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PerfTech 02-13-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv8guy (Post 628933)
The constant is the 3 inch extension. The torque is applied to it, not the nut.

Stimulating discussion

Very well said! Why couldn't I say that? Thank You, Allan:rolleyes:

Walt 02-13-2012 08:40 PM

AC 43.13 is the bible, until someone can show me the math to prove it is incorrect (which I seriously doubt will happen), I will continue to go with the formula 43.13 shows with the exact length of my wrenches.

PS: I also ordered one of the wrenches, you can never have enough tools!

nauga 02-13-2012 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt (Post 628949)
AC 43.13 is the bible, until someone can show me the math to prove it is incorrect....

I can't do that, would you settle for the math to show you it's correct? ;)

A torque is a force x an arm. If I apply a force F on a wrench L feet from a nut I will get a torque of T1:

F*L=T1

If I add an extension x feet long to the wrench and apply the same force F to the wrench handle I will get a different torque T2:

F*(L+x) = T2

Presumably T2 is the torque I really want. I would still measure a torque of T1 at distance L, the 'head' of the torque wrench. Think of this as the wrench setting, the wrench will 'click' (or indicate) when the torque at the head = T1 if the wrench is set to T1, but the torque at the extension will be T2. So...divide the first equation by the second:

F*L/[F*(L+x)] = T1/T2

The force cancels, move the bolt torque to the other side and get:

T1 = T2*L/(L+x)

Or as Walt put it:

Wrench setting = desired torque x wrench length / (wrench length + extension length)

I have two torque wrenches, one is ~10" to grip center, the other 14". If I use a 0.8 correction for a 3" extension on both I *will* get different torques at the fastener for the same torque setting.

CMW 02-13-2012 09:55 PM

Walt is correct, .8 is not a constant
 
Here's a simple diagram that shows the math. If the torque wrench is one foot long and the extension is 3in and installed in line with the handle then the .8 multiplier is correct if the wrench is two feet the multiplier would be .88 and if the wrench was three feet the multiplier is .92....if the extension is at an angle to the handle then the actual length E must be measured and used in the equation.



Here's a good calculator:

http://www.norbar.com/calculators/to...alculator.aspx

P.S. the wrench is awesome and I will definitely add one tot the tool box.

erich weaver 02-13-2012 11:07 PM

I'm just glad I already got my order in. Pretty sure Allan will be doubling the price tomorrow after all these posts :) These VAF guys are a bunch of tough customers huh? Just having a good product isn't enough any more.

Erich

Garage Guy 02-14-2012 03:28 AM

Length does matter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by L.Adamson (Post 628816)
I agree with Allan. If a cheater bar is used to extend the length of any length torque wrench...........at the handle end, then the torque value remains the same.

But with an extension between the torque wrench and the bolt, there are two places where you need to know the torque: the head of the torque wrench, and the bolt. You care about the first one because that is what the torque wrench is reading, and you care about the second one because that's the torque you are applying to the bolt. Adding a cheater bar changes the torque at the two places differently, because the lever arm ratios are different, which is why you have to pay attention to "wrench length" when using an extension, even if you don't have to when you aren't using an extension.

Suppose I have a 12" torque wrench, with Allan's 3" extension on a bolt, and I apply 100 lbs at the tail end of the torque wrench. The torque wrench reads 1 ft * 100 lbs = 100 ft lbs, and the bolt gets 1.25 ft * 100 lbs = 125 ft lbs. So the wrench is reading 0.8 of the bolt torque.

Now suppose I add a 15" cheater bar, and apply 50 lbs to the end of it. At the bolt, I've doubled the arm and halved the force, so it is seeing 2.50 ft * 50 lbs = 125 ft lbs., same as before. But the torque wrench head is now seeing, and reading, 2.25 ft * 50 lbs = 112.5 ft lbs. The wrench is reading 112.5/125 = 0.9 of the bolt torque.

Which is what you get from the formula (wrench length)/(wrench length + extension), where wrench length now is 12" + 15" = 2.25ft. Length does matter.

