kerf of the saw took out with washers (thin or thick depending on your saw blade, I used a thin bandsaw). Also, it helps to align the washers with a bolt and super glue the washers down so you aren't fighting that too when reinstalling. Then, it's a matter of inserting them back in.

When I got them out, the hardest thing was getting enough room side to side to get the block off the end of the 2 bars, since getting 2 bars maneuvered out was way harder.

All in I think the job was closer to 20 hours, but while I waited on a friend to weld them up for me, I did a small panel upgrade.

I ordered the replacement pedals on January 11, since mine had completely broken (do the SB!), but they are _still_ on backorder, so I had mine repaired and reinforced instead, and will monitor until I get the Van's ones.
 
rudder peddle assembly pain

I have a 1991 RV-6 kit and I followed the plans that said to cut the support blocks in half before you put them in.
Now to my problem I have solved.
I can guarantee it took longer than 6 hours to take R and R the peddles out of my RV-6A
Mostly because I didn't build it. The builder didn't see it necessary to cut the blocks in half. Also ran stuff under the peddle pipes.
It was a holy @&#& day. VERY hard to get the peddle assemblies out with solid bearing blocks.
I felt like I was going to have cut a hole in the fuse or cut the the assemblies in half and buy new.
I got it done and Russ welded them up and did a great job.
Art
 
Ruder Pedal SB

I had the welding done locally and had a local mechanic re-install. I was trying to share photos, but could not get them to upload.
 
Rudder pedal mod. welding

Here is a photo of my rudder pedal mod. after the gussets were attached. I am not a welder and chose to hire it done by a locally well known professional welder.
He indicated he was reluctant to "weld" the gussets on because of their thinness and because of the material (4130 chromoly). According to him, welding the thin 4130, which includes melting the base metal, could produce too much heat and compromise the original welds, likely causing them or the surrounding area to become brittle. He suggested that he TIG braze the gussets on using silicon-bronze rod and, even then, use copper heat sinks to help quickly carry away some of the heat. Brazing requires less heat because the base material does not have to be melted. When asked about the strength of the brazing, he said that as long as the gussets were brazed all the way around, it would be plenty strong. I agreed to his recommendation. I'm not suggesting that everyone should do this, but am suggesting that there appears to be more to this than just grabbing your Harbor Freight wire feed MIG welder and going at it.
 

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2 hours welding

A local welder TIG'd and then normalized my pedals, I agree one probably wouldn't try to do this oneself with MIG. The welding job took 2 hours including getting the free finger patches from Vans to fit closely.

When I install the rudder pedals I plan to split the outside bearing blocks, same as per the central one. Instead of inserting a washer to replace the sawed out material I make a small square tab washer with a bend in it from .025 or .032, this is much easier to insert than a round washer. Note the blocks in the pic are 1 inch thick, made locally, so as to get a better fit than the part which came in the kit (it had misaligned holes).
 

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Long wait for new assemblies.

I ordered new rudder pedal bars last September and I still haven’t received them. I was told, last October, they were at the powder coat shop and would be ready second week of November. Last December I was told to expect delivery the first week of February. I’m probably just as surprised as Vans how many -6s didn’t have the gussets on the rudder pedals! Hopefully, these parts are almost done and a big batch was produced.

I’m rebuilding an -6A and have the whole plane apart. Wings, empennage, interior, canopy, etc are removed. Nothing in the way of removing the rudder bars except the airframe. And there was not enough play to remove the bars. The fiberglass air scoops were in the way. And the UMHV side blocks weren’t split. So the sawzall was used to remove the bars. :-( I had 5 people trying to get them out. Between us; two A&Ps, one IA, one EAA tech counselor, one machinist, one bronze Lindy RV-7 builder, one RV-4 builder & one RV-8 builder. I’m not any of those. They weren’t coming out without cutting the bars or cutting the fuselage!

The machinist will slice the UMHV side brackets before putting the new bars back in. No saw kerf. I’m now at a place in the project when I can put the rudder assembly back in. Hopefully they arrive soon.
 
A local welder TIG'd and then normalized my pedals, I agree one probably wouldn't try to do this oneself with MIG. The welding job took 2 hours including getting the free finger patches from Vans to fit closely.

