LS1 Based FWF from Vesta
 

Has anyone out there had any dealings with Vesta Inc. Propultion Systems?

They have a FWF package that looks like a good fit for the RV-10

Dave Hertner

I've corresponded and talked to Jason Day with VESTA Inc. about a FWF package for the RV-10. He seems very knowledgeable about his product. Everything sounds good, but I want to see his work. Hopefully he will be at Sun N Fun in April with an LS-1 engine package. My fuselage kit will ship in February, so I'll be having to make a decision regarding an engine this spring. I'm trying to collect as much information as possible ( and save some money)before I make the leap. I'm definitely on the fence. Anyone care to push me off? ;)

Bill Gipson
Conroe, Texas
RV-10 Wings

Ls1 Rv-10
 

Bill, I am skeptical of an LS1 based system fitting in a RV-10 without weight and cooling issues. You should see an engine RUNNING IN A COWL MOCKUP before you believe anything you see with V8 based engines. I would like to say that I like the LS1 engine, I'm building an RV-10, and would love a less expensive engine package. That said very few V8 packages work unless the aircraft was designed around them. Cooling in climb and on the ground is always a problem. The RV-10 stresses in the fuselage are handled in the lower portion of the fuselage, there is a great deal of ribbing in the floor. This is important because a P-51 style belly scoop and radiator just won't fit. There are many sources quoted sying that you need approximately 2-3 cubic inches of radiator per HP. Most times you will find you need more unless you have a VERY good duct design. You will need AT LEAST 600 cubic inches of radiator if you want to be able to use anywhere near the 300+ HP the engine is capable of making. A very solid PSRU (preferably gear drive) is also needed. The LS1 is light for a V8 but once you mount the PSRU it will go around 450 lbs. If someone says less make them show you the package on a scale, (and then check the scale!) The Team 38 iron block engines weigh 420+ for the engine alone. Then you need to mount the radiator/s and oil coolers. The problem with V8's is that if you don't run the exhaust straight out of the cowl you run out of room in there. This doesn't mean that it can't be done, just that it's much harder to be successful than most people think. The Subaru is a great example, it has the perfect planform for most aircraft, a flat 4. Most models are rated at HP higher than needed in the planes to which they are being fitted and yet Eggenfellner is the ONLY outfit currently selling a SUCCESSFUL over the counter package. The job of conversion is tougher than it looks. Be CAREFUL! DO NOT PAY FOR A COMPLETE PACKAGE UP FRONT! Use an escrow account or demand to have several flights in a aircraft with the conversion in place. Lastly if the demo aircraft doesn't have at least 100 hours of trouble-free airtime wait or give it a pass. You will be happier later not having wasted your money. There is too much snake oil out there right now.
Bill Jepson, rotary10-RV

Follow-up on Vesta
 

Bill G,
I checked out the Vesta web site. The use of the Hi-Vo chain drive is passable. The radiator layout is, Total BS sorry to say. The layouts shown on the web site will have trouble cooling a lawn mower. There was a LA based company trying to do this same layout for the Lancair IV, (Engine Air I believe) they had only 2 flying examples, and the best one eventually converted back to a Continental! Not a glowing endorsement. Ignore this package until they invest THEIR money in a flying example. All discussion on the site is anectodal, (ie nothing flying or tested) it is impossible to tell on the web site if they have even 1 operating example. Ask some flyer you know about the Zoche Diesel. They even have running examples of their vaporware. They have been "nearly ready" for about 15 years. If you are not capable of engineering the package yourself the Conti or Lyc will have you in the air ages sooner for a price.
Bill Jepson
Rotary10-RV

Ls1
 

Thanks for the push. I, as well as others, will take on board your timely comments. I'm not taking this engine decision lightly and right now all options are on the table. As you point out, it's difficult to determine from a distance which are REAL options. I hope others will voice their concerns and lets get the real issues out in front of other RV-10 builders. Regards,

Bill Gipson
RV-10
wings

LS1 package
 

Bill G,
Glad to offer the $0.02. So you will know I like alternate engines. I am planning to run a Rotary (wankel) Mazda. I have been communicating with a firm that is certifying a turbo-2 rotor. (WWW.mistralengines.com) I will use their PSRU which is purpose built for the Rotary. I plan to use a 3 rotor Mazda sold in Japan but not used in US cars. The LS1 shows a lot of promise as well. I am a mechanical engineer and plan to design a lot of the FWF package myself. If you are looking for someone to provide the package, you should also check Team 38. They have a nice PSRU. They will only do iron blocks themselves though. I think the LS1 bottom end is actually better than the iron block. (LS6?) Good luck.
Bill Jepson

RE: LS1 vs. Mistral - Liquid Cooling
 

Bill Jepson,

I am curious about the cooling of the Mistral. I had a look at their website and I didn't see a whole lot of radiator. There was one on the side that was visible but it doesn't seem to meet the 2-3 cu.in. rule of thumb that you mentioned earlier.
I have been looking at many of the alternative engines out there with the express intention of placing a liquid cooled engine in my RV-10. Like you, I love the idea of the lower costs involved in the LS1 option. Lower fuel prices (Pump gas) and lower overhaul costs are a big incentive. Not to mention comfortable winter flying. There is a huge body of test data available that proves the reliability of the LS1 so I don't think that the engine alone is the stumbling block. I'm again with you on that. The cooling (In cowl) has to be the thing that is proven to me. I have heard many stories where cooling was the issue.
I will have to see an engine performing (in cowl) before I lay any money down but I have no doubt that we are starting to reach a critical mass in the number of people trying to solve the problems with these engines. They are just too good of a basis for a FWF system.
I am going to be talking with Jason Day Vesta. I think that the website talk sounds credible as a starting point. I will have to do a lot more digging before my mind is made up. He has a lot of competition.