--Paul

PCHunt 02-14-2012 03:50 AM

Length does NOT matter
 
The reason length doesn't matter is that the torque wrench is indicating the torque on the nut, and not the force on the end of the wrench.

A wrench handle can be any length, and if the torque reading is calibrated at the nut end of the wrench, it will tell you the torque on the nut, which is what you want.

So, wrench #1 is 10 feet long, with a dial that indicates ft-lbs (or more correctly lb-ft) at the NUT. if you want 100 pounds of torque, you would apply a force of 10 lbs at the handle, and the dial would read 100. (10 feet X 10 lbs = 100 ft-lbs)

Wrench #2 is 1 foot long, with a dial that reads torque at the NUT. If you want 100 lbs of torque, you would apply a force of 100 lbs at the HANDLE, and the dial would read 100. (1 foot X 100 lbs = 100 ft-lbs)

You guys are confusing the nut torque with the force needed at the handle.

All torque wrenches read TORQUE AT THE NUT, not force on the end of the handle.

That's why the length of the handle doesn't matter for torque wrenches.

Taking all bets! :)

Garage Guy 02-14-2012 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCHunt (Post 628995)
the torque wrench is indicating the torque on the nut

Not with Allan's extension, it isn't. It is indicating the torque at the torque wrench head, but the nut is 3" away from that.

--Paul

The Paintman 02-14-2012 06:05 AM

What a "torqueing" point
 
And here we are back at what Allan said right at the beginning. He has done the math for us and in order to achieve the desired torque on the nut one would have to set the wrench at .8 of whatever ft-lbs you require. The reason is that the point of torque on the nut has been moved by 3'' which will always remain the same as long as you are using Allan's prop wrench. In other words the torque wrench will "click" at the correct torque setting regardless of the length of the handle. If however, you were using an ordinary flat or ring spanner and extended the handle it would be a very different story!!:eek:

nauga 02-14-2012 07:58 AM

*sigh*

If I have a 12" torque wrench and I apply a 80 lb force at the grip there will be a 80 ft-lb torque at the head. If I add a 3" extension (0.25 ft) straight out from the head that 80 lb will still produce 80 ft-lb at the head but it will produce 100 ft-lb at the end of the extension. That's what everyone wants. Problem is, if I use an 18" wrench, I will apply a 53.3 lb force at the handle to get 80 ft-lb at the wrench head. The torque at the bolt will be 53.3lb*(1.5+0.25 ft), or 93.3 ft-lb.

Might be within tolerances, might not. It's better to know than to guess.

L.Adamson 02-14-2012 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nauga (Post 629030)
*sigh*

If I have a 12" torque wrench and I apply a 80 lb force at the grip there will be a 80 ft-lb torque at the head. If I add a 3" extension (0.25 ft) straight out from the head that 80 lb will still produce 80 ft-lb at the head but it will produce 100 ft-lb at the end of the extension. That's what everyone wants. Problem is, if I use an 18" wrench, I will apply a 53.3 lb force at the handle to get 80 ft-lb at the wrench head. The torque at the bolt will be 53.3lb*(1.5+0.25 ft), or 93.3 ft-lb.

Might be within tolerances, might not. It's better to know than to guess.

You're still incorrect. The difference is where the 3" extention is applied. If it's between the nut & wrench head, then the .80 applies. It doesn't matter how long the handle of the wrench is, even with cheater bars, if the 3" between the nut and wrench head stays at 3".

As I previously said, that nut is still going to turn the same distance
to satisfy it's torque setting, wheather you apply 80 lbs or 53.3 pounds at the end of the handle, depending on length. Additional length of handle, only changes the required amount of force, that you apply to turn that nut the same amount of degrees.............as long as the original 3" remains the same.

erich weaver 02-14-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCHunt (Post 628995)
The reason length doesn't matter is that the torque wrench is indicating the torque on the nut, and not the force on the end of the wrench.

A wrench handle can be any length, and if the torque reading is calibrated at the nut end of the wrench, it will tell you the torque on the nut, which is what you want.

