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-   -   Under Water Egress Training (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=67952)

N941WR 02-01-2011 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apkp777 (Post 509432)
I am thinking that at splashdown, it would flip upside down and then be nearly impossible to open the canopy?

I have given this a lot of thought and even included a ditching procedure in my POH based on input from a friend and fellow RV builder who ditched a Cherokee in the Bahamas with his wife. They both got out safely and were only in the water about 20 minutes, IIRC.

Their key to success was that as soon as they recognized they had a problem they were talking to flight following, which dispatched their resources immediately, even before the engine stopped.

As for getting out of a tip-up RV, based on my friend's description, I will unlatch the canopy and let it float open before hitting the water. This does not change how the RV flies but may increase your RoD.

Then I'm going to try and do a full stall landing just above the water. With the forward momentum of the RV, I suspect the canopy will flip forward and then back. If the RV is like my friend's Cherokee, it will float nose down and once the pressure stabilizes, you should have no problem getting out.

His Cherokee only floated for a few minutes, so don't expect to use your RV as a floatation device.

The other thing my friend said was that he put his life vest on his lap when he knew he was going in and that was the last he saw of it. The thing probably flew to the firewall on impact. If you are not wearing your PFD, you will not have it, is the lesson I took away from that.

Burke,

Great write up and it is good advice you gave. I can't believe anyone got out of that thing alive.

flyboy1963 02-01-2011 12:37 PM

Egress - tipup, slider, door
 
there was a post here about a fellow who ditched off Hawaii, perhaps it was an -8?
I expect the ship to flip when hitting the water, and operating either type of canopy to be difficult, especially if the airframe distorts....making the tip-up jettison pins an advantage, I'd think ( if so equipped).

Boy, would it suck to flip in a river 5' deep, and be unable to egress, and walk out!

apkp777 02-01-2011 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 509485)
I have given this a lot of thought and even included a ditching procedure in my POH...Then I'm going to try and do a full stall landing just above the water. With the forward momentum of the RV, I suspect the canopy will flip forward and then back.

Bill, I read somewhere a long time ago that someone did some research (either NASA, FAA or NTSB) and discovered that in a tree top landing as well as fixed gear water landing that it was best to do a deep full stall with an exaggerated nose high attitude and literally kill all your fwd speed and let the plan fall into the trees (and water).

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

seward747 02-01-2011 01:45 PM

Timely subject. We just had a local accident here - Cessna on floats flipped on a water landing. Pilot got out but his young son did not.
Most of us who were Navy got extensive training in this area. First was the "Dilbert dunker" simulating a single seat fixed wing type that flips end over end upon hitting the water. You may have seen it in the movie "Officer and a Gentleman". Second, there was the helo dunker. A long tube suspended over the pool simulates a helicopter cabin, with seating for about 6. Each "subject" gets 4 rides in the contraption, the last 2 while wearing balck painted goggles, simulating a night time ditching. In other words, "you can't see %$#&". You're briefed on how to open the simulated door or hatch hardware and your route to such. When the cabin hits the water, it rolls inverted, the direction varies. It gets pretty crazy, esp. the simulated night runs. Six folks trying to get out, people getting kicked in the face, etc.
Pretty realistic and valueable training. The commercial operators do something very similar.
The number one lesson learned? Don't fly in helos, especially at night.:)

Doug
Seattle area
-4, wings

Sig600 02-01-2011 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seward747 (Post 509574)
The number one lesson learned? Don't fly in helos, especially at night.:)


Amen!

If there was another thing I learned with the helo dunker, is that you have to be comfortable letting water go up your nose. I think that was the biggest thing that freaked people out. They would exhale as a reaction, and then suddenly be out of air. Gotta sit there, wait for all motion to subside, and then make your way out. The other big takeaway is you need to be able to unlatch your seatbelt, in one smooth motion with one hand, with your eyes closed. Same for the canopy latch. One of the statistics they told us was the number of people that drown after the accident because the force of the impact causes them to slide forward, and it rolls the buckle or latch over on their stomach. They panic, and never get it undone.

Had a friend ditch a C-152 off Hawaii a few years ago, plane floated long enough for him to go back for his favorite running shoes. He and his wife were fine, plane stayed upright. I think I've said it before, the empty beer cans should keep my RV floating long enough to get out.

For a tip up, I probably would unlatch it and hope the impact flings it forward and just rips it off. For a slider, I'd probably leave it latched, as the force of the impact may slame it closed and jam it.

A6PILOT 02-01-2011 05:11 PM

USN training
 
I have been following this thread with great interest. I just wanted to add that I got this training for free- I just had to fly a few combat missions in SE Asia and fly off carriers for 20 years. :) Seriously, the training was tough but I never had the "Final Exam" That's when you have to do it for real. It's good to think about it before it actually happens to YOU. Signed, Retired USN pilot

60Bubba 02-01-2011 05:22 PM

Most Imortant Emergency Procedure in NATOPS?
 
1. HABD (mini SCUBA bottle) - As Required
2. Cords - Disconnect
3. Door/Window - Open/jettison
4. Place hand on known reference point
5. Harness - Release
6. Exit helicopter.

After egress:
7. Swim clear of helicopter and inflate LPU

Pretty good starting point for an RV egress EP. Apparently, trying to inflate the vest prior to exit is a common problem when people panic. Hence step 7. Also, as someone already said: "wait until all violent motion has stopped" is one of the warnings in our book.

Spare air sells several versions of egress breathing devices for about $300. Not cheap, but might be a good investment for those that fly over water.

As for how to land it, I want as little airspeed as possible. I'd rather stall and fall a few feet. My butt is in a cushioned seat and might survive a few G's. My head is hard, but I'd rather not dig into the water and flip over onto it. My .02.

Case

donaziza 02-01-2011 07:55 PM

About 9 months ago, I was asking about getting out of an RV 8 in the water. Out of all the answers, somebody posted "this" info about a guy who got out in Hawaii. Worth reading.

www.vansairforce.net/articles/Ditching.htm

koda2 02-01-2011 09:01 PM

Helos vs RVs
 
The helos I rode in supposedly immediately rolled inverted and filled with water and we were told that those that tried to egress before then almost routinely never did.
We also flew much of the time at night so memorizing handholds and cabin references was essential, as was periodically demonstrating proficiency in getting a personal scuba(HEEDS) bottle out of a survival vest and activating it. This was done with black-out goggles on and while being held upside down in a pool. If you couldn't get 3 breaths from the bottle quickly, you flunked.
I can also tell you from practicing the manuevers, that its very easy in the dark to get your life support equipment, i.e., PFD, survival vest, helmet, etc, tangled in an exit hatch.
Having a ditching checklist, the right gear, and practicing the escape procedure would seem be de rigeur for flying an RV over open water. Maybe tipup drivers should rethink omitting their canopy jettisoning mechanisms and also unhooking struts, if they plan to fly over open water?
Dave A.
6A build

rv8or 02-02-2011 02:18 AM

Rebreather
 
Just to add a note:

I work in the north sea and we now use rebreathers on our life jackets.
On the last two refresher courses these rebreathers helped immensly on egress from the upturned dunking simulator.

The rebreather is basically a bag that you breath into before you go under and by rebreathing this breath you have an extra vital 90 seconds of air.

Jon Johannson in his book said you need to have all your survival kit attached to you when you get out and he is right.

Rob


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