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-   -   Hex/Allen vs. Torx(Plus) vs. Phillips (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=76933)

FresnoR 10-15-2011 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tram (Post 586254)
You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.


+2.........

Snowflake 10-15-2011 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tram (Post 586254)
You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.

+3. I haven't bought anything yet but have looked on your site a couple of times and had a really hard time finding the screws I wanted.

FlyingArcher 11-28-2011 01:41 AM

Thread Bump
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLewis22 (Post 586306)
Rob,

I sent Spruce the list and they confirmed receiving it but I haven't been given any indication of how long this will take. I'll post updates to this thread when I get them.

Hello Jake,

Any news from Spruce about this? Still very interested to replace most of the Phillips heads with Torx.
Thank you very much for your good lobbying work.

Lars 11-28-2011 08:37 AM

I'll put in another vote for NAS1801 hex head screws. I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, and they are more expensive, but 100 still only cost me $15.20 at ACS. I prefer to use a 1/4" nut driver (obviously) on ,them, but the heads seem to hold up better to a phillips screwdriver.

RVadmirer 11-28-2011 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 586349)
+3. I haven't bought anything yet but have looked on your site a couple of times and had a really hard time finding the screws I wanted.

+4 ......just tried again and couldn't find anything.

APACHE 56 11-28-2011 03:50 PM

Is this correct....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lars (Post 600523)
I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, .

I thought 10/32 - (AN3) is the minimum structural fastener.

Don

Lars 11-28-2011 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APACHE 56 (Post 600702)
I thought 10/32 - (AN3) is the minimum structural fastener.

Don

Yeah, I think you are right. Probably more accurate to note that the NAS1801 fasteners are made from steel to a structural grade spec- 160,000 psi as opposed to the 60,000 psi spec for MS35206 (used to be AN515) screws.

In any case, it's obvious when you take a phillips screwdriver to them. I use good screwdrivers- SnapOn, Wiha, etc- and toss them when they get rounded. In my experience it's pretty easy to destroy an AN515 screw even with a fresh screwdriver. So far, the NAS1801 screws seem more resistant.

JakeLewis22 04-30-2012 05:17 PM

Update
 
I received a private message over the weekend asking about the Torx head screws so I thought I'd post an update to the forum. ACS is not willing to move forward with them so I spoke with Tom at GAHco and he was receptive. Tom said that it's going to "take some time" but he is working on it and he'll let us know when they are available.

I also spoke to Tom about post numbers 38-45 in this string complaining about his web site (an opinion I share). He was very open to the criticism and said that they are in the process of redesigning their web site.

Stay tuned!

scsmith 04-30-2012 06:42 PM

Thanks Jake and Tom
 
I currently have the microfasters brand 6-lobe stainless screws in lots of places. The aluminum-contact places I can think of off hand are floor pan, seat pan, baggage shelves, instrument panel, wing root fairings, wing tips, inspection covers.

The parts are painted, and they don't normally get wet.

We use stainless fasteners into 6061 aluminum in salt water exposure on sailboats all the time. Of course, 6061 is much more corrosion resistant than 2024, but we do sometimes see some galvanic corrosion. I'm starting to take some of the concern for galvanic corrosion to heart.

So, when/if the zinc-plated AN-equivalents with 6-lobe heads show up, I'm all in. Keep us posted.

GAHco 04-30-2012 07:34 PM

Better material is worth it.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lars (Post 600523)
I'll put in another vote for NAS1801 hex head screws. I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, and they are more expensive, but 100 still only cost me $15.20 at ACS. I prefer to use a 1/4" nut driver (obviously) on ,them, but the heads seem to hold up better to a phillips screwdriver.

Most of us want a safe, reliable and reasonably priced fasteners.

The softer fasteners performance is limited, these like (AN515/MS35206 &7), (AN507/MS24693) are very soft fasteners, 60 to 80 Ksi

The next better is the 125 ksi (min) group.
Such as (AN509/MS24694 & MS27039) The best and still reasonable valued are the 160-180 Ksi, such as most NAS Hex Bolts and NAS517 Countersunk heads that look like AN509's. Also in this group are NAS601'S 602'S and 603'S. These look like the AN515'S but are three times as strong.