So, wrench #1 is 10 feet long, with a dial that indicates ft-lbs (or more correctly lb-ft) at the NUT. if you want 100 pounds of torque, you would apply a force of 10 lbs at the handle, and the dial would read 100. (10 feet X 10 lbs = 100 ft-lbs)

Wrench #2 is 1 foot long, with a dial that reads torque at the NUT. If you want 100 lbs of torque, you would apply a force of 100 lbs at the HANDLE, and the dial would read 100. (1 foot X 100 lbs = 100 ft-lbs)

You guys are confusing the nut torque with the force needed at the handle.

All torque wrenches read TORQUE AT THE NUT, not force on the end of the handle.

That's why the length of the handle doesn't matter for torque wrenches.

Taking all bets! :)


HEY! I get it now, thanks to a few of the posts above. When you set the torque wrench for 100 ft lbs, by definition, you are going to have a force of 100 lbs applied 1 foot from the end of the wrench regardless of how long your wrench is, so that's where the 12 inches comes from. When you add the 3 inch extension, you are applying that 100 lbs to the close end of the extension, but more than 100 lbs to the nut at the far end of the extension. Hence the multiplier of 12/(12 + 3) = 0.8

WOO HOO! Now I can sleep.

Erich

DarylT 02-14-2012 08:44 AM

I got an idea
 
Everyone agrees its a great tool. Lets go build some RV's!!!! Then we can use the tool.

PerfTech 02-14-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarylT (Post 629039)
Everyone agrees its a great tool. Lets go build some RV's!!!! Then we can use the tool.

Now this guy has the right idea, so
BUY!:D BUY!:D BUY!:D BUY!:D
Our operators are standing buy. Thanks, Allan

Lux Wrangler 02-14-2012 08:59 AM

physics 101, or mechanics
 
Let's assume I own a torque wrench which is two feet long. If I wanted to torque a fastener to 100 Ft-lbs. I would apply 50 lbs.

50lbs. * 2 ft. = 100 ft-lbs.

I buy the tool and follow the directions. I want 100 ft-lbs. of torque at the fastener, so I would set the wrench to 80 ft-lbs. (.8 * 100 = 80). That means I would apply 40 pounds of force to my end of the torque wrench, or 80 ft-lbs. to the drive end of the torque wrench.

40 lbs. * 2 ft. = 80 ft-lbs. which is the recommended torque wrench setting.

Now I am ready to proceed. I attach the tool which adds 3 inches, or 1/4 foot to the system. Now my system is 2.25 feet long. (2 for the wrench + .25 for the tool) I apply the 40 pounds force to the end of the tool and the wrench clicks. I now have applied 40 lbs. * 2.25 ft. = 90 ft-lbs.

LifeofReiley 02-14-2012 09:11 AM

And all this time I thought this was the Classified Section... :eek:

gstone 02-14-2012 09:14 AM

I believe!
 
Now I am ready to proceed. I attach the tool which adds 3 inches, or 1/4 foot to the system. Now my system is 2.25 feet long. (2 for the wrench + .25 for the tool) I apply the 40 pounds force to the end of the tool and the wrench clicks. I now have applied 40 lbs. * 2.25 ft. = 90 ft-lbs.

No, because your wrench doubles your efforts first at the attach end of your torque wrench making it apply 80 lb feet there and the 3 inch extension adds 25 percent to that making 100 lbs.

It really works the way Allan says!!!

tomwebster 02-14-2012 09:22 AM

My head hurts!
Tom

schristo@mac.com 02-14-2012 09:24 AM

Red wrench, blue wrench...
 


Apparently Allan is a marketing genius...

Lux Wrangler 02-14-2012 09:45 AM

Science vs. Religion?
 
Quote:

I believe!
-Religion? ;)

Quote:

Now I am ready to proceed. I attach the tool which adds 3 inches, or 1/4 foot to the system. Now my system is 2.25 feet long. (2 for the wrench + .25 for the tool) I apply the 40 pounds force to the end of the tool and the wrench clicks. I now have applied 40 lbs. * 2.25 ft. = 90 ft-lbs.
-Science ;)

Quote:

No, because your wrench doubles your efforts first at the attach end of your torque wrench making it apply 80 lb feet there and the 3 inch extension adds 25 percent to that making 100 lbs....It really works the way Allan says!!!
-Religion? ;)

.25 is not 25 percent of 2 feet, but 25 percent of 1 foot
- Science :D

Mark Albery 02-14-2012 09:48 AM

I've just had a quick look at the thread, and there seems to be quite a mix of fact and fiction here, so thanks to schristo for showing the free body diagram.