Dave Hertner

Mistral cooling/ LS1 cooling
 

Hi Dave,
Your skepticism is well placed on the radiator issue. Mistral does 2 things. First: They use a very thick rather box shaped radiator placed on the right side of the cowl. The rotary is a VERY SMALL package. The engine itself is only about 12-13 inches wide and 14 inches tall. This small size, and the fact that the intake and exhaust of the engine as used in the plane are both on the left side, allows them to put several heat exchangers on the right. (Oil coolers are vital for rotarys.) Second:They stack the coolers on the right. The intercooler is even there near the top of the cowl breathing down like a car. Lastly they are producing "only" 230 HP (their design target) lessening the cooling demand a little. BTW Their engine is installed in a Piper Arrow and is flying right now! They have worked out several minor bugs already and things look really good for them right now.
The problem with the LS1 is exhaust on both sides and a fairly cowl filling profile. This means that you have to use the "blow out the sides" technique with the radiators passing air through some gills or something. One of the things radiators like is a clear appoach and exit path. (The exit is actually more important) The packing in of the rads like shown on Vestas site makes good ducting nearly impossible. Please understand I'm not against them, and really hope their arrangement is successful. There are just some known problems that have killed very similar looking design layouts in the past. The LS1 should be the best bet for V8 conversion with its large weight advantage over other V8's. Check out Algie Composite Aircraft for a nice LS1 package. David Algie is a lead fabricator for the Team Green indy car team and really understands packaging, plus the carbon fiber work is awesome. Here's hoping.
Bill Jepson
rotary10-RV

Vesta Firewall Forward
 

Hello Bill Jepson;

You are right. You need over 600 cu.in. for the LS1. The Vesta radiators are 800 cubic inches. Those words you use, "impossible" and "total BS", are very impressive. You must believe you are quite an authority. However, I don't believe you can be an accurate judge of the air flow of the Vesta radiator system by the photos on the web site. Nor have you seen a Vesta FWF system in person. I apologize that the photos are out of date and it does not show everything ( I will update). Furthermore, the air flow through the radiator system is smooth and plentiful. Cooling is stable on the ground test so far (in several different cowlings). We are actually thinking about reducing the radiators a bit (too much cooling). Flight tests are planned for this summer in the Lancair IVP and Murphy Moose by a couple of builders using Vesta component. So far, my customers have been the type that have not required me to do flight testing for them. They look at me as their machine shop and usually have had plans do build their own LS1 systems before they met me. For other customers we are building FWF systems, propellers, and components for the Express, Velocity, RV-7, Four Winds, Pawnee(crop duster), several Mustang kits, and other special aircraft. We have nearly 12 months of backlog. I invite you to come to Sun & Fun, Oshkosh, or New Jersey to see the radiator and other systems in person.

Jason Day

You are right. You need over 600 cu.in. for the LS1. The Vesta radiators are 800 cubic inches. Those words you use, "impossible" and "total BS", are very impressive. You must believe you are quite an authority. However, I don't believe you can be an accurate judge of the air flow of the Vesta radiator system by the photos on the web site. Nor have you seen a Vesta FWF system in person. I apologize that the photos are out of date and it does not show everything ( I will update). Furthermore, the air flow through the radiator system is smooth and plentiful. <snip>

Jason, Believe it or not I am on your side. I would love to see photos of the duct work. Engine Air used stacked radiators, lower, exiting the cowl normally and side exiting "gill" style. They had a terrible cooling problem in climb, but worked ok in cruise. The Hi-VO is certainly capable of managing the HP when properly laid out. Be careful of harmonics. The site photos may be my stumbling block as they don't show any ducting at all. Here's hoping you have found the proper combination. (I know it isn't impossible! But the airflow MUST be carefully managed.) I have built homebuilts back to the BD-5 and racing cars and motorcycles for about 20 years. I work as a mechanical engineer, so yes I DO have considerable experience in radiator layouts. The motorcycles can be tough to cool with the close fairings, just like an aircraft.
I have seen too many people burned by buying an unproven system just because it looks cool. (I worked on BD-5's remember) The BD had the trifecta, crappy engine, with terrible cooling, and horrible driveline harmonics. Due to the number of installations I have seen that have problems I am skeptical when any V8 based package hits the market that claims to fit in the cowl, cool well, and be a bolt-up FWF. With those cautions, please understand I like the LS-1 and I look forward to seeing a good package. I actually hope you CAN prove me wrong and get the system working. I will be first in line to congratulate you. Post your First Flight data.
Bill Jepson