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Ice

rwarre

Well Known Member
Ok now I am stuck in Rock Hill(uza) until the temps and runway gets better. Need some education about flying out possibly tomorrow. High expected to be 44 degrees. Should I worry about wings icing up heading west at 8000 ft. Any other info greatly appreciated. I thought this area didn’t get snow. I came out for the warm weather.
 
Should I worry about wings icing up heading west at 8000 ft. Any other info greatly appreciated. I thought this area didn’t get snow. I came out for the warm weather.
Hmm. Where to start. Did you get a weather briefing before deciding to fly to SC this past weekend? Did you know that there was a major snow and ice event bearing down on the area? And you are now wondering if you can get some education on icing conditions? :eek:
 
Icing

As long as one is not in visible moisture, or at an air temperature above freezing, one should remain ice free. Just my opinion, use it at your own risk.
 
Yup. I squeeked back home just as front coming through central ohio. Dicey for sure. Forcast was off quite a bit. Saw the pressure dropping rapidly on the way back to base and hit warp speed. Was definitely on the edge. Next time, watch the weather a little bit more!! 10min later, might have had different outcome.
Fly safe friends.
 
Ok now I am stuck in Rock Hill(uza) until the temps and runway gets better. Need some education about flying out possibly tomorrow. High expected to be 44 degrees. Should I worry about wings icing up heading west at 8000 ft. Any other info greatly appreciated. I thought this area didn’t get snow. I came out for the warm weather.

I say this with all due respect...but if you feel the need to ask this question you don't have the training to even begin to contemplate flying where ice is a remote possibility. Park the plane and drive home if necessary....stay safe to fly another day. :)
 
As long as one is not in visible moisture, or at an air temperature above freezing, one should remain ice free. Just my opinion, use it at your own risk.

"Local" conditions on your airframe where high velocities make low pressure areas => local ice formation even if the ambient temp is above 32 degF. Make sure you give yourself some margin. Just saying.
 
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Ok now I am stuck in Rock Hill(uza) until the temps and runway gets better. Need some education about flying out possibly tomorrow. High expected to be 44 degrees. Should I worry about wings icing up heading west at 8000 ft. Any other info greatly appreciated. I thought this area didn’t get snow. I came out for the warm weather.

You should have good weather heading Westbound. If they plow the airport you should be able to get out this afternoon. You need visible moisture and below freezing temps to pick up ice. It’s going to be mostly clear heading west. If your aircraft was not hangared I would advocate getting it into a heated hangar for several hours before departing. With the wind and combination of sleet, snow, freezing rain and ice pellets it’s a good way to insure no ice is hiding somewhere.
 
Thanks

Glad for all the advice. Most of the stuff I was aware of. Just making sure I covered all my bases.
 
Currently reading a book about ferry pilot adventures. One technique used when ferrying, when loaded up with ice, was to fly so close the water the salt spray from waves would wash over and deice you.

Since you're not navigating the North Atlantic, I wouldn't fly.

Seriously though, I wouldn't unless you can pick a safe altitude at least couple degrees above freezing. Even then, always have an out incase something unforeseen happens...higher, lower or laterally. Your flight planning should have a healthy dose of airmass study and temperatures aloft along your route of flight.

Here's what I know about icing...
  1. Visible moisture must be present
  2. The temperature of the collecting surface must be at or below freezing, the OATs only relevance is that it effects the temperature of said surface

However, the above doesn't guarantee ice. The severity of the ice ( NIL-Extreme) depends on many factors, but the most likely environment to be conducive will be near 32F with an airmass containing enough water by volume to produce precipitation...rain and drizzle being the worst.

If you can find it, NASA has some fantastic videos dedicated to inflight icing, and they contain valuable information if you care to dive into it whilst firmly grounded. One of the more interesting things found that freezing drizzle produces significantly more icing that freezing rain due to quantity of water per air volume.
 
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Currently reading a book about ferry pilot adventures. One technique used when ferrying, when loaded up with ice, was to fly so close the water the salt spray from waves would wash over and deice you.

Since you're not navigating the North Atlantic, I wouldn't fly.

Seriously though, I wouldn't unless you can pick a safe altitude at least couple degrees above freezing. Even then, always have an out incase something unforeseen happens...higher, lower or laterally. Your flight planning should have a healthy dose of airmass study and temperatures aloft along your route of flight.

