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Measuring the amperage supplied from a battery charger "may" be a bit more complex than simply using a DC amp meter as there is usually a large AC component involved in DC battery chargers. So perhaps this is a Peak current figure rather than an average current figure which the meter is measuring.
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I think the charger is operating properly. Was it at 14.7 volts?
The charging curve you show is for a completely discharged battery. Since yours is only about half discharged, the charger sensed this and started in the middle of the 8 hour cycle - at 3 amps, half of 6. Nevertheless, you might ask Odyssee why they recommend a 6 amp charger when they say a minimum of 6.4 amps is needed. |
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The OCV at the start of the charge was ~12.1 volts. Take another look at the charging curve. It is declaring the need for constant current of .4C10min which is 6.4 amps up to 4.7v. They call this the BULK CHARGE PHASE. Then the charger switches to the ABSORPTION PHASE. The charger has LED's to tell you where it is in the cycle. I was also monitoring the battery voltage with a high quality volt meter. It was definitely in the BULK CHARGE PHASE.... I still say this charger is too small for the job or not working correctly. I am almost certain this is what killed my battery since I used the charger a bunch during my panel upgrade and during testing. The manual and technical literature warns many times to never perform the BULK CHARGE PHASE at less than .4C10min or it will damage the battery. Mine died in 6 months (with 3 of those months being panel upgrades and tests) so this seems like a good indication that something is wrong with the picture. |
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I happen to have a digital O'scope I can put on the charger output to see what the true output is. It will be interesting to know for several reasons. I will post the results when I get a chance to test it. |
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I measured the output of the Ultimizer charger last night with a scope while performing some more test and it has a very stable DC output. Very little AC component and what is there is at a very high frequency. I opened the charger up and it has a switching type power supply not just a big transformer and a rectifier. |
I have an update:
I have been in contact with the folks at the Odyssey battery headquarters. They are very helpful folks. They have instructed batterymart.com to give me credit under warranty for the 6 month old battery. They tell me that the primary reason for an Odyssey battery to have the symptoms that my 6 month old and 3 year old battery had was sulfation. They also gave me a special procedure to follow to desulfate the battery if it can be saved. The prodedure is to discharge the battery at the 5hr rate maximum down to ~10v OCV. For the PC680, that is 3 amps max. And then to use the 6 amp Ultimizer to recharge the battery till it goes into trickle mode and to do this as many times as needed as long as the discharge time keeps taking longer than the last cycle. I found my oldest battery (never threw it out) with a date code of July 09. It was replaced back in the fall of last year due to the same symptoms. I wanted to see if the special procedure could bring this thing back to life. So far I have completed 3 cycles on the battery. The first lasted about 5 minutes, the second almost 2 hours, and the third was well over 4 hours and tonight I plan to try another one. The bottom line is that this procedure seems to be working to revive this battery. The only thing the support from Odyssey cannot explain is why these batteries are getting sulfated so quickly or at all in this application and with the continuous use of the Ultimizer charger. I am a bunch more educated about these batteries now and I think the new one is going to last a long time even if I have to perform regular desulfating procedures on it. I still do not plan to keep it on the Ultimizer continuously. |
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A load of 36 watts should do just fine----------although as the voltage drops the amperage will go up slightly. I suspect probably a 12v light bulb rated at 30--35 W should do the job. |
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Out of the aircraft, I have an old car headlamp that I use for that purpose. Works great. |
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Do the owners of the thousands of motorcycles and watercraft that use this battery obsess over this stuff? ;) |
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Your absolutely correct... This procedure is for an Odyssey battery that is already failed (with this failure mode) not for one that is working good. I plan to follow your's and other advice in this thread for the new one (fly it and not use the charger full time) and see how it goes. Hopefully the new one never needs this procedure. There is one caveat to my particular situation and that is that I spend more than the average amount of time on the ground without the engine running with the panel fired up. It is the nature of being a techno geek. I will have to use the charger often in order to replenish what I drain out during ground ops of the panel. |
One more data point. I decided to replace my heavy Concord 25 battery with the PC-680, I kept it plugged into a battery Tender when on the ground, after 9 months it was done, I replaced it with a new PC-680 and never plugged it on to a charger, after 9 months it was done, I though I?ll try it one more time, I bought a new PC-680 and a new Odyssey 6A charger and kept it plugged into the Odyssey charger, after about 11 months it was starting to seem weak, after reading this thread I ran it down with the landing lights to 10 volts and recharged, I did this twice and it cranks like new again. I bet I have two good PC-680s sitting on the bench that just need rejuvenating.
