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-   -   2009 Fatal RV Accidents (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=52535)

JonJay 01-08-2010 02:07 PM

Your are right...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whifof100ll (Post 394392)
If you are competent in spins and feel it is a benifit to your safety training, you might consider practicing spins in your RV-6? I don't know about your RV-6, but in mine, I tested to 2 turn spins during Phase 1. I've read lots of bad stuff about RV-6 spins, but my experience is that if you are within Van's suggested W&B envelope for acro in the RV-6 (1375#, 68.7-75.3"), 2 turn or less spins are great. I do not enter them below 3K ft AGL, but the altitude loss does not seem to be worse than a C150 aerobat. My RV-6 goes into a spin rather abruptly and spins kind of quick, so it took me by surprise the first time I tried it. When I apply anti spin control, the spin stops immediately. Now that I'm used to it, I find them lots of fun. I've not tried more than a 2 turn spin because of other posts on the topic and I just chicken out. I definitly recommend against trying spins (or any acro) when operating outside of the acro CG limits van's recommends.

I tested to two turns in phase I as well. I do them occasionaly, but not enough to call it practice. As you know, you have to be really committed to start the spin and then hold it until it fully develops. Any amount of release of pressure until it is fully developed and the darn thing just fly's right out of it!
Vans actually makes a statement somewhere that although they do not recommend spinning the 6, they are unaware of any incident or accident that resulted from lack of recovery.
Good stuff.

JonJay 01-08-2010 02:09 PM

Agreed....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toobuilder (Post 394428)
My point was presented poorly, let me try again.

My snap roll was the result of exceeding the critical angle of attack while in sloppy, uncoordinated flight. This is exactly what causes a base to final stall/spin, so in that respect they are the same scenario. In my example, the airplane passed through the incipient stall warning phase so quickly that I was only able to recognize the event after the airplane was fully stalled and rotation had begun. However, because of the relationship I have with my airplane, I responded instantly and correctly without even thinking about it. Which even reinforces my point further - How can a "competent" pilot, one who truly knows the limits of his airplane, possibly allow a "wing wagging, slushing scenerio prior to stall" degrade into a fully developed spin?

My answer - a "competent" pilot most likely will not. If the airplane is giving enough warning for someone on the GROUND to recognize it, what does that say about the pilot?

Points to poor stick and rudder skills.

I am shocked when I hear about these types of accidents. I just cant imagine being so out of touch with the airplane.

Toobuilder 01-08-2010 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B25Flyer (Post 394402)
David,

I must strongly disagree. To say that we can not, and should not, discuss and learn ADM is in a forum like this is wrong.

I believe that ADM can be more effectively taught in a forum like this than basic flying skills.

The costs and time constraints that you accurately mention are exactly why we need to have discussions like this, so that those not in Commercial or Military aviation can learn from some very highly experienced pilots who have that knowledge and experience and can share it here.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Without diminishing your points, I'd like to add some perspective.

While I agree that commercial and military flying has benefitted much from formal ADM, there is a huge difference between flying as a "process" (commercial and military) and flying as a "skill" (the rest of us). I count many close friends who are current or former military aviators, and I have learned a great deal from many of them, but it was a recent comment from a current KC-135 pilot which spoke volumes. After flying with me in the Hiperbipe he said, "you know, I have thousands of hours in Air Force aircraft, but I really didn't know how to fly until I got checked out in a taildragger". Many other of my friends have also expressed similar sentiments. This is also why the Navy and Air Force test pilot schools will use a variety of light aircraft as test platforms for their students. In fact, I read an article that described an aircraft used in the Navy test pilot syllabus that could quickly humble the hottest F-18 pilots - the Pitts S2.

As it turns out, "heavy iron" is largely flown by numbers on a performance chart - it's largely a process to be managed. On the other hand, those of us with the bug smashers have to "feel" what is happening to fly safely - numbers on a performance chart are a good guide, but don't tell the whole story by a long shot.

The fact is, most military and commercial aviators have as much to learn about "aviating" as the rest of us do about ADM... Let's make sure not to ignore one for the other.