And yes we will be investigating the Torx "registered trademark" or similar type of drive for the higher alloy fasteners. It is the design and alloy that makes these so rugged and functional.

I myself have used very little of the screws that came with my kit.;)

BillL 04-30-2012 08:23 PM

Just Googling . . . .
 
Is that a word . . well has anyone checked out /www.aaronssixlobescrews.com ? There are apparently high strength torx, 100 deg available down to #6, but not 4-40. I will call tomorrow. Please post if this is a dead end.

Update: I called the number and the answering machine greeting was not professional, i checked the Better Business Bureau link and they have a long list of complaints, several unresolved. For humor, they apparently rent TV's and furniture (not that there is anything wrong with that). I will scratch this source from potential list. GO SPRUCE !!

frazitl 04-30-2012 09:21 PM

i use torx from
 
Microfasteners everywhere i remove screws frequently. W ish GACH could source steel 100 deg. torxs screws... Not striped one yet...

flyingriki 05-01-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillL (Post 654969)
Is that a word . . well has anyone checked out /www.aaronssixlobescrews.com ? There are apparently high strength torx, 100 deg available down to #6, but not 4-40. I will call tomorrow. Please post if this is a dead end.

Update: I called the number and the answering machine greeting was not professional, i checked the Better Business Bureau link and they have a long list of complaints, several unresolved. For humor, they apparently rent TV's and furniture (not that there is anything wrong with that). I will scratch this source from potential list. GO SPRUCE !!

Looked up 8/32 screws and at 3/8" long they are $3.51/each.....! :eek:

For what it's worth, I really like Tom's catalog and web site - it's just the search function that is so difficult to use. Everything is there, just can't find it.....
Still looking for some good 8/32 torx.

GAHco 05-01-2012 08:41 AM

Take time to read Post 50
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frazitl (Post 654994)
Microfasteners everywhere i remove screws frequently. W ish GACH could source steel 100 deg. torxs screws... Not striped one yet...

I am investgating this topic

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...4&postcount=50

AlexPeterson 05-01-2012 08:26 PM

I'm curious why so many have problems with philips type of screws for their aircraft. I've got the regular AN cadmium plated steel ones as well as SS ones on my plane. In 10+ years and as many annuals, I've maybe replaced a couple dozen of them. Get a decent driver (with replaceable bits) and you really won't have many damaged. As has been discussed several times in the past, the torx type of screws have a much thinner cross section between the conical exterior and the lobed drive socket. This is why they are not the best for use in structural parts, like attaching fuel tanks.

Snowflake 05-01-2012 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erich weaver (Post 655309)
Rob,
With all due respect, the website upgrade has already been suggested and acknowledged by the owner. How about we leave that subject alone and let him deal with it as he sees fit?

Point taken, i've deleted my post. I didn't see the owner's acknowledgement of the issue, and the last time I checked (5 months after first mentioning it) the issue was still present.

Snowflake 05-02-2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexPeterson (Post 655332)
I'm curious why so many have problems with philips type of screws for their aircraft. ... This is why [torx] are not the best for use in structural parts, like attaching fuel tanks.

The issue isn't as much with structural parts like fuel tanks, that are installed/removed only rarely in an airplane's lifetime. The issue is with the hundred screws that hold the fairings, seat pans, control channel covers, baggage panels, inspection panels, etc. that get removed and replaced at least once a year at annual time. The design of the phillips head guarantees that the driver will cam out over time, and eventually that will lead to the screwdriver slipping and leaving a nice line across your paint.

Torx sockets are parallel sided and resist camming out by design. Why the phillips head wasn't designed that way as well continues to surprise me. That there have been a dozen or more different designs for newfangled phillips bits that all claim to prevent camming out and stripped heads suggests to me that the problem is more than just in our minds.

longranger 05-02-2012 08:50 AM

Could be worse... could be slotted screws, which if I were King would be illegal to manufacture, own, or use.:mad:

maniago 09-13-2017 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAHco (Post 654954)
Most of us want a safe, reliable and reasonably priced fasteners.

And yes we will be investigating the Torx "registered trademark" or similar type of drive for the higher alloy fasteners. It is the design and alloy that makes these so rugged and functional.