Torque is the product of a force and the perpendicular distance from that force to the point of application.

So if you're applying the force at 90 degrees to the wrench then the torque measured (at the wrench) is that force times distance to the end of wrench, and the torque applied to the nut is force times distance from wrench handle to the nut.

So the correction is the ratio of those two distances. Put the crowsfoot at 90 degrees and the distances are the same, so no correction, but otherwise the correction will depend on the length of wrench and length of crowsfoot offset.

schristo has it right.

gstone 02-14-2012 09:54 AM

Has everything to do with science, nothing about religion....
 
Any torque wrench is set to measure the torque where it attaches.... 6 inches long or 4 feet long matters not! It is set to measure the applied force at the attach end. So that measure is constant no matter how long Your wrench is (pun intended) the only thing that changes is the .25 foot long extension that you attach to the end of your torque wrench and that is why the correction is always the same!!

My opinion, I believe it, has not one thing to do with religion. ;)

TThurston 02-14-2012 10:00 AM

How to Test?
 
This discussion raises a question that has concerned me. I have two torque wrenches (cheap and expensive)

Is there a way that I can use wrench B to test the torque applied by wrench A?

Or, can I use my wrench that's newly calibrated to test the torque applied to nuts before calibration?

Or, can I use my basic torque wrench to test the torque applied when I use the device discussed in this thread to see if 0.8 really is the correct value?

Or in general, do I just trust my torque wrench or is there a way I can test it?

marchudson 02-14-2012 10:08 AM

The length of the wrench does matter.
Have a look at the formula for calculating crows foot extension.

Wrench torque = Torque Spec * (Wrench length / (Wrench length + Crows foot extension length))

You can't just multiply your desired torque by .8 and expect to get the value to place into your torque wrench. This .8 value works for a 12" / 1 foot torque wrench only.

The attached image might help clear things up a bit. It assumes that you want to apply 100 FT-LB of torque to a bolt using a 3" extension using three different length torque wrenches. A one, two, and ten foot torque wrench. If you just multiply the 100FT-LB value by .8 and dial in 80 FT-LBS in your torque wrench, you can calculate the different values you will obtain.



As you can see above, you won't be getting 100 FT-LBS of desired torque unless you are using a 1ft torque wrench.
Stick with the formula and it will tell you what value to put into your torque wrench.

gstone 02-14-2012 10:16 AM

Excellent drawing!!!
 
The change only happens between A and B because all the wrenches apply 80 lb ft of torque to the "B" location and B x 1.25 = 100 lb ft of torque....

I believe!.....:)

Ironflight 02-14-2012 10:22 AM

Genius Alan - pure genius! You've managed to keep your ad at the very top of the "New Posts" for over a day! ;)

I'm putting one of your wrenches on my wish list. Now, of course, you need to make one that fits the prop bolts on our WW 151 (I think they are 5/8" heads, but I might be wrong...) - they are different from our Hartzells.

Mike S 02-14-2012 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCHunt (Post 628995)
The reason length doesn't matter is that the torque wrench is indicating the torque on the nut, and not the force on the end of the wrench.

Yep

A wrench handle can be any length, and if the torque reading is calibrated at the nut end of the wrench, it will tell you the torque on the nut, which is what you want.

Yep again

You guys are confusing the nut torque with the force needed at the handle.

All torque wrenches read TORQUE AT THE NUT, not force on the end of the handle.

That's why the length of the handle doesn't matter for torque wrenches.

Taking all bets! :)

Only problem here is torque is a rotational force, around a center point.

Adding the extension changes the location of the center point of rotation, and the head on the torque wrench is now moving in an arc, not rotation.

