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-   -   Camguard powerpoint (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=92696)

erich weaver 11-02-2012 10:51 AM

Camguard powerpoint
 
Happened to come across this on the web this morning. Some good photos and tips with along with a heavy dose of Camguard marketing, but I do use the product.
http://paft-nj.org/POWERPOINTS/PDF_F...UBRICATION.pdf

regards

erich

C-FAH Q 11-02-2012 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erich weaver (Post 713125)
Happened to come across this on the web this morning. Some good photos and tips with along with a heavy dose of Camguard marketing, but I do use the product.
http://paft-nj.org/POWERPOINTS/PDF_F...UBRICATION.pdf

regards

erich


Interesting, I had just placed an order with Spruce for some, then seen your post. Snake oil ? Good practice ? Time will tell, but preventing corrosion has to be a good thing.

SmilingJack 11-02-2012 11:13 AM

I think we can all agree that "Vlad" doesn't need camguard :D

It seems camguard is for those who don't fly 500+ hours a year!!!

Although, maybe he needs one of those donut type seat cushions ;)

Thanks for the post though, I was thinking about camguard too.

Ron Lee 11-02-2012 06:12 PM

I also use an engine dryer system.

N427EF 11-02-2012 07:11 PM

Half the problem
 
Ron,
A dryer cures only half the problem,
the other half is acid.
1 Gallon of water produced in the combustion cycle of burning 1 Gallon of gas???
Someone please explain that to me.

N427EF 11-04-2012 09:23 AM

Camguard Snakeoil?
 
Isn't anybody bothered by this statement?

Page 10 on the powerpoint presentation mentioned above.

1 Gallon water produced by 1 Gallon of fuel burned ???


I am just asking for clarification.

Mike S 11-04-2012 09:38 AM

Ernst, I have heard that before, but the thing that is not usually made clear is that it is water vapor, not liquid water. And, is it refering to a gallon of vapor, or how much vapor would be generated if a gallon of water totally evaporated.

Still, I do not know if the statement is correct or not.

Burining a hydro carbon adds oxygen and other gasses, and produces various mixtures of stuff, HoH being one of them.

We need a good chemist to jump in on this one;)

Erik.37m 11-04-2012 09:51 AM

I posted this yesterday by chance. Lycoming mentions lead is one of the main ingredients to corrosion.
Erik


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rdBJ...feature=relmfu

erich weaver 11-04-2012 09:51 AM

Combustion of gasoline produces water vapor that can mix with your oil and make your engine susceptible to rust. Whether 1 gal of fuel equates to 1 gal of water produced really doesn't matter much, but I have no reason to doubt that. Don't see how it equates to a snake oil claim regardless.

Erich

rocketbob 11-04-2012 10:09 AM

Camguard works by enhancing the film qualities of the oil which prevents components of blowby from causing varnish and rust. The gentleman who formulated Camguard originally used the same formulation for Exxon Elite since he formulated that oil as well. So basically it is an supplemental version of Exxon Elite.

Russ McCutcheon 11-04-2012 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 713556)
Camguard works by enhancing the film qualities of the oil which prevents components of blowby from causing varnish and rust. The gentleman who formulated Camguard originally used the same formulation for Exxon Elite since he formulated that oil as well. So basically it is an supplemental version of Exxon Elite.

I'm using Exxon Elite there for I am using Camguard already,,, good to know.

Ted Johns 11-04-2012 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike S (Post 713544)
Ernst, I have heard that before, but the thing that is not usually made clear is that it is water vapor, not liquid water. And, is it refering to a gallon of vapor, or how much vapor would be generated if a gallon of water totally evaporated.

Still, I do not know if the statement is correct or not.


What part of: 2C8H18 + 25O2 --> 16CO2 + 18H2O don't you understand? :D

Yes, the main byproduct of gasoline combustion is carbon dioxide and water. And yes, the water is in vapor (i.e. gaseous) form, considering the significant heat of combustion of gasoline.