Here's what I know about icing...
  1. Visible moisture must be present
  2. The temperature of the collecting surface must be at or below freezing, the OATs only relevance is that it effects the temperature of said surface

I would like to add #3.. icing seems to need a “ Lifting action” to form, like within cumulus clouds. If there’s no rising air, it doesn’t seem to form ice. Also icing seems to be the worst right at the tops of the cloud. E we used to have an “Ice Detector” on one jet I flew, and we used to call it the “Tops Detector”, as it would indicate as we got close to the tops of the clouds!
 
I would like to add #3.. icing seems to need a “ Lifting action” to form, like within cumulus clouds. If there’s no rising air, it doesn’t seem to form ice. Also icing seems to be the worst right at the tops of the cloud. E we used to have an “Ice Detector” on one jet I flew, and we used to call it the “Tops Detector”, as it would indicate as we got close to the tops of the clouds!

Not true. It can and does form there but can also form with little to no "lifting action"

As was previously posted, visible moisture and temperature are the main requirements...and it can and does form above 32 degrees.
 
Near the bottom of a stratus layer often contains light freezing drizzle. This freezing drizzle usually sublimates before reaching the ground, so isn't reported by nearby airports. It's particularly insidious when scud running low level, because there is no "out". The options are climb into the cloud where even more icing exists, and praying to reach the cloud tops before falling out of the sky. Or descend even lower hoping the freezing drizzle lessens before reaching the ground. It's killed many pilots in Canada’s north.

If the ceiling isn't a couple thousand feet, or can't stay comfortably in air that's 40°F or warmer, the ground is where one wants to be.
 
This book wouldn't happen to be Air Vagabond?

Rubber Suits & Lukewarm Soup

Recommend by a close friend who had the author as an instructor at UPS. He actually used the salt spray technique successfully in one of his near-death experiences
 
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I’m amazed!!

It’s a wonder we don’t have more accidents. It’s clear there needs to be better weather education.
 
Sam B and RV8iator nailed it.

US gov't made an RW icing intro film that has a lot of info useful to RV altitudes and weather. https://youtu.be/NfLE-EcnrVQ
Practical lesson to the previous gov't video here: https://youtu.be/mc3U_qAxOcc
In addition to David Z's low layers often having drizzle warning, my own experience is that the layers close to the cloud tops are where I have encountered the highest ice accretion rates.

Never fly in freezing rain, not even if you have 2 turbofans on the back end with hot leading edges.

You can be in air that is a few degrees above zero and get iced up very rapidly with super cooled rain drops. Or if you have cold soaked wings and fuel tanks from flight in very cold air, you can then ice up rapidly in warm moist air.

The easiest option is to just avoid it and enjoy a few hours or days in a motel or with friends.
 
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true

"...The easiest option is to just avoid it and enjoy a few hours or days in a motel or with friends..."

That is the best statement so far.
 
...and let's note the fellow was asking for advice, the first step toward safe flying.
 
back ok

I made it back to Colorado, no problems. What I thought from the get go was that the air was warmer as I went higher. Even though the temp at take off was 30 degrees, once the wings were clear and dry, it was smooth flying. Clear and warm made good conditions. As others have stated much needed weather education flying would be helpful. AOPA and FAA has great info and that needs to be on a pilot's learning agenda. Thanks to all that offered advice.
 
If you don’t fly in visible moisture in temperatures below 5 degrees Celsius you will remain ice free. I fly my RV by this rule because I’ve observed ice while flying other airplanes that are certified for ice. No problems so far. I have been delayed 7 days waiting for acceptable conditions on one trip though. The RV can do a lot of things the kerosene burners cannot do, but ice is not one of them. To those that need to fly in those conditions, you need a different airplane. I’m happy rwarre made it home safely and your decision to wait and seek out advice was very wise! Sorry my timing was off, but using the visible moisture and 5 degrees rule will keep you and anyone else reading this out of the ice.
 
help

If you don’t fly in visible moisture in temperatures below 5 degrees Celsius you will PROBABLY remain ice free. I fly my RV by this rule because I’ve observed ice while flying other airplanes that are certified for ice. No problems so far. I have been delayed 7 days waiting for acceptable conditions on one trip though. The RV can do a lot of things the kerosene burners cannot do, but ice is not one of them. To those that need to fly in those conditions, you need a different airplane. I’m happy rwarre made it home safely and your decision to wait and seek out advice was very wise! Sorry my timing was off, but using the visible moisture and 5 degrees rule will PROBABLY keep you and anyone else reading this out of the ice.