The landing lights get a little on the warm side running them on the ground, Is it ok to fly with the alternator shut off? Fly to lunch and return with the alternator shut off to run the battery down once in a while? What do you guys think of that idea? |
Russ,
Looks like you and I have had similar results. I was also able to revive the first battery that I replaced back in the fall of last year. It had been sitting on a bench since then. I ran it down per the directions given to me from Odyssey and charged it up about 10 times with the 6 amp Ultimizer and it seems good enough to be used again. Should make a good lawnmower battery or one to plug into the airplane for ground ops. Not sure I would trust it for use on the airplane since I have a new one now. Each time I would run it down and recharge, it would take longer and longer to complete the cycle. PS...the Odyssey has a 2 year non-prorated warranty! |
Brian,
What voltage do you have your aircraft regulator set to? When I spoke with the Odyssy tech rep, he told me that a charge rate of 14.6 volts was ideal. This unfortunately, is a lot higher than the preset voltage regulators on the plane power and various other alternators with a built in regulator. My normal alt output "running" voltage is around 14.5 volts, and thus far have not had any issues with my 680 or 925. |
14.3-14.4 volts per the VP-X Pro.
It is a PP alternator. |
I too have the PP alt. using the Vertical Power system. I used a #20 gauge wire to from the VPX to the field to cause a voltage drop which increases the output voltage of the alt. That way I maintain at least a 14.5 volt output. The higher voltage will not bother any of the avionics.
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Looking around the net on car racing/motorcycle/other aircraft forums it seems most problems with these batteries have been occuring in the last two years. Cars, motorcycles and airplanes have not changed. If the battery business is like most now, profits are more important than quality. |
It is an epidemic...
What a timely series of posts. This AM my PC680 refused to start my IO-390. I?d get about two blades then the solenoid would start its death rattle. The battery was purchased in March of this year. It was on the recommended Odyssey Ultimizer charger all last night. We put a multi-meter on the battery then engaged the starter. Although it showed a full charge it dropped to 7.1 volts. Took the battery AutoZone and asked them to check it out. They said the battery was perfect. Well perfect it ain?t. I, like some others in this post had an old PC680 and it spun my engine like a new battery.
Called Battery Mart in Winchester, VA and they told me ?well these batteries are for ATV?s and the like not aircraft.? I explained that a battery does not possess sentience in that it is not aware of its surroundings. It just needs to be treated with electrical respect. One thing I?ve learned from this is to buy your battery locally to avoid the UPS/FEDEX shuffle. As an aside they did give me an RMA but said the shipping is on me. |
If they give you any trouble call Odyssey direct. They were very responsive. They even have a Facebook page and they monitor it.
They had absolutely no issues with the battery being used on an experimental aircraft. They were aware that Van's actually designed it into some of the models. It is marketed as a Motorsports battery. My airplane has a motor and it is a sport plane so that makes it OK to me! By the way, you might want to try the rejuvenation procedure before sending it in. Most likely this will fix it! |
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Most externally regulated alternators have a 'sense' input which does control voltage output. |
Maybe it was my fault...
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He has sold "thousands of Odyssey batts" and thinks they are nearly perfect. He performs a load test on them before shipping and has never seen a bad one. He asked me about the connections saying that the ring terminal to batt terminal is critical as I told him that I may have had the charger ring terminals positioned between the #2 wire ring terminal and the batt. That, he replied, is not good. He also added that stainless machine screws/bolts screwed into the tapped receptacle are lousy conductors. Don |
Oversized lightening holes in battery jacket
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The Vans RV firewall forward kit comes with a battery holder that is actually just a stock Odyssey PC680 metal jacket. The distributor says that metal jacket is an integral and necessary component of the battery for high heat environments but that RV builders are often modifying them by cutting out most of the front wall. I thought his comments were interesting and that I would pass them on. I have never seen this discussed on VansAirforce before. Is it possible in this particular instance that too much metal has been removed from the PC680 jacket in an attempt to "lighten" it. Just a possibility and certainly food for thought for other builders keen on taking out the last gram of weight from their aircraft. |
Walt,
I have to disagree with you. The field of any alternator is what is used to regulate the output. The field line on the PP alternator is used for two things, one is to energize the field and the second is to sense the "output" voltage. If the voltage drop across the field wire running from the power source to the alternator is such that at the alternator end of the wire, it is less than the actual bus voltage, then the internal regulator will continue to increase the field current until the output of the alternator drives the voltage at the field terminal to whatever the regulator has been programmed. In the case of the PP alternator, it is 14.2 volts. So until 14.2 volts appears on the field terminal, the internal alternator regulator will continue to drive the field until the voltage is 14.2v. With an externally regulated alternator, the sense line is different than the field line in that the sense line is connected to the bus and the field current is varied through the regulator. This is not to say that you can't trick an externally regulated alternator that does not have an adjustable output, to output a higher voltage by simply dropping the voltage to the sense line. |
Foir Apache56: See this thread.