I could show the work need to convert the above idealized balanced equation into gram molecular weight equivalents, but it's easily googled, and I think you get the idea. :)

SHIPCHIEF 11-04-2012 08:07 PM

The water vapor produced by combustion is mostly expelled out the exhaust at a very non-condensible 1200+ degree F.
Some small amount of water vapor, combined with other exhaust products seep past the rings and exhaust valve guides, where they come in contact with the inside of the engine, and the oil.
If the oil is a nice 185 F or higher, most of these gasses should pass right out the crankcase vent as a vapor.
You get worrysome corrosion when the remaining vapor (ladened with lead salts and acids) has a chance to condense in the engine and remain there for some time. Presumably, your engine is still fairly hot when you shut it down, so most of the last bit of water vapor could still be expelled by it's vapor pressure.
The additives in your oil neutralize these acids, if you have been changing that oil when you are supposed to. I suppose you could dip a PH test strip in your oil to make sure it hasn't gone acidic.
Given enough time, good oil fails in tight places like bearing journals, also the steel cylinder and iron cam near the crankcase vent, where moist air can enter when the atmospheric pressure fluctuates.
Bummer. Why don't you save yourself some money and go fly? :rolleyes: Follow the engine manufacturer's reccomendation and fly long enough to dry out the inside of your engine.
I like the idea of Camguard or other additives when they could reasonably benefit.
The presentation had good pictures, thanks for posting it.

RV10inOz 11-04-2012 08:23 PM

Forgetting the combustion process for a minute, if you did some rough numbers on 1 gallon of fuel at peak or LOP rates, thats 2.68kg of fuel and 40kg of air.

Air is roughly 1.25kg/m3 and a m3 holds about 6-10 grams of water per cubic metre.

That means on average something like 330ml of water injested from the air for every gallon of fuel burned. Or 1 gallon of water for 11-12 gallons of fuel.

Unless I got my units of measure wrong :eek:

N427EF 11-04-2012 09:01 PM

RV10inOz,
Now that sounds more like it, 330mml per 1 Gallon,
or somewhat more than a 1/4 pint per gallon of fuel burned.

According to their sales literature:
Making people believe that you pump a gallon of water through your combustion chamber for every gallon of fuel burned is what ruins their credibility and is the reason I call it Snakeoil.


Mike S 11-04-2012 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Johns (Post 713696)
What part of: 2C8H18 + 25O2 --> 16CO2 + 18H2O don't you understand? :D

Any..........:rolleyes:

erich weaver 11-04-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N427EF (Post 713730)
RV10inOz,
Now that sounds more like it, 330mml per 1 Gallon,
or somewhat more than a 1/4 pint per gallon of fuel burned.

According to their sales literature:
Making people believe that you pump a gallon of water through your combustion chamber for every gallon of fuel burned is what ruins their credibility and is the reason I call it Snakeoil.


No, I believe you are missing the point. RV10inOZ said "forgetting the combustion process for a minute..." and was just talking about the ADDITIONAL water brought into the cylinders from the intake air. He was not discounting the original premise of the combustion process generating water vapor that was also layed out in the chemical equation earlier. Embrace the snake oil!:)

N427EF 11-05-2012 07:04 AM

Stay with me
 
Stay with me for one more round please.
After I put my ignorance on display I am still confused as to what exactly we are talking about.
When someone says generating 1Gallon of water I assume that to be liquid.
(sales literature)
Is someone talking about water vapor, in gallons? Could someone just exactly tell me how much liquid water is generated by burning 1 gallon of gas.
No formulas please, gallons or liter.
And BTW I am a sucker for snakeoil, I use Lenkite (avblend) and MMO.
thanks.

zav6a 11-05-2012 08:24 AM

Liquid water
 
Exactly 0 gallons liquid water generated by the combustion process. Too hot in the combustion chamber.

In the crankcase though, it is another story. What ever blows by the rings has the potential of condensing to the liquid form there. Especially when you first start the engine and all of the internal surfaces are relatively cold.

Water is also slightly soluable in oil, so it is not so simple as simply keeping the crankcase temp above the dewpoint and venting it overboard. Some of the water vapor will be dissolved in the oil, even at 180F.

erich weaver 11-05-2012 08:26 AM

Ernst, There is no single quantitative answer to your question. All the water produced by combustion will be in the vapor phase initially due to the high temperatures. A small portion of that vapor will mix with your oil, and if your oil is below the boiling temp of water, it can condense and exist as liquid water.

I think we may be getting hung up on the volume issue here when the point is that there is a pathway for water to enter your oil and that can lead to rust. There are ways to minimize it, but it's likely always there in small amounts. Also, keep in mind the power point presentation is likely a set of notes for a talking presentation, so we are not viewing the full presentation. I doubt the presenter ever intended to suggest that there is a gallon or more of liquid water in your oil sump at any time.