When I install the rudder pedals I plan to split the outside bearing blocks, same as per the central one. Instead of inserting a washer to replace the sawed out material I make a small square tab washer with a bend in it from .025 or .032, this is much easier to insert than a round washer. Note the blocks in the pic are 1 inch thick, made locally, so as to get a better fit than the part which came in the kit (it had misaligned holes).

Good idea for the washers. But your blocks don’t appear to have the stops to keep your rudder bars from working back and forth against the fuselage skins, possibly denting them in time. Also, remember the original blocks did not have the holes drilled straight in for a purpose. They were slightly angled so, when aligned properly, the bars would not bind when installed. This was done because the fuselage, and the position of the blocks, widens as it goes from front to back in this area. Can’t tell from your picture if your blocks have the angled holes.
 
This thread is scaring the heck out of me. I'm looking to pull my rudder pedals out to comply with this SB while I've got the panel out for upgrade, but I'm getting worried now about my ability to get the pedals in and out of the airplane.
 
Good idea for the washers. But your blocks don’t appear to have the stops to keep your rudder bars from working back and forth against the fuselage skins, possibly denting them in time. Also, remember the original blocks did not have the holes drilled straight in for a purpose. They were slightly angled so, when aligned properly, the bars would not bind when installed. This was done because the fuselage, and the position of the blocks, widens as it goes from front to back in this area. Can’t tell from your picture if your blocks have the angled holes.

Thanks, this is the central block with the perpendicular holes all the way through and is mounted on the bracket in the middle of the firewall. The two outer blocks have angled holes that go only part way through so as to retain the ends of the tubes.
The reason I could not use the central block that came in the kit is that the holes were drilled too far apart compared to the holes in the end block. Forcing the central block into position caused the tubes to bind. I measured the dimensions of that block and it did not match the plans, so it was a defective part. It was easier to make a new one, rather than order a replacement from Vans, due to the hassle of international shipping.
 
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This thread is scaring the heck out of me. I'm looking to pull my rudder pedals out to comply with this SB while I've got the panel out for upgrade, but I'm getting worried now about my ability to get the pedals in and out of the airplane.

I recommend buying some spare outer blocks to have on hand as replacements in case you need to sacrifice the existing ones to get the rudder pedals out. It is just possible to get the pedals out of my fuselage by twisting them a certain way. But I have no NACA air vents installed in the sides. If they are installed, then this would make it impossible, as they would be in the way. When you go to re-install the tubes, make sure to split the blocks and then it will be easy (relatively) to get them in.
 
But I have no NACA air vents installed in the sides. If they are installed, then this would make it impossible, as they would be in the way. When you go to re-install the tubes, make sure to split the blocks and then it will be easy (relatively) to get them in.

It is probably installation dependent, but I have the NACA ducts and was able to get the rudder bars out and back in without any damage. It just took finding the right geometry. I think I also flexed the fuselage skins slightly. Sometimes you really need that extra 1/8”.
 
I recommend buying some spare outer blocks to have on hand as replacements in case you need to sacrifice the existing ones to get the rudder pedals out. It is just possible to get the pedals out of my fuselage by twisting them a certain way. But I have no NACA air vents installed in the sides. If they are installed, then this would make it impossible, as they would be in the way. When you go to re-install the tubes, make sure to split the blocks and then it will be easy (relatively) to get them in.

I keep seeing references to a kit. All I got in the mail from Vans was the gussets and it seems like there should have been some blocks included, too?
 
Only gussets

I keep seeing references to a kit. All I got in the mail from Vans was the gussets and it seems like there should have been some blocks included, too?

Only the gussets come in the SB kit from Van's, the block referenced in these posts are the existing blocks on your current rudder pedals. Most of us, if not already done, once we have the pedals out, go ahead and split the blocks so getting them back in and out in the future is way easier.

When removing the rudder pedals for the first time, mark the blocks so that the orientation can be set the same going back in, whether or not you split them. The fuselage narrows where they sit, and the builder may have drilled the holes slightly off, so they end up being very specific about where the holes end up on each one.
 
It is probably installation dependent, but I have the NACA ducts and was able to get the rudder bars out and back in without any damage. It just took finding the right geometry. I think I also flexed the fuselage skins slightly. Sometimes you really need that extra 1/8”.

