Wow! Those 3000 grit Trizact discs really work well!

I sense a lack of interest here, but I'm done cutting and buffing the wings. After the 3000 Trizact, I buffed with 3m Perfect-It #1 using a wool pad.



In the bright sun, I could see swirl marks so I bought a qt. of #2 polishing compound ($64 at the local paint shop!!!), and applied that with a flat foam pad. You definitely will want to mask off any control surface gaps and hinges lest you gunk them up with compound. It would also be smart to mask off adjacent areas because that compound slings everywhere.



After cleaning off the #2 Polishing compound, I could still see some fine swirl marks, but I said "screw it". In the shade, my wings have a mirror finish now.

John, nice job.

If I were fine-tuning a new guy in the detail shop...

We quit wool pads years ago. There are polish pads available, but most of the common wool pads are cutters, a method which predates the fine grit abrasive disks you used. I think you would have had fewer swirl marks using a 3M white foam pad. Switch to a black pad for the swirl remover.

The photos appear to show too much compound. You want enough to wet out the surface, but not so much that the pad surfs up off the surface on a layer of liquid. Buff to near (but not quite) dry. You'll hear the machine begin to load up, and the pad will get warm. Go less dry with the last polish/swirl remover step. Think of it this way; we're removing material to make the surface microscopically flat, not adding material, as we would with a wax application.

Of the two kinds of compound I used neither mentioned a key piece of info on the container: it is in fact water-soluble. A foamy bath with microfiber cloth will remove most residue from crevices. But yes, keep the compound out of hinges and bearings as it will abrade them in principle (no cause for worry in practice, very soft abrasive).

Concur with DanH on the use of foam discs not wool bonnets (Harbor Freight ones are fine); they come in different foam stiffness for different steps and leave no swirl marks. After use I wash away the goop from the foam under running water and centrifuge it out at max speed, they last a long time that way. Pro videos show removing dried compound with a screwdriver. I don't like this method as it makes airborne mess and ruins the foam quickly.

Contamination from residue of coarser grade compound will leave visible swirl marks, must wash well between steps!

Dan H and Dan V: Thanks for the encouragement and tips. I still have to cut and buff the fuselage so I'll ditch the wool pad and go with foam pads from Harbor Freight. Question: Will waxing hide swirl marks? I don't want to wax yet because I intend to paint some colored trim first.

P.S. The foam pad I used with the Perfect-It #2 said, "Machine Wash" so that's what I did. I tossed in the washing machine with my microfiber cloths on the "delicate" cycle. The foam pad seemed to come through that process intact. LOL!

uk_figs little nib file got me to thinking. It looked exactly like my Dad's old aluminum file that I had in the tool box. So I got it out today and tried it out. It worked great for removing drips and runs on a convex surface. The serrations cut right into the drips and sags, but skittered right across the adjacent areas without cutting them. Thanks for the tip, Figgs!

I have a bunch of cutting and buffing to do - really appreciate this on-going discussion. Haven't yet found the Trizact discs locally so am planning on doing 600 wet, 1000 wet, 2000 grit 3M Perfect-It buffing compound and 3000 3M polishing compound. I have the 3M foam pads and they seem to work well. Don't have the ability to use air tools (limited by electrical supply, can't run a big compressor) so will be doing it all with electric tools. Have a Makita 7" professional variable speed polisher and a Porter-Cable 6" variable speed random orbit polisher. I'm open to suggestions, given these limitations, of the best way to move forward.

It seemed to me that hand sanding worked just as well (or maybe better) than using the DA, so I think you'll be fine. The Trizact seemed to work a LOT better than the plain papers, but I only used the 3000 grit Trizact. If I had it to do over again (oh wait, I still have my fuselage to do), I would use the Trizact 1000 and 1500 before the 3000. Amazon.com carries the Trizact products; They deliver to Canada, right? Don't worry, if a klutz like me can do this, anybody can.

Looks like one of the ready made versions is the same thing, but shortened way down and with the edges rounded off to prevent digging in -



http://www.tcpglobal.com/STE35250_2.html#.WzFTo6dKhhE

Looks really easy to make a DIY copy. :)

What's the difference between these and the Vixen files I've been using on my airframe?

Dave

Essentially none...

Rounding the edges to prevent digging in would be a good modification though.

Flexible Vixen Files
 

I'm not sure these would work better, but you can buy 14-inch Flexible Vixen Style Body Files

OK, I've got my fuselage wet sanded to 2000 grit and will be using the 3000 Trizact today. I have a question for the experts, though. Which would work better for buffing and polishing, my 9" Milwaukee buffer or my 6" dual action? I need to know before I buy the recommended foam waffle pads. Thanks in advance.