I myself have used very little of the screws that came with my kit.;)


Found this thread and i know its old, but didnt find the discussed torx on your site. Did you decide against stocking torx cads?

vernon smith 09-13-2017 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillL (Post 654969)
Is that a word . . well has anyone checked out /www.aaronssixlobescrews.com ? There are apparently high strength torx, 100 deg available down to #6, but not 4-40. I will call tomorrow. Please post if this is a dead end.

Update: I called the number and the answering machine greeting was not professional, i checked the Better Business Bureau link and they have a long list of complaints, several unresolved. For humor, they apparently rent TV's and furniture (not that there is anything wrong with that). I will scratch this source from potential list. GO SPRUCE !!


Aarons is a combiner and shipper for twenty or thirty little fastener suppliers in the SC aviation heart land. I get Torx screws from them and they eventually arrive and have always been what I ordered. Customer service is non existent and always specify USPS Priority mail or they will send them UPS 3 day which can be expensive. If you don't order at least 100 of any one part number you will get screwed. Also the coatings affect the cost. With SS, black and waxed is a good choice. They do have 4-40 100 degree Torx screws.

IMO Torx are the only way to go if multiple future removals is anticipated. A quality Torx driver bit is also essential, Snap On sells them on line for four bucks a piece.

maniago 09-13-2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vernon smith (Post 1203853)
Aarons is a combiner and shipper for twenty or thirty little fastener suppliers in the SC aviation heart land. I get Torx screws from them and they eventually arrive and have always been what I ordered. Customer service is non existent and always specify USPS Priority mail or they will send them UPS 3 day which can be expensive. If you don't order at least 100 of any one part number you will get screwed. Also the coatings affect the cost. With SS, black and waxed is a good choice. They do have 4-40 100 degree Torx screws.

IMO Torx are the only way to go if multiple future removals is anticipated. A quality Torx driver bit is also essential, Snap On sells them on line for four bucks a piece.

Did a search on Aarons. Wow 6-32 cad plated 5/16" long screws. 10 for $306 cough cough. WTFO? I think I can replace all my phillips 6-32s each annual for the next 10yrs for cheaper than that.

vernon smith 09-13-2017 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniago (Post 1203861)
Did a search on Aarons. Wow 6-32 cad plated 5/16" long screws. 10 for $306 cough cough. WTFO? I think I can replace all my phillips 6-32s each annual for the next 10yrs for cheaper than that.

Most items are priced by their demand, if you buy screws in 1/2" lengths you will see much better pricing, unless you buy at least 100 you will get raped as previously stated. If you only need a couple stay with what you have. I recently removed the instrument panel and wheels pants from a 12. A hundred screw purchase to replace the Phillips removed easily justified the the 100 lot purchase. Unless you are willing to inventory bulk items like fasteners stay with what you have.

maniago 09-14-2017 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vernon smith (Post 1203875)
Most items are priced by their demand, if you buy screws in 1/2" lengths you will see much better pricing, unless you buy at least 100 you will get raped as previously stated. If you only need a couple stay with what you have. I recently removed the instrument panel and wheels pants from a 12. A hundred screw purchase to replace the Phillips removed easily justified the the 100 lot purchase. Unless you are willing to inventory bulk items like fasteners stay with what you have.

I get the massive order Vern, but lets look at reality. 1/2" 6-32 flat head in cad Type #1 (which is silver, and I'm ok with that) is ~$950 for 1000. A reasonable size quantity I think. So a buck a piece. Really. Same size from Spruce in phillips 6 cents a piece in Cad TypII (amber). At no order size up to even 25000 pieces is this cost effective.....unless youre also buying $500 hammers and toilet lids.

GalinHdz 09-14-2017 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 579694)
Microfasteners.com has 100deg torx: http://www.microfasteners.com/catalo...Category=FCMXS

button head:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalo...bCategory=SBXS

I love 'em...they don't strip and they can be torqued tighter than phillips screws. I completely avoid phillips head screws if I can.