All that said, I still think the .8 formula is correct, not too sure of the logic presented above-------Pete's or mine:eek:

PerfTech 02-14-2012 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 629087)
Genius Alan - pure genius! You've managed to keep your ad at the very top of the "New Posts" for over a day! ;)

I'm putting one of your wrenches on my wish list. Now, of course, you need to make one that fits the prop bolts on our WW 151 (I think they are 5/8" heads, but I might be wrong...) - they are different from our Hartzells.

"Thank You"!!!!!
It is slowing down a little on the posts so apparently I am going to have to stir it up with the announcement of the new coating we are thinking about changing over to. It's called "Skuzmolimide 151" and I am absolutely positive that we have many experts here with lots of experience in the use and application of this product ( any and all information can only help). Thanks, Allan:D

Lux Wrangler 02-14-2012 11:13 AM

bets?
 
Quote:

Taking all bets!:) - PCHunt
BTW...I assume the smile face means no one is actually taking bets in real life? We are just having a friendly discussion?... right?;)

scard 02-14-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 629087)
Genius Alan - pure genius! You've managed to keep your ad at the very top of the "New Posts" for over a day! ;)

I'm putting one of your wrenches on my wish list. Now, of course, you need to make one that fits the prop bolts on our WW 151 (I think they are 5/8" heads, but I might be wrong...) - they are different from our Hartzells.

Yeah, Alan, you don't say what Size the wrench is! I have a Hartzell C/S prop on my O320 that I'm certain has a different bolt size (5/8") than that on a O360 :). I would love one of your wrenches, but it needs to be the right size :).

PerfTech 02-14-2012 11:36 AM

5/8" C/S Prop Bolts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scard (Post 629105)
Yeah, Alan, you don't say what Size the wrench is! I have a Hartzell C/S prop on my O320 that I'm certain has a different bolt size (5/8") than that on a O360 :). I would love one of your wrenches, but it needs to be the right size :).

Sorry about that Scott, you are correct I somehow overlooked that. The wrench is 3/4" as that is the only size we have seen on C/S props. If we receive the requests for a 5/8" we will make those also. I will contact the propeller manufacturers again today and find out the approximate ratio of 5/8" bolt use. Thank you for pointing this out to us. Allan:)

Garage Guy 02-14-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Paintman (Post 629011)
He has done the math for us

So he says, but he hasn't showed his math to us. Meanwhile nauga and schristo and others have shown math that indicates that the 0.8 correction factor is a special case, and depends on the force on the torque wrench being applied one foot from the torque wrench head.

I suppose Allan is too busy filling orders to do it, but if anyone else wants to step up and show your derivation of a constant 0.8 correction factor, have at it. And while you are at it, show the derivation for the correction factor for torque wrenches that read in-lbs and newton-meters, as well as a ft-lbs one.

--Paul

L.Adamson 02-14-2012 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Guy (Post 629122)
So he says, but he hasn't showed his math to us. Meanwhile nauga and schristo and others have shown math that indicates that the 0.8 correction factor is a special case, and depends on the force on the torque wrench being applied one foot from the torque wrench head.

The math is incorrectly applied. That click you hear and feel is from pre-set spring tension, depending on the torque setting. It won't make a difference if the handle is 12, 24, or 36 inches..........as long as the same torque number is used (such as 100 foot pounds), and the "tool" remains at 3" length.

What you "feel" while pushing the handle will be different. But the nut won't be turning any more, or any less.........just because the handle is a different length.

Garage Guy 02-14-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erich weaver (Post 629034)
When you set the torque wrench for 100 ft lbs, by definition, you are going to have a force of 100 lbs applied 1 foot from the end of the wrench regardless of how long your wrench is

Or, you might have a force of 50 lbs applied 2 foot from the head of the torque wrench. Either way the wrench reads 100 ft-lbs of torque at its head.

But in the first case the torque at the nut is 100 lbs through a 1.25 foot arm, 125 ft lbs, for a conversion factor of 0.8. In the second case that torque at the nut is 50 lbs through a 2.25 foot arm, 112.5 ft lbs, for a conversion factor of 0.89.