B25Flyer 01-08-2010 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay (Post 394431)
I am shocked when I hear about these types of accidents. I just cant imagine being so out of touch with the airplane.

Jon,

I am not picking on you, but this statement points to the root of the problem... We read an accident report about a base to final SSCBD Stall, Spin, Crash, Burn, Die, and surmise, What kind of idiot could do that?

What if you knew the guy and he was just as capable, and current as yourself? Ya see, I have lost lots of really good friends, many of which were far better fliers than I could ever hope to be..... And absolutely capable of doing what ever it was that killed them, had not some other small factor not been loaded in their wagon on that day....

That's why I am in a continuous search for the human factors that caused my friends to bust their butts.... Because if it happened to them, then it certainly could happen to me....

That search, not always, but often, leads to ADM, in short, attitude. I like understanding how things work, and the mind of a pilot provides an endless amount study....

The other reason why ADM intrigues me so much is that I fly nearly 400 hrs per year. I am 51 years old, and there is little chance that my stick and rudder skills will get a whole lot better in the next 25 years that I intend to continue flying, if I can.

I fly in some very high risk aviation environments, Warbirds, Airshow Low level Acro, Homebuilts, First Flights, Multi-engine Flight Instruction... The best chance I have of beating the odds are exploiting every thing that puts another ace in my deck and these kinds of discussions give risk management top of mind awareness for me.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Toobuilder 01-08-2010 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay (Post 394431)
I am shocked when I hear about these types of accidents. I just cant imagine being so out of touch with the airplane.

Me too! Yet they are out there - in large numbers. How many are on this board, I wonder?

Toobuilder 01-08-2010 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B25Flyer (Post 394443)
Jon,

I am not picking on you, but this statement points to the root of the problem... We read an accident report about a base to final SSCBD Stall, Spin, Crash, Burn, Die, and surmise, What kind of idiot could do that?

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

However, we all know of pilots who DO "lock up" when things get out of their comfort zone - THESE are the pilots that come to mind in accident reports, not those that fought and lost a heroic battle with the airplane.

JonJay 01-08-2010 03:31 PM

Kind of taken out of context....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by B25Flyer (Post 394443)
Jon,

I am not picking on you, but this statement points to the root of the problem... We read an accident report about a base to final SSCBD Stall, Spin, Crash, Burn, Die, and surmise, What kind of idiot could do that?

What if you knew the guy and he was just as capable, and current as yourself? Ya see, I have lost lots of really good friends, many of which were far better fliers than I could ever hope to be..... And absolutely capable of doing what ever it was that killed them, had not some other small factor not been loaded in their wagon on that day....

That's why I am in a continuous search for the human factors that caused my friends to bust their butts.... Because if it happened to them, then it certainly could happen to me....

That search, not always, but often, leads to ADM, in short, attitude. I like understanding how things work, and the mind of a pilot provides an endless amount study....

The other reason why ADM intrigues me so much is that I fly nearly 400 hrs per year. I am 51 years old, and there is little chance that my stick and rudder skills will get a whole lot better in the next 25 years that I intend to continue flying, if I can.

I fly in some very high risk aviation environments, Warbirds, Airshow Low level Acro, Homebuilts, First Flights, Multi-engine Flight Instruction... The best chance I have of beating the odds are exploiting every thing that puts another ace in my deck and these kinds of discussions give risk management top of mind awareness for me.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

I do get your point. I know it can happen to me, but I am still surprised, and indeed shocked, when I hear about stall/spin accidents.

B25Flyer 01-08-2010 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonJay (Post 394461)
I do get your point. I know it can happen to me, but I am still surprised, and indeed shocked, when I hear about stall/spin accidents.

Jon,

If you agree that it could happen to you, or someone else with good stick and rudder skills, then don't you believe discussing the factors beyond the stick and rudder stuff is a worthwhile exercise?

The first step in that process is acknowledging the risk, that is what started this thread, 18 dead friends in RVs last year.... Too many...