FWIW: I replaced all my philiips screws with 100 degree TORX from Microfastners in 2007. They have been excellent in durability and extremely difficult to strip. YMMV

:cool:

maniago 09-14-2017 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalinHdz (Post 1203961)
FWIW: I replaced all my philiips screws with 100 degree TORX from Microfastners in 2007. They have been excellent in durability and extremely difficult to strip. YMMV

:cool:

Those I see are stainless. SS on Al promotes galvanic corrosion in the presence of water.. Do you use them on the exterior of your ship or just interior? If exterior, how have you combated the corrosion issue?

vernon smith 09-14-2017 07:19 PM

Dissimilar metal contact is always a problem and water makes it worse. Since aluminum fasteners are a non starter you make the best alternative choices. SS is a good start, SS coated and waxed is better, there are better coatings available but the cost goes up. The retention features of nut plates does not help the problem because it likes to wipe/scrape off the coating we just spent a lot of money for, which brings me the the issue of Aames prices.

Below is a copy of my last invoice from them for 6-32 and 8 32 x .500 SS coated and waxed. Average cost about $.45 each in quantities of 100. Torx is expensive always (China does not make them yet) SS is always double or triple the cost depending on grade, Coatings are always an added cost and waxing is more still. Are they worth $.45 each? Ask someone that tried to drill out a stripped Phillips head screw without damaging the pieces being screwed together.

I'm not promoting a senseless argument about value, it always in the mind of the beholder (screwer) :D I have no more to say on this topic.


Thank you for your order.

========== GENERAL INFORMATION ==========
Company: Aames General Store, Inc.
Email: Sales@AamesGeneralStore.com
Phone: (714) 838-3575
Order date: 8/21/2017

========== ORDER INFORMATION ==========
Payment By: Visa 4XXXXXXXXXXX2955
Status: APPROVED - 021839
Purchase Order: 794
Order: OnlineOrder_00025253

Product Name: Qty. 100-#6-32 x 1/2, MS Machine Screws, Torx Socket Drive, Flat Head, 18-8 Stainless Steel, Black Oxide & Waxed, RoHS Compliant, Torx Socket T-10 Driver, 82 Degrees Countersink, Machine Screw, Full Thread, DIN 965 Type
Item#: 7040TF2553
Unit Price: $42.28
Quantity: 1
Shipping Method: USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box

Product Name: Qty. 100-#8-32 x 1/2, CS Machine Screws, Torx Socket Drive, Button Head, 18-8 Stainless Steel, Black Oxide & Waxed, RoHS Compliant, Torx Socket T-15 Driver, Cap Screw, Full Thread
Item#: 7041TF2585
Unit Price: $47.43
Quantity: 1
Shipping Method: USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box

Shipping & Handling: $14.10
Grand Total: $103.81

Special Order Instructions
Please ship in USPS small flat rate box.

Draker 09-15-2017 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vernon smith (Post 1204109)
Product Name: Qty. 100-#6-32 x 1/2, MS Machine Screws, Torx Socket Drive, Flat Head, 18-8 Stainless Steel, Black Oxide & Waxed, RoHS Compliant, Torx Socket T-10 Driver, 82 Degrees Countersink, Machine Screw, Full Thread, DIN 965 Type

Maybe a dumb question, but aren't the dimples and countersunk holes in our airplanes 100 degree countersunk, rather than 82?

patterson 09-15-2017 12:09 PM

Snap on Wobble Driver
 
I had the good fortune of getting this advice/recrecommendation from a fellow RV'er. Buy Wobble head driver bits from Snap On. They cost about $6.00 each and are a very handy addition to your screwdriver. These bits have about a 15 degree movement side to side. This enables the user to drive or remove screws that need a slightly off center driving position ( when not able to get the tool squared to the screw). I won't travel without one.

maniago 09-15-2017 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker (Post 1204250)
Maybe a dumb question, but aren't the dimples and countersunk holes in our airplanes 100 degree countersunk, rather than 82?

Not if youre using Homedepot countersink tools! Just kiddin......:D Yes, aviation= 100.

vernon smith 09-15-2017 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker (Post 1204250)
Maybe a dumb question, but aren't the dimples and countersunk holes in our airplanes 100 degree countersunk, rather than 82?

Great catch, several months ago I purchased 100 7032TF2085 8-32 x .5 Torx flat head screws that were listed as 100 degree. I ordered the ones on the order form above more recently. I went to the same area on their web site and ordered the 6-32 assuming it would be 100 degree as well. I looked into it today and they do not list a 6-32 Torx 100 degree.