Regards
Erich

n761tj 11-17-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erich weaver (Post 713827)
Ernst, There is no single quantitative answer to your question. All the water produced by combustion will be in the vapor phase initially due to the high temperatures. A small portion of that vapor will mix with your oil, and if your oil is below the boiling temp of water, it can condense and exist as liquid water.

I think we may be getting hung up on the volume issue here when the point is that there is a pathway for water to enter your oil and that can lead to rust. There are ways to minimize it, but it's likely always there in small amounts. Also, keep in mind the power point presentation is likely a set of notes for a talking presentation, so we are not viewing the full presentation. I doubt the presenter ever intended to suggest that there is a gallon or more of liquid water in your oil sump at any time.

Regards
Erich

DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed

erich weaver 11-17-2012 10:53 PM

Thanks for weighing in on this Ed. Always nice to get the info straight from the original source.
Erich

DanH 11-18-2012 07:20 AM

Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?

David-aviator 11-18-2012 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717230)
DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed

Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised. :)

n761tj 11-18-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 717268)
Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?

I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

I do not believe in shock cooling. There is a case to be made for shock heating when applying full power to cold cylinders. I don't believe raising the EGT from 1350 to 1500 degrees (CHT's change little) when doing the "Big Pull" does anything at all.

Ed

rocketbob 11-18-2012 08:26 PM

Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?

n761tj 11-18-2012 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David-aviator (Post 717458)
Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised. :)

Avblend is a single component, thin mineral oil. It was created in the 1950's.

Some people swear it helps with valve sticking. If it works for you great!

I have tested it thoroughly for wear and corrosion protection and it only hurts performance because it thins the oil reducing the oil film thickness. The thinner oil is what gives them the claim of better fuel economy. It evaporates in about 5 hours in most aircraft.

Camguard is comprised of 11 high performance additives and is 100% active with no diluents. We offer demonstrable proof of performance in rust and corrosion protection, deposit control (the only product to do so), wear reduction and seal conditioning/protection.

Avblend sponsors Sean Tucker, which is fine.

It took Mike Busch 2 years to test Camguard for himself. He is not on our payroll.

You should look at both companies data and judge for yourself.

Ed

n761tj 11-18-2012 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 717472)
Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?

Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed

rocketbob 11-18-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717479)
Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed

Yep. I have a friend that mixes Phillips Tropartic with X/C and is working with an engineer from Phillips who regularly samples his oil. Troparctic is high in ZDDP, is that what you are concerned with? As I understand it the newer diesel oils are made to work with particulate filters and have to be low in ZDDP to avoid getting ash deposits in them.

6 Gun 11-19-2012 06:31 AM

Avblend
 
Bought a 182 from up north that used Exxon 15-50 and two cans of avblend every 25hrs oil change had cyl in 400hrs so I started to wonder what went wrong in my thinking heres what happened . Cold engine 15w oil when cold add two cans of avblend maybe 5w maybe 10w on take offf when you need the best protection dont get it till engine gets hot.looked at msds sheet and seen that avblend was 99% mineral spirits and hydrofluoric acid .You might want to see whats in Cam guard before you run it. they have some nice T shirts though.
Bob

David-aviator 11-19-2012 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717477)
Avblend is a single component, thin mineral oil. It was created in the 1950's.

Some people swear it helps with valve sticking. If it works for you great!

I have tested it thoroughly for wear and corrosion protection and it only hurts performance because it thins the oil reducing the oil film thickness. The thinner oil is what gives them the claim of better fuel economy. It evaporates in about 5 hours in most aircraft.

Camguard is comprised of 11 high performance additives and is 100% active with no diluents. We offer demonstrable proof of performance in rust and corrosion protection, deposit control (the only product to do so), wear reduction and seal conditioning/protection.

Avblend sponsors Sean Tucker, which is fine.

It took Mike Busch 2 years to test Camguard for himself. He is not on our payroll.

You should look at both companies data and judge for yourself.

Ed

Thank you, I will. :)

n761tj 11-19-2012 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 717486)
Yep. I have a friend that mixes Phillips Tropartic with X/C and is working with an engineer from Phillips who regularly samples his oil. Troparctic is high in ZDDP, is that what you are concerned with? As I understand it the newer diesel oils are made to work with particulate filters and have to be low in ZDDP to avoid getting ash deposits in them.

