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-   -   Would you consider FADEC? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=38366)

gasman 01-12-2009 06:21 PM

Wall said Andy..............

rv6ejguy 01-12-2009 09:17 PM

Hot or cold starting is no problem with EFI once it is all tested and programmed properly.

At the quantities required for the aviation market, injectors and other fuel hardware is readily available from hundreds of vendors. Supply is not a problem.

I agree with Andy, no need for a red knob once everything is programmed and tested. The FADEC will do a better job than a human over the course of startup, taxi, climb and cruise. Always optimized for best power and lowest fuel flow.

IMO doing fuel injection is actually less work than EI. Many of the problems with the popular aviation EIs are due to lack of testing in my view plus some questionable design work as well. Heat and moisture need to be managed with electronics and some vendors in this field do stuff that would never pass first review in the automotive world.

One of our clients is about to start flight testing a low cost experimental EI/EFI setup for Lycoming 4 cylinder engines. I don't think there is a big market for $6K+ FADECs in the experimental world.

With the success of one of our other clients in Reno Super Sport Class last year using EI/EFI, many others are suddenly interested in the advantages it offers over conventional controls- especially in this high workload environment.

jarhead 01-12-2009 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N941WR (Post 289078)
I think that is why you haven't seen a real push for aviation FADEC in anything other than helicopters.

Just about every new-design aviation turbine engine, whether it's turboshaft or turbofan, is FADEC-equipped. Even the majority of "growth" engines are FADEC'd in the upgrade process (example - CFM56).

Mel 01-13-2009 07:31 AM

Price vs. Reliability
 
I find it very interesting that almost 50% of the voters are interested in price, and less than 18% are concerned with reliability.

rv6ejguy 01-13-2009 09:13 AM

I think many have expressed concern with reliability by saying they wouldn't buy until many tens of thousands of flight hours prove they are reliable- rightly so.

DaneP 01-13-2009 10:50 AM

Flying W/ FADEC
 
I can say that I like flying an aircraft with FADEC. I never liked messing with the mixture control. I prefer to start it up and go flying. I have not had problems with fowled plugs (too rich) or burned pistons (too lean). I get good gas mileage and plenty of power at all altitudes and I don't have to think about it. Would I use FADEC again on another airplane? Probably, but it's not a slam dunk either. Aerosance is out of business and future support is in question. If Lycoming came out with a system, I would definitely give it a look.

Dane Patterson
RV-8 w/ IOF-360

John Clark 01-13-2009 11:04 AM

Exactly...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy (Post 289322)
I think many have expressed concern with reliability by saying they wouldn't buy until many tens of thousands of flight hours prove they are reliable- rightly so.

I have no doubt that a reliable FADEC could be engineered. The problem is how does the manufacturer recoup the money spent on the engineering and testing? The market is so small and the development costs so big that no one with any business sense is going to take the risk. This leads to people trying to produce the product without the capital and development required and then sell it "before its time."

Personally, in my slightly "steam gauge" mind there is another issue. I like to be involved in the process when I am operating a vehicle for fun. As much as I admire the seamless performance of my Audi A4 with it's electronic engine controls, I much prefer my old Alfa Romeo for a sporting drive. It "needs me" the Audi doesn't. Same with aircraft. When I was flying turbines for a living I was very fond of all the PFM* that made my job easier but for fun, I enjoy doing some manual engine management.

(* Pure Flaming Magic) :D

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

kbehrent 01-13-2009 11:31 AM

I did, sort of....
 
I went with the Eagle EMS from Precision Airmotive. They are the manufacturers of the SilverHawk fuel injections along with a Bendix clone for the certified market.

The Eagle encompasses dual electronic ignitions and electronic fuel injection. It does NOT control the prop. It eliminates the hot starts and constantly adjusts the fuel mixture for all phases of flight. If you are really wanting to run lean, you can manually lean by an additional 10% using the supplied small dial.

I bought my system from Aerosport who is the most knowledgeable about the system and have done several builds and tests on this 320s, 360s, and 390s. It cost me $2,500 more going this route vs the typical mag/light speed and Silverhawk installation.

It contains all the backups that one would expect. It does require it's own battery backup for which I use a small 3.6 Amp Hr battery that the Eagle will monitor and maintain. The Eagle uses 1.6 Amp per hour, so that gives me a couple of hours of runtime, which is plenty to find a place to land.

Hope to be flying by June.

Danny7 01-13-2009 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_RR (Post 289134)

As far as operation, safety and reliablity, unquestionably it could be made to better than six-sigma reliability and "perfect" cold starting, altitude operation and optimum fuel consumption are a given. (BTW, LOP operations become meaningless as soon as you fiddle with the igniton angle - there is no need for a mixture knob - really! :))


can you explain how that works (not needing lop if you can adjust ignition angle) in a short post for someone that doesn't know what you are talking about?

John Clark 01-13-2009 02:35 PM

I'm interested too!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny7 (Post 289371)
can you explain how that works (not needing lop if you can adjust ignition angle) in a short post for someone that doesn't know what you are talking about?

I am looking forward the the explanation too. The fuel mapping that I have seen on EFI engines goes very lean of peak when conditions are right.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA


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