Quote:

so that's where the 12 inches comes from. When you add the 3 inch extension, you are applying that 100 lbs to the close end of the extension, but more than 100 lbs to the nut at the far end of the extension. Hence the multiplier of 12/(12 + 3) = 0.8
Follow your logic for a torque wrench that reads in in-lbs. Set it for 1200 in-lbs; by definition that is 1200 lbs 1 inch from the torque wrench head. That's where the 1 inch comes from. When you add the 3 inch extension, you are applying 1200 in-lbs to the close end of the extension, but more at the nut. Hence a multiplier of 1/(1+3) = 0.25.

Something is wrong with that logic! 1200 in-lbs just is 100 ft-lbs. Changing the labels on the torque wrench certainly shouldn't change the multiplier...

Quote:

WOO HOO! Now I can sleep.
Sorry!

--Paul

L.Adamson 02-14-2012 01:21 PM

Another way of demonstrating.

A foot lb. is the force of 1 lb., 12" perpendicular to the pivot point.

If we take 100 lbs, and set it 12" from the pivot point, then it's 100 ft. lbs torque against the pivot point.

If we use a 24" or 36" wrench, we are NOT moving the 100 lbs past the 12" spot on the wrench. It remains at the 12" point. By adding a longer handle, we push with less force, to move that 100 lbs.

With the addition of the 3" tool, the 12" point (which is used for the "foot" in ft/lbs. is now 15". And that's why a fraction is used. 3" & 12" remain as constants.

Lux Wrangler 02-14-2012 01:46 PM

Science
 
Quote:

So he says, but he hasn't showed his math to us. Meanwhile nauga and schristo and others have shown math that indicates that the 0.8 correction factor is a special case, and depends on the force on the torque wrench being applied one foot from the torque wrench head.

I suppose Allan is too busy filling orders to do it, but if anyone else wants to step up and show your derivation of a constant 0.8 correction factor, have at it. And while you are at it, show the derivation for the correction factor for torque wrenches that read in-lbs and newton-meters, as well as a ft-lbs one.
- Paul
It would be nice if everyone saw the math and agreed, but somehow I don't foresee that outcome. I could devise an experiment to prove that the torque wrench length matters. That would be science and perhaps wouldn't satisfy everyone either? Perhaps it could settle a bet? anyone?

380mxc 02-14-2012 02:03 PM

To put it in perspective
 
My torque wrench Proto model J6014C has instructions and a formula
They use 22.57 for the handle length . If you used there formula the multiplier would be .882 (for that wrench only)

If you use a 3 " extension and want to apply 80ft lbs of torque to the bolt
you would set the wrench at 70.56 lbs

If the wrong multiplier was used for that wrench .8 it would set at 64 lbs

They would be under torqued by 9.6% if .8 was used with this wrench

The best thing to do is check with the manufacture of the torque wrench used and you should have the required information.

Be Safe

Tim

WSBuilder 02-14-2012 02:16 PM

Easy Demo
 
An easy way to demo the induced torque would be to use the tool and a linear (non-settable) torque wrench. Torque a bolt with the extension, then read the required torque to loosen without it.

L.Adamson 02-14-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Wrangler (Post 629144)
It would be nice if everyone saw the math and agreed, but somehow I don't foresee that outcome. I could devise an experiment to prove that the torque wrench length matters. That would be science and perhaps wouldn't satisfy everyone either? Perhaps it could settle a bet? anyone?

Sure, try it.

The wrench will still click at the exact same spot, and the nut rotation will still stop at the exact same spot. I don't care if the handle is 3' or 30'.
It's still based on that 12" (for ft/lb.) & 3". Those numbers don't change.

L.Adamson 02-14-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 380mxc (Post 629146)
My torque wrench Proto model J6014C has instructions and a formula
They use 22.57 for the handle length . If you used there formula the multiplier would be .882 (for that wrench only)

If you use a 3 " extension and want to apply 80ft lbs of torque to the bolt
you would set the wrench at 70.56 lbs

If the wrong multiplier was used for that wrench .8 it would set at 64 lbs

They would be under torqued by 9.6% if .8 was used with this wrench

80 * .08 = 64 lbs. at 12"

3 more inches is .25 of 12"

64 * the additional .25 = 16

64 + 16 = 80


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