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=90977 Starting issues caused by faulty starter solenoid. |
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I have seen no evidence of this with my batteries. I have seen some posted here that have swelled up but most of those have been abused in some manner. Mine look and slide in and out of the case just as if they were new. |
PC680 CCA????
RE: My earlier post.
I "read the battery fine print" today and was surprised to see that my Battery Mart March 2013 PC680 had a CCA OF 170 and if I recall a PHCA of 580 while my old PC680 had a label showing 220 CCA and PHCA of 680. Somewhere I recall reading that we need (for our 4 cyl engines) a CCA of at least 220. I am guessing that this may be part of my problem. I charged the "new" battery last night, cleaned the terminals and it performed as it should. But now I'm gun shy with the 170 vice 220 CCA issue. Don |
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"Why were the CCA, PHCA, MCA, HCA etc. ratings changed to much lower values on the PC680? The production of the product hasn?t changed in many years except to make design improvements but the original published specs were based on calculations derived from other TPPL technology products and once the testing was done it was determined that the published stats would be minimum required ratings for each rating and not the average. Kathy Mitchell ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative" Bottom line is that it is the same battery it always was, they just reduced its rating after they actually tested it. The prior rating was an estimate. |
Bottom line is that it is the same battery it always was, they just reduced its rating after they actually tested it. The prior rating was an estimate.[/quote]
Thanks Brian. |
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Do you recall why he said this is a bad idea? It would seem that Odyssey makes these quick connectors to be used in just that manner. I will admit I have never read through the Odyssey battery literature to see what they say regarding this issue and there is no doubt Bill Bainbridge is much more knowledgeable than I. |
Good connections...
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Thanks for bringing this up and I stand corrected. I contacted PP and they confirmed they did indeed tap off the field terminal for the internal regulator sense functlion. However the problem I see with regulating the alternator by increasing the resistance of the field wire (same as installing a resistor in the field supply) is that as the voltage drops on the bus and the field draws more current there will be an additional voltage drop at the field, so the alterator will overcompensate. So the higher the field current the higher the bus voltage will be. At least thats my theory, I would be very interested to know how it actually works though in the real world. |
It died on the 4th
I installed a new Concorde battery and flew with a good volt meter, I'm only charging at 13.90 volts. could this be cutting the battery life short? I am/was using the Odyssey charger between flights.
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Russ,
The normal charging voltage for a lead acid battery is 13.8 -14.2 volts. This is where most regulators are set. If it is not a sealed battery and you charge it with too high of a voltage, you will overheat it during the charge cycle and boil the water out which will require you to frequently check the level of the battery. I don't believe that charging it with the 13.9 volts you are seeing, will damage or shorten the life of your battery. What I question is the need to continually trickle charge your battery. Rarely do I see aircraft trickle charged during inactivity. The only instance you may need to do this is if the aircraft is rarely flown. I would contact Concorde and see what they recommend for both the charging voltage and the maintenance voltage. |
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If you have an emergency bus with a diode in the circuit, voltage will vary depending on where you take the reading. The diode will absorb about 0.5v and make your system appear to be undercharging if you read voltage downstream from the diode. But you need ~14.5v going to the battery. |
What Sam said. Odyssey recommends charging there batteries at at least 14.5V.
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So I just put this battery in http://www.concordebattery.com/flyer.php?id=36 what?s the recommended charging voltage for it? I believe I can adjust my B&C regulator, I?ll be calling Bill (B&C) Monday. |
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