I believe that is correct.
I have worked on a number of RV-6A's, removing, installing the pedals and it was doable but the blocks had to be removed from the ends to get them past the ribs.
Once in place, they could be maneuvered to allow placing the block on each end and then get them in place on the longitudinal angles.
 
Easier reassembly

A couple of things I will try to make assembly easier, besides splitting the end blocks, are: 1. Drill out the bolt holes in the blocks using a #10 drill. This is .006 larger than the 3/16 called for. This should make installing the bolts through the nylon blocks much easier, rather than trying to wrench them in in the uncomfortable position I will be in. 2. I will use castle nuts with cotter pins on the bolts rather than nylon lock nuts for the same reason.
 
Removal Sequence on My 6A

After reading all the posts on this thread, I assumed the position with a lot of apprehensions, head first with my back bent over the wing spar. First, everything in the way or attached had to be removed. In my case, this included:
- throttle quadrant lowered
- brake cylinders removed from the rudder pedals and down tube ears and pushed up and forward of the cross over tubes
- rudder cable linkages removed from outer down tube ears
- Right side vent hose removed
I left the individual rudder pedals attached for the entire process.

Next, the AN-3 bolts (6) securing the mounting saddle blocks to the fuselage structure were completely removed from the blocks otherwise the blocks would not be able to slide under the NACA vents. The center saddle mount halves were removed at this point and their orientation was labeled.

The sequence to move the tubes for removal was as follows:
- the left side saddle block and tubes were moved as far forward as they would go.
- the right side saddle block and tubes were moved as far aft as possible (at this point the right block was still not able to be removed).
- the left side saddle block and tubes were pushed up as far as they would go. (This provides enough clearance on the right side saddle block to clear the upright vertical structure. A little twisting of the right saddle block clock-wise a quarter of a turn provided ample clearance to remove the entire assembly.

Locations of control cables for heat control boxes, parking brakes, and other components can cause issues or dictate which assembly side gets pushed and which gets pulled. My cables were on the left side dictating that the right side block had to get pulled out first.

These steps took 45 minutes to complete. I’m heading to the welder tomorrow.

I’m hoping to reinstall by just reversing the sequence. Reassembly may be complicated by the finger gussets on the left rudder tube assembly causing limited spacing between the right rudder tube in front of it. This could limit the ability to twist the assembly – maybe not. I don’t see how the saddle blocks could be reinstalled (whole) independently of the tubes. Worse case, the saddle blocks can be cut in half and the tubes installed separately.

Keep in mind, your airplane may be totally unique requiring a different set of steps/sequences. As with most tasks on this year’s Condition Inspection, there was a lot more apprehension generated from reading these posts than actually doing the work. The fuel tank removal was another walk in the park. I’ll get back to you with a report on the installation when that is done. Good luck.

John
 
A couple of things I will try to make assembly easier, besides splitting the end blocks, are: 1. Drill out the bolt holes in the blocks using a #10 drill. This is .006 larger than the 3/16 called for. This should make installing the bolts through the nylon blocks much easier, rather than trying to wrench them in in the uncomfortable position I will be in. 2. I will use castle nuts with cotter pins on the bolts rather than nylon lock nuts for the same reason.

The plans specifying the use of a #10 drill is not to make loose fit holes... it is to make a properly sized hole.
When drilling UHMW material, it is just fluid enough that it expands when penetrated by the drill. It then contracts when the drill is removed and you end up with an under sized hole. If the hole is drilled with a #10 bit, the resulting hole is very close to the hole size normally made in other materials using a #12 bit.
 
Did some RV6A rudder pedals come with the upgrade at some point? The SB seems to mention "Check to see if your rudder pedal has gussets installed"? Won't be out to the plane for a bit, but I think I ordered my finish kit in 2002 ish? (Right at the end of RV6 production).

Cheers,

Kurt
 
Gussets or not?