Not hearing back, I bought some smooth foam pads for my 6" DA at Harbor Freight. They come in "Compounding" (or correcting), "Finishing", and "Polishing". I just bought the first two. I guess I'll just try them and see how they do. I also bought a couple larger foam pads for my buffer, but they're Hookit and my buffer just has a rubber pad. I really don't want to spend $60 buying a Hookit backing pad for my Milwaukee.

I also found The Ultimate Beginner?s Guide to Buffing Pads. The site recommends Griot?s Garage Flat Pads for beginners. That would be me. ;)

I finished the fuselage, such as it is. Not hearing back from the "experts" here, I used my 6" DA sander with a foam pad to apply the 3M Perfect-It #1 compound. That was a bad mistake. I had previously wet sanded the fuselage up to 3000 grit Trizact, and it was very smooth, but hazy. After buffing with the DA, it had deep, oval-shaped swirl marks which the #2 and #3 compounds wouldn't remove. The wings came out pretty shiny (with light swirl marks) using the wool pad on my rotary buffer for the #1 compound, and a flat foam pad for the #2 polishing compound. I never used the #3 ultra-fine on the wings. Since the wings came out so well, I should have ignored the "expert" advice against using the wool pad and done the same on the fuselage. As it was, I wasted a week's work and ended up with a mediocre job. Now, if I want a good finish, my only option is to drop back and re-sand the fuselage with the 3000 Trizact (or maybe even 2000) to remove the heavy swirl marks left by the DA and foam pad. Hopefully there is enough paint left to do that if and when I decide to. If there are any lessons here, they would be, 1. DO NOT use a DA sander for buffing, and 2. Use your own judgement instead of listening to "experts".

Hmmm, I use a variable speed rotary for all of it (buffing). Not sure how you avoid edge burn with a DA. I always buff "off" at the edges. Only takes and instant if you hit it the wrong way to take the paint off.

What's a "DA sander"? I use this DeWalt polisher and HF foam pads and never had any issues with scratches from compound, neither the "Meguiar's" brand sold at HF nor the 3M 1-2-3 system. I suspect your compound or pads got contaminated; either that or you had deeper cuts left over from coarser grits that weren't visible after 3000 grit but got conspicuous after the flat areas got shiny.

Finally, I'm no "expert" at this hobby by any stretch of imagination, but was able to achieve amazing results following DanH's advice (see post #55). It did take several months of practice to get there, though, and I'd still rate my performance a "B-". The lesson you learned the hard way is: don't change any parameters of a successful painting process without first testing and re-testing on scrap.

Nobody said it was going to be easy! There's a reason pros charge ten grand for a paint job. Hang in there and you'll be proud of the result for many years.

Nope and nope. The pads were brand new and I wiped down the fuselage after the #1 before going to the #2. Then I switched to a brand new softer pad. No contamination. The "deeper cuts" are oval shaped from my 6" Dual Action Sander and they weren't there after the 3000 grit. The DA and foam pad I used were just too aggressive with the #1 compound. Sorry, but I can't be consistent because I've never done this before (except for the wings which came out pretty well but everybody said not to use the wool pad so I didn't on the fuselage with poor results). With the wealth of knowledge here, I was hoping to get some practical advice before I did something wrong but beggars can't be choosers, I suppose.

It looks like I'll be able to salvage my paint job. I chose a test patch on the top of the fuselage and tried to sand out the swirls with 3000 grit Trizact. It wouldn't cut it (pun intended). So I dropped back to 2500 grit wet-or-dry with a hand pad and that removed the swirls quite nicely using a 0/90 +45/-45 crosshatch pattern. Here's what the swirls looked like before:



Nasty, huh? I did the rest of the fuselage top with the 2500 grit and got all the swirls out. I plan to just repair the top and sides and forget about the underside where the sun don't shine. Next I'll go over it with the 3000 Trizact, then back to the 3M Perfect it. I'm thinking of skipping the #1 compound and going straight to the #2. I'll try a test patch and see how that works. I'll probably apply it with a microfiber pad for a true hand-rubbed finish. I'm scared of buffers now :eek:

You want practical advice? Stick to the tools and techniques detailed in the initial thread posts.

I got the swirls removed from the fuselage using 2500 wet-or-dry, then 3000 Trizact. No harm done to the paint. Now I have to re-buff but I'm going to wait until the hook-and-loop backer pad for my rotary Milwaukee arrives. I don't want to introduce any more of the dreaded swirls, so I'm going to try a test patch somewhere inconspicuous before pressing on.

