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-   -   Poll On Fuel Used; 100LL, Mogas, Cargas, Or mixture (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=29962)

gmcjetpilot 05-15-2008 02:21 AM

Right on, it is doable
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geico266 (Post 222640)
We can debate 100LL -v- Mogas all day long, but the facts are alot of us have used it safely for years and with fuel prices what they are I suspect more pilots looking towards their local gas stations for relief.

Right I totally agree its all manageable but needs to be taken seriously. Of course the truck, tank, pumps, time and effort are there, but the point you make is well taken, there is a right way and a wrong way.

That is the main point, you open yourself up to possible issues. Some airports also will not allow you to fuel your plane from your own containers in any fashion. Some say liability, some say regulations or fire codes. No doubt taking sales from their airport pumps is a factor. Fueling in the hanger is a no-no by most fire codes and common sense.

Also 5000 gal is a lot-O-fuel. If your RV burns 10 gal/hr for example and you fly 150 hrs a year, high by most standards, that is 1,500 gal. However to get your own fuel you need all the gear, which cost money. I don't have a truck and pretty soon with gas prices I might get a Vespa! ha-ha :D

The best deal I've seen was a friend who lived on a small community airport, nothing fancy, an airport truck. keys under the visor, with a nice tank, filter, meter and pump. It was self serve, you pump and made an entry on the log sheet, on the honor system. You paid your fuel bill at the end of the month. They used 100LL, but got a volume discount. It was a cool deal.

Not sure what the savings would be if your own 500 gal tank and shared with a group even with Av fuel? I'm sure regulations and hassles would get in the way.

Geico266 05-15-2008 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 223189)
Also 5000 gal is a lot-O-fuel. If your RV burns 10 gal/hr for example and you fly 150 hrs a year, high by most standards, that is 1,500 gal. However to get your own fuel you need all the gear, which cost money. I don't have a truck and pretty soon with gas prices I might get a Vespa! ha-ha :D

I fly about 200 hours a year so using Mogas has a big cost benifit to me. My fuel tank trailer, pump & filters cost about $500 to build, so the savings of $5,000 is well worth the investment, and I still have a fuel trailer worth $500. ;)

The trailer loaded with fuel is approximately 850 pounds. Your Vespa would tow that! Stopping is another matter though. :eek:

RScott 05-15-2008 08:00 AM

Someone mentioned convenience or inconvenience with hauling 5 gal. cans. There's another aspect to the this issue. Where do you get your fuel? If your airport has 100LL, then 100LL is easy. But if there is no fuel on your airport, then hauling mogas can be more convenient. For me, the gas station is on the way to the airport. Throw the jugs in the back of the pickup, fill up on the way to the airport, test the fuel and fill the plane. Other choice is fly 20 mi. to an airport with fuel, which may or may not be in the direction I want to go. If your plane has a small fuel tank, as mine does, you spend a lot of your flying just to go get fuel.

I'd rather haul mogas in 5 gal. jugs--for me it is more convenient.

airguy 05-15-2008 08:14 AM

Why not do as the farmer crowd does, at least for those of us that drive pickups, and put a 50 or 75 gallon tank with a 12-volt gear pump in the bed of the truck? They will work just as well for mogas as they will for diesel. That way you've always got fuel with your wheels, electrically pumped, with a standard pump dispensing handle. Park your pickup in your hangar while you're flying, and fuel the plane when you return. Top off the pickup tank on the way home.

JHines 05-15-2008 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot (Post 223189)
<SNIP>

That is the main point, you open yourself up to possible issues. Some airports also will not allow you to fuel your plane from your own containers in any fashion. Some say liability, some say regulations or fire codes. No doubt taking sales from their airport pumps is a factor. Fueling in the hanger is a no-no by most fire codes and common sense.

<SNIP>

Don't forget that if the airport was developed or improved with federal money they can not prohibit self-fueling.

wingtime 05-15-2008 10:20 AM

I'd like to hear more about this!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JHines (Post 223267)
Don't forget that if the airport was developed or improved with federal money they can not prohibit self-fueling.

That sounds great to me. How did you find that out and where can I learn more about this "law"?


I have a friend of mine who used to fly traffic spotting in his 150 for a radio station. He flew six hours a day five days a week for several years burning a 50/50 mix of 100LL and car gas. He had a tank with a 12v fuel pump and filters in the back of his pickup he used for transporting the car gas. He never had a problem after switching to the 50/50 and his problems with lead fouling and stuck valves went away.

JHines 05-15-2008 11:42 AM

It is part of the obligations that are attached to federal grant money.

Here is a link to an Advisory Circular explaining it:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...150_5190_6.doc

Basically, they can implement safety rules but they can't be "unreasonable", or can they totally prohibit self-fueling. The AOPA has a lot more information.

Steve 05-15-2008 12:02 PM

$$$ saved
 
I'm using avgas in my new ECI at least through the 40 hour phase 1 period. To save some money, I asked my FBO to sell me 350 gallons of 100LL and what kind of fixed price can you give me?
It was a big check (credit card would've added another 2%) but I figured pay now or pay more later. Gas prices aren't going down.

Something to think about,
Steve
N345SF

grantcarruthers 05-15-2008 12:02 PM

I answered mix of LL and Mogas as I don't have Mogas available all the time and am still experimenting with it for compatability in my -4. The mogas I can get is at GRE/Greenville IL and is 93 oct and so far has run flawlessly (I only run 91 or better as the peterson STC that would apply to my engine specifies premium, 160 horse O-320). In fact I just owner assisted on my condition inspection and my plugs were spotless and all engine, oil, compression inspections were perfect. In fact my engine comps were up from last inspection, which is likely just tester/measurement error but who knows, so maybe the rings/valves are cleaner too and sealing better.

In regards to the answer of "Mix LL/Mogas" I have run mixes of the two together and I have run 100% premium airport Mogas by itself without issue (to 11500 ft BTW, admittedly at low OAT so far). As summer heats up I will finalise my test/confidence in the 93 octane but so far I prefer it to LL. If they were the same price I'd take the premium mogas (in fact at GRE there's only 20-40 cents difference).

tmbg 05-15-2008 01:44 PM

just a quick note:


I put car gas in my 150hp cherokee all the time. I've got an STC for it, placarded for 100LL or 87 octane automotive fuel.

I spent $50 or so and bought one of those large, high flow water separating filtering funnels from spruce. It makes it faster and easier to get forty gallons of fuel into the tanks from 5 gal cans, plus it does a VERY effective job of taking the crud and debris out of the fuel, and you'd be surprised how much crud there is!


I've run about 300 hours worth of car gas with zero problems other than the fact that it's a bit inconvenient to fuel. Considering car gas is currently $3.70 and avgas at RYY is $5.30, it's worthwhile.


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