VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   RV General Discussion/News (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Question about ?NX? on N Number. (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=99816)

chazking 05-17-2013 09:52 AM

N-Number Character?
 
All, I'm applying my n-number (N1XS) shortly. Many of you know the regs well and wondered if I could use the following:?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yo4vnc&s=5

Mike S 05-17-2013 09:58 AM

That does not fit in with the guidelines that are published in the EAA registration kit. But, there are many planes out there that do not fit the guidelines for the N number.

Are you going to use a DAR, or an FAA inspector??? A DAR might let you pass on it, but pretty sure a FAA guy will not. Talk to your inspector first.

Are you going to paint the plane before or after the inspection???

Simple vinyl numbers on an un painted plane will get you by, and then when doing the painting you could make an "adjustment" to the design;) but it could still get noticed by a ramp check or similar.

Mel 05-17-2013 09:59 AM

NO, You may not!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chazking (Post 771593)
All, I'm applying my n-number (N1XS) shortly. Many of you know the regs well and wondered if I could use the following:?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yo4vnc&s=5

Ref part 45.21 through 45.29
Roman block numbers and letters, no ornamentation, etc.

Mel 05-17-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike S (Post 771597)
That does not fit in with the guidelines that are published in the EAA registration kit.Are you going to use a DAR, or an FAA inspector??? A DAR might let you pass on it, but pretty sure a FAA guy will not. Talk to your inspector first.
Are you going to paint the plane before or after the inspection???
Simple vinyl numbers on an un painted plane will get you by, and then when doing the painting you could make an "adjustment" to the design;)

If a DAR lets this pass, he is not doing his job. A DAR works under the exact same regulations as the FAA.
Changing the numbers after inspection does NOT make it legal.

Just as an aside, inspectors on our area are beginning to crack down on some of these "illegal" N numbering procedures.

John Clark 05-17-2013 10:05 AM

To expand on Mel's response, here is the wording from AC 45-2D on the subject:

N-Number Legibility. The N-number is required to be legible and written in capital Roman style letters without any ornamentation. You may use shading or a border only if it makes the number more legible.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Low Pass 05-17-2013 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771599)
If a DAR lets this pass, he is not doing his job. A DAR works under the exact same regulations as the FAA.
Changing the numbers after inspection does NOT make it legal.

Just as an aside, inspectors on our area are beginning to crack down on some of these "illegal" N numbering procedures.

And I understand that some at the now very large Department of Homeland Security have taken keen interest in people who misrepresent or intentionally alter registration numbers on aircraft, resulting in criminal (not civil action, but criminal) charges. As we saw with the glider pilot in in South Carolina, the federal law enforcement might challenge someone in an extreme fashion should you not meet their impression of the standards.

craigvince 05-17-2013 10:18 AM

On the other hand,....
 
I would agree that it certainly does not meet the conventions of the regs, but I don't know who might catch it. If it were me, I'd probably paint the plane, but add the N# with vinyl lettering. Make a couple extra 1's and if anyone ever calls you on it, you can easily change it back to a 1.

Just my two cents worth.

chazking 05-17-2013 10:21 AM

N1XS Update
 
Gents, Thank you. As I expected. The plane is flying, but in for painting @ the moment.

vic syracuse 05-17-2013 11:57 AM

Bad advice
 
I have a hard time with the advice of doing one thing for the inspection and then changing it afterwards. All of us in Experimental aviation have an obligation to comply with the regs. Those who don't comply set a bad example for the rest of us and end up causing more rules.

az_gila 05-17-2013 12:04 PM

About the only font that is 100% legal on the line width and the character width is this USAF one...

http://www.dafont.com/amarillo-usaf.font


ChiefPilot 05-17-2013 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazking (Post 771593)
All, I'm applying my n-number (N1XS) shortly. Many of you know the regs well and wondered if I could use the following:?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yo4vnc&s=5

I got gigged on my inspection because the N-number decal, purchased from Aircraft Spruce specifically for this purpose, had the 'B' character 1/8" too narrow. Yes, the DAR pulled out a scale and measured.

I don't think the design is a good idea - even if you get it past the DAR, a later ramp check or similar might end in tears.

*ETA - I really appreciated the orientation to detail that he provided. If you're in the MN area, you'd do well to look up Tim Mahoney when it's time for your inspection.

mculver 05-17-2013 12:29 PM

You could make some legal 2" numbers, with these being additional "artwork". But I personally believe that doing it once, per regs, is the right answer.

rvbuilder2002 05-17-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefPilot (Post 771635)
I got gigged on my inspection because the N-number decal, purchased from Aircraft Spruce specifically for this purpose, had the 'B' character 1/8" too narrow. Yes, the DAR pulled out a scale and measured.