That was all useful information and I appreciate it. You left a couple things out, though. For example, what is this piece of equipment? Is it dual action, or rotary? I asked a few posts above if it was OK to use DA for compounding and nobody answered. So I went ahead and did it, with disastrous results.



I also asked about using flat buffing pads vs. the egg-carton version and, again, no answer. So I used what was available locally - the flat foam pads. This is the one that damaged my paint:



I don't do this for a living (obviously), so I really couldn't afford to go out and purchase hundreds of dollars of equipment that I would only use once. Maybe I should have... I did buy the three 3M compounds (over $60 per qt.) the 3M Trizact discs ($5 each), and the hookit soft interface pad ($30), but I'll be dipped if I spring for that quick-release backer pad system for a buffer. We're not all independently wealthy out here in Experimental land, you know.

This is probably what I should have used. Maybe I still will: Perfect-It 33662 Quick Connect Foam Pad Kit . At this point, what's another $109?

I used the same orange HF one many times with medium-coarse compound, right after 1500 grit random orbit sander. It takes some work on the tough siloxane topcoat but it leaves an almost-glossy, very even finish. Definitely no scratches like the ones in your photo. A quick pass with the blue pad and fine polishing compound after this produced the shine in my photo above.

If it's not contamination, I'm starting to wonder about the durability of your topcoat. If firm foam can damage it so, is it likely to stand up to the elements and regular bug washing? I doubt that "dual-action" versus simple rotary would make such a difference: if I understand the DA correctly it would just work slower than a regular polisher.

It's PPG Durethane which has been very tough so far. It will remain a great mystery why that orange foam pad worked for you and not me. I have noticed that the foam pads come in three (or more) densities. The more dense ones (like the orange one in the photo) are supposedly for "compounding" and the softer pads are for finishing or polishing. Since I sanded to 3000 grit, I probably didn't even need to "compound" the finish.

Making progress. After sanding out the swirls from the DA and using the Trizact 3000 with a hand pad. I started re-buffing today. I skipped the 3M #1 and went straight to the #2. I think the #1 was just too aggressive - more suitable for removing oxide from a car hood. I think the #2 going to work and I may follow up with the #3 if I don't give out.

I masked off all the control surface gaps and static ports so as not to clog them with compound:


This is the "medium" yellow foam pad I used (Harbor Freight)


I bought a hook-and-loop backer plate on Amazon for my Milwaukee. For some reason, Harbor Freight didn't stock them:


Working my way forward, you can see where I stopped buffing adjacent to the aft end of the side windows. The #2 compound took out the haze you can see forward of that from the 3000 grit. I could see a couple places that needed more buffing. Tomorrow is another day...

The saga continues. In our last episode, I had re-sanded the top of the fuselage with 2500 and 3000 to remove the heavy swirls from the 3M Perfect-It #1 compound and the DA. I had started buffing with the rotary buffer and the #2 compound, and it was looking OK...at first. Yesterday I finished buffing with the #2 and went to the #3 Ultra-Fine, which is supposed to remove swirls. It didn't. All it did was make the fuselage top real shiny but, sadly, it disclosed several areas with scratches from previous hand sanding and other areas that were scuffed looking. Undaunted, I dropped back and re-sanded those areas with 2500 and 3000 grit, and re-buffed with #2 then #3. There were still some scratches and scuff marks showing so I did it all again. After the third time I just threw up my tired hands and said, "That's good enough!".

While stuck in Groudhog Day, I started re-thinking my decision to bypass the #1 compound. Maybe that would have taken out those defects before going to the #2. Maybe the DA was the problem, not the #1 compound. I guess I could run a test using the #1 compound with my rotary buffer. Someday I may do that. That's the great thing about cutting and buffing: You can always come back years later and work on it some more...at least until you run out of paint :eek:

Here's the back side of the buffing pad I was using on the #3 compound. I thought it worked well - the beveled front face made it easy to hold the buffer at a slight angle like DanH recommended. I used a yellow pad for the #2 and a black (softer) pad for the #3 - both from Harbor Freight. After use, I am storing them in gallon baggies so as not to become contaminated.

Thanks for continuing to share your saga. Much good knowledge being gained here, without the investment in sweat!

I just wanted to keep DanH's thread going, because he provided a professional view of how it should be done. I'm just providing an amateur's experience, and it ain't pretty. I'm getting there eventually, though (hopefully). When I got home from the hangar today, I did a load of microfiber cloths in the laundry. Anyone attempting cutting and buffing should buy at least 25 'cause they're gonna' use 15 per day or more.