The Tropartic has slightly reduced ZDDP but the highest metallic content is from the overbased detergents and is thus the biggest problem. It is interesting that a Phillips engineer would would gamble with his friends life by promoting the use of an ash containing oil in an air-cooled aircraft engine. The oil may test just fine even after the engine fails due to catastrophic preignition caused by metallic ash deposits in the combustion chamber.

Ed

n761tj 11-19-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6 Gun (Post 717527)
Bought a 182 from up north that used Exxon 15-50 and two cans of avblend every 25hrs oil change had cyl in 400hrs so I started to wonder what went wrong in my thinking heres what happened . Cold engine 15w oil when cold add two cans of avblend maybe 5w maybe 10w on take offf when you need the best protection dont get it till engine gets hot.looked at msds sheet and seen that avblend was 99% mineral spirits and hydrofluoric acid .You might want to see whats in Cam guard before you run it. they have some nice T shirts though.
Bob

Avblend is 99% thin mineral oil (0W) not mineral spirits a solvent (charcoal lighter fluid) and 1% ether (starting fluid). Where did you get the hydrofluoric acid, one of the most dangerous compounds around?

Ed

N427EF 11-19-2012 10:07 AM

Thanks Ed
 
Ed, thank you for posting here and sharing your expertise.

Quote:

I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.
I was just considering an air/oil separator installation, maybe not such a good idea. I have heard the same story before but coming from you, it carries more weight.
I may be dropping Avblend in favor of Camguard now.

David-aviator 11-19-2012 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N427EF (Post 717584)
Ed, thank you for posting here and sharing your expertise.



I was just considering an air/oil separator installation, maybe not such a good idea. I have heard the same story before but coming from you, it carries more weight.
I may be dropping Avblend in favor of Camguard now.

Ernst,

I suspect your concern is a dirty bottom skin from the breather. I went the separator route with a previous airplane and it never worked well, seemed like the blow by took a lot of stuff with it not withstanding the separator feature. Also, the separator can needs regular service as it does capture water and other junk coming out to the engine. I can not imagine plumbing it back into the crank case.

What seems to work reasonably well with regard to keeping the bottom skin kind of clean is routing the breather exit just above one of the exhaust stacks. The hot pipe probably super vaporizes the breather stuff and there is less mess on the bottom skin.

DanH 11-19-2012 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717471)
I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

Thank you Ed. Serious question; would you judge CamGuard to be an adequate prophylactic against that chemical activity?

rocketbob 11-19-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717555)
The Tropartic has slightly reduced ZDDP but the highest metallic content is from the overbased detergents and is thus the biggest problem. It is interesting that a Phillips engineer would would gamble with his friends life by promoting the use of an ash containing oil in an air-cooled aircraft engine. The oil may test just fine even after the engine fails due to catastrophic preignition caused by metallic ash deposits in the combustion chamber.

Ed

He's been flying his rocket for a number of years with a 50/50 mix of Troparctic and X/C, and probably averages 120 hours/year. When the formulation changed for Troparctic they (Phillips) had him dial the ratio back a bit. I will ask him tonight but he has had absolutely no problems with the oil mix itself. I've seen the inside of his 540 and its clean as a whistle, but he has had a few cases of sticking valves. I know several other people that have run full synthetics with few problems.

Mike S 11-19-2012 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n761tj (Post 717471)
I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

Ed

And if the captured fluid is not returned to the crankcase????

n761tj 11-19-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 717595)
Thank you Ed. Serious question; would you judge CamGuard to be an adequate prophylactic against that chemical activity?

This is ong thing that Camguard does very well. It quashes the chemical activity of the reactive species found in the blow-by.

Ed

n761tj 11-19-2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 717605)
He's been flying his rocket for a number of years with a 50/50 mix of Troparctic and X/C, and probably averages 120 hours/year. When the formulation changed for Troparctic they (Phillips) had him dial the ratio back a bit. I will ask him tonight but he has had absolutely no problems with the oil mix itself. I've seen the inside of his 540 and its clean as a whistle, but he has had a few cases of sticking valves. I know several other people that have run full synthetics with few problems.

Why have you seen the insides of his engine?

If the engine was so clean why did he have valve sticking? Ash deposits in the guides?

Did it look as clean as our certification engine? Note valve guide
http://aslcamguard.com/wp/wp-content...ion-Engine.pdf

Have you looked for combustion chamber deposits? The main issue.

I find it improbable that this was a Phillips (company) sanctioned endeavor.

Ed


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