I don't think the design is a good idea - even if you get it past the DAR, a later ramp check or similar might end in tears.

*ETA - I really appreciated the orientation to detail that he provided. If you're in the MN area, you'd do well to look up Tim Mahoney when it's time for your inspection.

In a lot of different font styles (maybe all), it is very common for the letters of the alphabet to not all be the same hight.
Adjustments are made to some of the letters so that to our eye they all look the same size. Apparently, the large variation in shapes will trick out eye to thinking they are not the same hight, when they really are. This needs to be considered when ordering lettering.

az_gila 05-17-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 771648)
In a lot of different font styles (maybe all), it is very common for the letters of the alphabet to not all be the same hight.
Adjustments are made to some of the letters so that to our eye they all look the same size. Apparently, the large variation in shapes will trick out eye to thinking they are not the same hight, when they really are. This needs to be considered when ordering lettering.

Exactly, which is why you need a geometric font and not one that is visually corrected...:)

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...8&postcount=10

I challenge anyone to find another standard font that meets (exactly) the FAA letter width and stroke width requirements as the correct fraction of letter height.

ChiefPilot 05-17-2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 (Post 771648)
In a lot of different font styles (maybe all), it is very common for the letters of the alphabet to not all be the same hight.
Adjustments are made to some of the letters so that to our eye they all look the same size. Apparently, the large variation in shapes will trick out eye to thinking they are not the same hight, when they really are. This needs to be considered when ordering lettering.

This was ACS' N-number strip - not individually ordered characters.

But your point is well taken. Even ordering N-number decals from a well known supplier isn't a guarantee of accuracy.

vic syracuse 05-17-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mculver (Post 771638)
You could make some legal 2" numbers, with these being additional "artwork". But I personally believe that doing it once, per regs, is the right answer.

I am not aware of any legal 2" numbers. They need to be at least 3".

http://www.flightsimaviation.com/dat...art_45-29.html

VIc

AX-O 05-17-2013 02:15 PM

Question about ?NX? on N Number.
 
I am building an RV-4 and have been thinking about using the ?NX? on my N number to specify experimental. My question is this

When I use the N number during radio calls, do I say

November-one-two-three-alpha-bravo

Or

November-Xray-one-two-three-alpha-bravo

Or

Experimental November-one-two-three-alpha-bravo

Thanks for any help.

Mel 05-17-2013 02:21 PM

2" numbers may be used on the RV-3 and -4 per 45.22(b), but not the RV-10, as in this case.

Mel 05-17-2013 02:23 PM

When using the "NX" number on the aircraft, the "X" only replaces the 2" "experimental" placard.

The "X" does not show up in ANY paperwork, or within ANY radio communications.

AX-O 05-17-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771679)
The "X" does not show up in ANY paperwork, or within ANY radio communications.

Thank you Sir.

deek 05-17-2013 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771678)
2" numbers may be used on the RV-3 and -4 per 45.22(b), but not the RV-10, as in this case.

I thought the cut-off for 2" high numbers was 1983 and post '83 3" numbers were allowable for "cruise speeds" <180 knots and 12" numbers required for cruise >180 knots.??

Bruce 05-17-2013 03:29 PM

Placard
 
Mel,
Just for clarification.
Still need experimental 2 inch and other placard inside for passenger amateur built etc...

Thanks,

Boomer

Mel 05-17-2013 04:18 PM

NO!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce (Post 771699)
Mel,
Just for clarification.
Still need experimental 2 inch and other placard inside for passenger amateur built etc...
Thanks,
Boomer

The "X" in the N number replaces the 2" EXPERIMENTAL placard.
You do still need the passenger warning for the RV-4, but not for the -3.

Mel 05-17-2013 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deek (Post 771697)
I thought the cut-off for 2" high numbers was 1983 and post '83 3" numbers were allowable for "cruise speeds" <180 knots and 12" numbers required for cruise >180 knots.??

If the design is more than 30 years old, a newer aircraft is considered a "replica" and meets 45.22(b).

Bagarre 05-17-2013 05:10 PM

14 CFR Part 45
Identification and Registration Markings
Subpart C--Nationality and Registration Marks
Sec. 45.22 Exhibition, antique, and other aircraft: Special rules.

(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a
U.S.- registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been
issued under Sec. 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibition
aircraft
or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external
configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago
may be operated without displaying
marks in accordance with Secs. 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if:
(1) It displays in accordance with Sec. 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches
high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of
the Roman capital letter "N" followed by:
(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; .....