This was done with 1500 Trizact, then #1 and #2 compound, nothing else.





We use retired hotel towels from the local rag man.

It looks great in the hangar, but what about in the sun? That's where my swirl marks really show up. Maybe I should just fly in the dark? :rolleyes: So did you use a DA with the #1 compound, or a rotary buffer? I found a small patch on my fuselage where I can still see scratches and am thinking about trying to remove them with the #1 and a foam pad in my rotary buffer. Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment...

Ok then...

As stated in the very first post, 4th paragraph, light colors are less of a swirl problem, while dark colors may require a few extra steps. You're cutting a white airplane.

The photo you posted....



...appears to show the result of dirt/grit under the pad, not buffer swirl. Lots of ways for it to happen. Running a fan to stay cool while working in a hangar would be a good example, or just working with the doors open on a breezy day. In the early posts, note I'm working inside a paint booth set up in my shop...no dirt, filtered air.

There's no reason to cut a whole project with a dirty pad. Paint damage is easy to catch in a few square feet if the operator is paying attention. How to see what you're doing is also in the first post, 6th paragraph. Best bet is to look at the reflection of an overhead fluorescent tube fixture; moving your vantage point sweeps the tube across the surface. See the photo below. The average hangar doesn't have appropriate lighting, so you need to set up lights for the work. The same is true for painting.



If you can see damage of any kind in bright sun, it's bad. Buffer swirls, scratches, and even hail damage are all least obvious in noontime sun. Low sun angles show more. Swirls are most visible after sunset, when viewed under typical metal halide lot lighting. On the lot at night is where detailer skill is rated.

You seem fixated on my use of a cut down 3M pad on a DA sander. It's described in post 27, which is pretty clear. The DA is a handy way of buffing small parts when working by yourself, as you can hold them in one hand and cut with the other, something you can't do with a big buffer. For what it's worth, I mostly allow the pad to rotate. I've never cut a big panel that way, because it would be a waste of time, and I have no idea what happens with foam pads from Harbor Freight.

Bottom line is that with care, it's not anywhere near as hard as you're making it appear. And you can excoriate "the experts" as you please, but brother, it's a crappy way to garner additional help.

The pad that made those swirl marks was brand new, sorry. Anyway I got them out as I described. Today I zeroed in on a small patch with a couple of scratches. I used the #1 compound on a black foam (soft) pad and my rotary buffer. That combination didn't take out the scratches so I fell back on the 1500/3000 grit with a foam hand pad. That removed the scratches so I buffed over that area with #1 and #2 (using a different pad, of course). It's all shiny now in the sunlight with no visible scratches or swirl marks. I think I'm done cutting and buffing now and am moving on to the colored vinyl trim. Thanks for all the suggestions.

I waxed the top of the wings today with Mother's California Gold carnuba wax. I think it looks pretty good. You can't even see the spots that I had to touch up and blend in.

I continue to watch this saga unfold. Have been too busy flying to polish. Soon... I keep telling myself!

Dumb question for those who have done this before. I have different paint colours abutting each other. Am wondering if I can just cut and buff right over the joint or whether I'm best to mask the dividing line and cut and buff each colour separately?

Is one color on top of the other, or are they butted up against each other? Hopefully one of the pros will answer but if it's the former, I would mask and do each color separately.

My plane is pretty shiny now. It will never, ever, be perfect, but I'm happy: Video Evidence

If you?re working with single stage paint, I.e. no clear coat on top, then I?d do the two colors separately. If both colors have clear coat over the top, then it won?t matter because you?re actually working with the clear coat, not the underlying color.

If you?re working with the actual color, it?s a good idea to mask and do the colors separately because one color could ?stain? (for lack of a better word) the adjoining color.

Of the several bids I got for painting our new plane, two of them were for base/clear, 3 colors with cut & buff. The cut & buff added $8,000 to the cost of the paint job.

$8,000 seems like enough!

It?s a bunch of work, and not for everyone, but I really like the finished product. My Midget Mustang has painted graphics under a bunch of clear coat. I wet sanded the fuselage under the supervision of the paint shop. The painter ended up doing most of the buffing. 10 years later it still looks fantastic.

I?ll definitely do it on the F1 Rocket I?m hoping to complete within the next 15 years and 2 days.

Cut and Buff
 

I'm going to cut and buff some small parts. Canopy skirt and windshield trim.
The electric buffer and pads are long term use items but the Trizac disks are really expensive.
For small area, does anyone know if I can just hand wet sand with 1500, 2K and 3K?