Added a conditional. I have been in icing conditions where the temp was above 5C, visible moisture, and ice was forming...yes, the aircraft was FIKI capable.
 
Anyone whose been flying actual imc for years knows there are very few, if any, hard and fast rules that apply to icing, except one. It can hurt you.
Educate yourself, always have an out and be safe.
 
This was over 20 years ago so some of my recollections are a little vague. I was based in Bullhead City AZ, flying air ambulance in a pressurized and known ice equipped piston twin. I had gotten a preliminary weather briefing and decided that I was ok to the south and east but not to the west. I was pre flighting the airplane and doing a runup. There was an RV6A parked on the right. A man and woman got in the RV and took off. I remember thinking "I hope they are not going to the coast". Well they were going to San Diego area and didn't make it. Iced up somewhere north of Julian VOR and literally fell out of the sky.
I did not meet them or talk to them.
 
I've only been truly scared in an airplane three times. Two of those were because of ice. Respect it.
 
Don't know where you are, or where you are going. VFR? Stay out of clouds or visible moisture with Temps below 32F. If you are a brave SE single pilot IFR warrior and find you pick up ice change altitude preferably climb immediately. ICE conditions can exceed the capability of even large turbine aircraft.
 
A lot of great points, and good on you for coming here to ask! In regards to tools one can use to determine if you will be flying through icing conditions is Foreflight's Icing overlay which allows you to change the altitude and observe the icing and severity. I have found it to be pretty accurate. A great tool in my book to accompany the general rules posted previously in this post. Educate yourself as much as possible.

If you fly into those conditions you will get icing, and you will not be happy. In addition to the actual affect it has on your aircraft's ability to fly, it also will task saturate you pretty quickly while you are most likely in IMC. Depending on your experience, your bucket will get full fast.

Speaking of fast, this stuff can form alarmingly quick (faster the higher up from my experience). Recently flew through icing in a fighter just momentarily and canopy was iced over to the point of not being able to see out of it in a matter of 2 seconds with snow cones on the tips of my stores!

Safe flying!
 
I’ve been watching this post with great interest, because in my flying career airframe icing has been my biggest concern. I have been scared early on - more from ice, or the likelihood of ice - than any other other gotcha’s (thunderstorms). You can usually get out of the icing layer by climbing or descending, but you need to do it quickly, and you need to have the capability to do so. A turbojet engine helps here, a Lycoming….. not so much. One thing I know - you can’t get airframe icing if you are not in visible moisture (clouds, rain, snow, etc) and in icing conditions. What is icing conditions? Airframe icing conditions - visible moisture and OAT <+5C. Engine icing can occur earlier - visible moisture, icing conditions as previously stated, or temp/dew point spread of <10C.
Our RV’s aren’t good at handling ice. If you have a fuel injected engine, you have a slight margin in terms of engine icing, but the effects are less visible.
Our fat RV wings aren’t good at carrying ice. Drag builds quickly. It doesn’t matter if it’s clear ice or rime. In fact rime may be worse because of the negative aerodynamic effects. I’ve seen this twice in my RV’s, and we don’t always have the variable altitude capability to deal with it. And don’t forget, we are not legally capable to fly in known meteorological icing conditions in our airplanes. What is “known meteorological icing conditions”? - Any forecast or known (PIREPS) inflight icing conditions that exists on your planned route of flight at the altitudes you are likely to encounter along your route.
Since none of us has a system that allows flight into known icings conditions, we need to be careful when dealing with possible ice. If you are flying through a cloud when the temp is below freezing, especially moist - high dew point- you are likely to get airframe ice. Engine induction icing is just as likely in these conditions and will be a little more insidious.
Be careful out there. You can build an RV that will fly a low visibility approach to minimums - automatically - but you still can’t legally, or safely, fly that airplane in known or forecast icing conditions. For good reason.
 
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