And then following up by discussing stuff like ADM, risk mitigation, recurrent training that includes self critique of both basic flying skills and ADM skills....

That is the whole point of this exercise and I appreciate very much your questions that keep the ball rolling and moving in new directions.

As you can tell I am passionate about this issue. In the Warbird world we have terrible accident statistics. I was the chief of Stand-Eval in the CAF when we had a rash of accidents that was going to ground our fleet because of insurance. Myself and others went on a crusade to change the culture within that community.

It is really tough work, and to some degree it requires a generational shift. We have to teach the young ones well. There is little hope of changing the overcoming the habits of a lifetime in the old hardheads. Most believe, and I hope, that we are making some slow progress in the Warbird world. We have a long way to go however.

Tailwinds,
Doug

jrs14855 01-08-2010 04:32 PM

SPINS
 
An interesting study is to look at the history of competetion aerobatics in the US in the IAC era. Spins are a part of almost every competetion flight. In 20 years of involvement, I do not recall a single incident or accident involving a spin in a contest. In the Advanced and Unlimited categories spins are frequently done at low altitudes. Conversely, IAC has a horrid record of members spinning into the ground during practice flights. My only explanation is that the contests are a much more disciplined environment, where there is little or no tolerance for showing off. This is at best, a partial explanation.

Regarding the base to final scenario, the top rudder stall/incipient spin is very recoverable in most light aircraft if addressed early enough. In the bottom rudder scenario, if the pilot winds up even slightly inverted, recovery is unlikely, unless the pilot is very proficient in aerobatics.
One article about the 2009 Unlimited Gold Reno Race talks of two cases where there was a momentary loss of control in wake turbulence. Both were non events because of pilot skill. This at 500 m/h a few feet off the ground.

RV8R999 01-08-2010 04:40 PM

Mike - While military aviation does have a subset of missions that GA does not, I believe our ORM process absolutely applies - in fact it applies to hanging Christmas lights on the house, or frying a turkey in a 10 gal vat of boiling peanut oil (and if you have not had this you are missing out...but I digress). ORM can and should be used everywhere to minimize all sorts of avoidable mishaps in and out of aviation. I require all my troops to conduct an ORM evaluation prior to going on leave outside a 300 mile radius..nothing to do with flying. We ask our Mx chiefs to conduct ORM prior to spotting the aircraft on the flight deck (too many guys getting rolled over with a 25,000 lb aircraft). Going hunting for the weekend..conduct ORM. Going to the beach with the kids...ORM (sunburn, undertow, sea life are all potential hazards that can easily be mitigated through a 3 minute discussion with the kids). Going boating...ORM. Point made?

The GA pilot mission could be to get from Pt A to Pt B.. (which has caused a lot of GA pilots to die due to poor fuel management). Unnecessary risk associated with this mission would be to accept weather conditions the pilot has not trained in or the airplane is not equipped to handle. Or choosing a route over mountainous terrain when another less dangerous route exists.

Or the mission might be to practice aerobatics just for fun. Unnecessary risk would be to conduct a loop at 500 ft when the same loop could be done at 5000 ft.

And it is absolutely not impossible to teach ADM or ORM outside a classroom. I'm also a CFI and do this every flight and during every BFR through the use of scenarios - be creative and give your student a cross-country scenario in which fuel management is a critical factor and see how their thought process progresses. Guide them when they go astray. Take the controls from your student and while you distract them with great questions, start a slow descent and see if they catch you and question you about it. Simulate a bird strike at altitude and do not allow them to fly back to home base...evaluate their decisions through discussion. There is so much more to training and mentoring than flying airspeed and altitude but it does take some prep and creative on your part.

As a formally trained test pilot I've had the good fortune to fly a ridiculous number and type of aircraft (including a blimp - which is a lot harder than you might think!) and one thing I've learned - you can teach a monkey to fly any plane well enough (I'm looking in the mirror folks) but it takes a lot of effort to teach them good judgement and it will never be good enough for all circumstances.


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