If you get the new ones and they have the gussets just scream YES!!!! I'm almost sure your 2001 bars will will have them. I bought a set around the same time.
As far as getting them out with solid end blocks. It is possible. I did it.
However putting them back in with solid blocks ain't gonna happen.
Removing them with the NACA installed is possible. Anyway I did. But if the vents aren't riveted in, But were glued in with Proseal, you can slice them out real easy.
Just remove anything in the way and go for it.
Not a short day, But doable.
Your luck may vary Art
 
As with most tasks on this year’s Condition Inspection, there was a lot more apprehension generated from reading these posts than actually doing the work.

I removed mine today, and while some have obviously had difficulty, mine came out rather easily. . . and I thought I was facing a worse case scenario. The builder had applied this awful foam and aluminum foil sound insulation all over the firewall and side skins that does NOT want to come off! This, and a riveted NACA duct in the way. Anyway, the worse part was getting to the 6 nuts and bolts while standing on my head and a spar under my back. Other than that, I was greatly relieved it was a non-event. So please don’t put off this SB because of the horror stories you read here. The issue is serious, and very real. I phoned an RV6 owner friend of mine the other day to ask if he had done his mod yet. He informed that he had done it 10 years ago when the pedal broke on taxi out. DO THE MOD!
 
Not That Difficult

I did mine last July/Aug.

Removing: the hardest part was the position you have to be in to do the work. I did not have to take anything else apart. Easy removal: unbolt and carefully rotate as they come from underneath the panel. Split center block on mine. Mark each of the nylon blocks either Pass or Pilot with top block marked on top edge.

I used a lumbar foam back pad for placing on an office chair. This pad was laid down in the passenger seat well. It supported the back and ribs from the spar.

Mine were out in 45-minutes.

It took 1.5 hours to install and the professional weld shop did the welding in 2-hours.

Hardest part of the install: Lining up the brakes using the correct thickness washers. Mine had different thickness that needed to be placed correctly.

Before doing anything photo helped. Wish I had zoomed in on them to see better. Finally figured it out. Brakes wouldn't move, like a hard stop, until lined up.

Mine were starting to fail, paint chipping, visible cracks at 1024hours on the Hobbs. The right pedal was the worst.

I work at a welding supply store. I bought a crack detection kit from work to verify if any other cracks needed fixed. 3-part spray can dye penetrant kit.

Mike
 
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Finally Did It

I finally bit the bullet and completed the job. Taking them out was not easy. Twisting the bars so the bearing blocks were up/down with the bars pushed one side forward the other back helped getting them out. Switched over all the pedals and reservoirs. I did the bolt mod using the AN3-56 bolts (12 bucks each) on the pedals. I fought to get them back in for quite awhile with no joy. I wound up splitting the block on the right side and they went in in about 2 minutes.

Everything seems smoother now. Not that the swap was supposed to achieve that. About 8 hours total.

Also upgraded to Viton O-rings on the brake pucks and synthetic brake fluid that Vans is now recommending. Haven't flown it yet, still finishing up the condition inspection. Very close inspection of the old bars showed no cracking. 600+ hours on them. I guess they are hangar art now.

Thanks for posting ideas and good luck to those that next tackle the job.
 
excellent work and pics

Lemerc,

Post #10,

Thanks for posting the pic. Excellent welding.

Charlie
 
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I just wanted to update my experience with the rudder mod. The job is finally done! The biggest obstacle I faced turned out to be finding a competent welder who could deal with these thin tubes. The first guy I went to came highly recommended by a local pilot. Supposedly, this guy could weld anything. He was a professional welder, and machinist. It turned out, he had so many problems, and made so many excuses, that he finally gave up. He recommended another guy, also a professional. After 3 days, that guy reported that the material was just too thin! Thankfully, he knew enough to stop before he did any damage. I finally went to a local RV pilot who I knew was an excellent welder, and who I hoped could at least give me a good recommendation. He told me to bring them over, that he had already done a couple of sets. He saved the day, and did a wonderful job.

My message is to not take your rudder pedals to just any welder, professional or otherwise. Someone could be a fine welder, but not have any experience with a thin wall, enclosed tubular assembly like this. My friend noted that on these closed tubes, it's important to drill a small hole to allow the internal pressure to relieve as the part heats up. I don't think any of the other guys knew this.

Getting the assembly back in the plane was easy, once I split the end blocks. Since I got them out, I figured they'd go back in the same way without doing this. I quickly gave up and cut them.
 
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