I sent them a note asking if 6-32 100 degree are available as well as a request for an RA. Now we will see how easy they are to deal with on returns :)

Draker 09-18-2017 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vernon smith (Post 1204346)
Great catch, several months ago I purchased 100 7032TF2085 8-32 x .5 Torx flat head screws that were listed as 100 degree. I ordered the ones on the order form above more recently. I went to the same area on their web site and ordered the 6-32 assuming it would be 100 degree as well. I looked into it today and they do not list a 6-32 Torx 100 degree.


I sent them a note asking if 6-32 100 degree are available as well as a request for an RA. Now we will see how easy they are to deal with on returns :)

Yea, the reason I caught that was I was also looking around online for non-Philips (either Torx or allen head) screws and am typing these criteria over and over. 8-32 + Flat head + 100degree + Cadmium plated + longer than 1/2 inch seems like an extremely difficult if not impossible combination to find.

vernon smith 09-18-2017 08:41 PM

Microfastener lists them all the way down to 2-56. For their prices the source has to be China so all bets are off on quality. That's what I like about aames, you get aviation quality fasteners-at a ridiculously high price. However, usually what we are securing with a 6-32 screw is not life endangering if a failure occurs. From my experience with a Chinese fastener the failure will come with the original tightening, if at all. Usually the problem will be the Torx broached six point hole will strip out. In that case we are right back where we were with the Phillips :confused:

http://www.microfasteners.com/fcmxs0...stainless.html

Draker 09-28-2017 10:07 AM

Thanks for the link to Microfasteners. Unfortunately they don't seem to have #8 screws longer than 1/2 inch. Was hoping to go with torx or allen heads to attach the capacitive plates inside my tanks, but those need to be at least 8R14. The search continues...

RV7A Flyer 09-28-2017 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draker (Post 1207267)
Was hoping to go with torx or allen heads to attach the capacitive plates inside my tanks

Um...why? Planning on putting them in and out a bunch of times? IIRC, I installed them once and then sealed up the tanks. :)

Bicyclops 09-28-2017 04:18 PM

McMaster Carr

https://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-hea...crews/=19l2kub

I like the black oxide ones.

Ed Holyoke

Draker 09-28-2017 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer (Post 1207274)
Um...why? Planning on putting them in and out a bunch of times? IIRC, I installed them once and then sealed up the tanks. :)

Mostly due to my stripping a few heads trying to drive them in at the angle they are. However reading some other tips here, the better solution to that looks like applying some boelube or wax to the thread and using a little patience. Probably makes more sense than using different screws.

Low Pass 09-28-2017 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maniago (Post 1203983)
Those I see are stainless. SS on Al promotes galvanic corrosion in the presence of water.. Do you use them on the exterior of your ship or just interior? If exterior, how have you combated the corrosion issue?

I've been using stainless (austenitic) hex and Torx head screws for ~14, 15 years and they work just fine for a hangared plane. Every no 6, 8, and many of the non structural 10 screws in my plane comes from Micro Fasteners. Just make sure those few snug nutplates have been chased with a tap. That's maybe 1 out of 75-100. I do nothing special for galvanic corrosion except keep it out of the rain.

vernon smith 09-28-2017 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicyclops (Post 1207394)
McMaster Carr

https://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-hea...crews/=19l2kub

I like the black oxide ones.

Ed Holyoke

These appear to all be 82 degree which is understandable, 100 degree is virtually unknown outside the aircraft industry. Few people are screwing together .016" sheets to .032 sheets and the like.

Bicyclops 09-28-2017 08:57 PM

Socket head screws
 
Somebody was asking about socket head screws. The link I posted was right to that page. McMaster is also a good source for wobble Allen driver bits.

I get my cad plated 100 degree countersunk screws from ACS and live with the Phillips head. Once they show any wear at all, I throw them away.

Ed Holyoke

CubedRoot 04-16-2018 01:24 AM

I'm guessing that no one has been able to source 100 degree, flush head, torx fasteners for structural use, such as the fuel tank and inspection panels yet, have they?

I have browsed the micro fasteners website, but they are stainless screws, which are a bit softer than the AN screws Van's supplies. I am not sure I want my fuel tanks held on with them. McMaster only has 82 degree screws :-(


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