Doesnt say anything about when it was designed but when it was built.

deek 05-17-2013 05:30 PM

The Riverside FSDO made me remove the 2" N numbers from my March '83 registered LongEZ and install 3" high numbers. When I removed the O-235 and installed the O-320 in 1986 I fought with the FSDO regarding 12" high N numbers as we couldn't agree on the definition of "cruise speed". The FAA relented & the plane retained the 3" numbers as does the IO-360 powered '89 LimoEZ even though "cruise" is well in excess of 180 knots.

David Paule 05-17-2013 05:45 PM

It's a bit early but I'm taking notes!

Dave
RV-3B now on the wings

DonFromTX 05-17-2013 06:11 PM

Me too, this is the first I have heard of this. Does this mean I can just put an X in the number without a new registration? I am liking this!

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Paule (Post 771736)
It's a bit early but I'm taking notes!

Dave
RV-3B now on the wings


gasman 05-17-2013 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonFromTX (Post 771746)
Me too, this is the first I have heard of this. Does this mean I can just put an X in the number without a new registration? I am liking this!

Only if your plane is old enough.

flyboy1963 05-17-2013 06:21 PM

original poster.....
 
another option. .....put the ornamental chess piece thingy INSIDE a regulation stroke width and height character.

Mel 05-17-2013 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagarre (Post 771730)
or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external
configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago
may be operated without displaying
marks in accordance with Secs. 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if:
(1) It displays in accordance with Sec. 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches
high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of
the Roman capital letter "N" followed by:
(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; .....


Doesnt say anything about when it was designed but when it was built.

The first RV-3 and RV-4 aircraft were built over 30 years. i.e. A new RV-3 or RV-4 has "the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago".

Mel 05-17-2013 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonFromTX (Post 771746)
Me too, this is the first I have heard of this. Does this mean I can just put an X in the number without a new registration? I am liking this!

YES! The "X" doesn't show up in any paperwork. If your aircraft qualifies, you may remove the "experimental" placard and ad the "X" to the N number.

DaAV8R 05-17-2013 07:41 PM

NX
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771773)
YES! The "X" doesn't show up in any paperwork. If your aircraft qualifies, you may remove the "experimental" placard and ad the "X" to the N number.

What does it take to qualify?

Mel 05-17-2013 07:51 PM

An amateur-built aircraft with the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may utilize an "X" in the N number. i.e. NX123TX.
The "X" replaces the 2" "experimental" placard.
Reference 45.22(b).
This has been discussed at length in the other thread "N-Number Character".
These 2 threads should be combined.

Michael White 05-17-2013 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771784)
An amateur-built aircraft with the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may utilize an "X" in the N number. i.e. NX123TX.
The "X" replaces the 2" "experimental" placard.
Reference 45.22(b).
This has been discussed at length in the other thread "N-Number Character".
These 2 threads should be combined.

So Mel, does this mean I can design and build an experimental that is the spitting image of a 1954 Cessna C-170 (with an O-360 and glass panel of course) and get to use the "X" in the registration?

deek 05-17-2013 08:09 PM

Got it! I learn something every day; thanks Mel :)

Mel 05-17-2013 08:17 PM

Yep!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael White (Post 771788)
So Mel, does this mean I can design and build an experimental that is the spitting image of a 1954 Cessna C-170 (with an O-360 and glass panel of course) and get to use the "X" in the registration?

That's what the reg says!

SteinAir 05-17-2013 08:26 PM

But...Don's RV-12 LSA likely does not qualify.....

Cheers,
Stein

Mel 05-17-2013 08:31 PM

Nope!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SteinAir (Post 771799)
But...Don's RV-12 LSA likely does not qualify....
Cheers,
Stein

RV-12 is a looooong way from qualifying.

And just as an aside, Light-Sport aircraft do not qualify.
Must be Experimental Exhibition or Experimental Amateur-Built certificated under 21.191(d) or (g).

DonFromTX 05-17-2013 10:09 PM

I don't see a problem, mine is EAB, not an RV12, not ELSA, and it is a spitting image of a 1946 Ercoupe. Does the X have to be the same size as the rest of the N number? I can just re-register it and call it an "Air" coupe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel (Post 771801)
RV-12 is a looooong way from qualifying.

And just as an aside, Light-Sport aircraft do not qualify.
Must be Experimental Exhibition or Experimental Amateur-Built certificated under 21.191(d) or (g).



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 AM.