Suzuki V6 "Mini Merlin" for an RV?
 

Listers...

I'm inclined toward an liquid cooled alternative engine for my RV-9A (tailkit arrived in May). I'm looking for 170 - 180 hp. I've watched this conversion engine scene for about 7 years now. To wit...

Subaru:

1. Jan Egg seems to have abandoned the RV-9[A] due to the excessive weight of his E6 installations (he says otherwise, of course, but I am not about to build an RV-9A with a 1250 lb empty weight) and I have mixed feelings about his front-mounted radiator cooling paradigm, among other things. The only flyers who get true RV performance out of Egg installations are Jan himself and his west-coast associate Robert Paisley. The supercharged 2.5L did surprisingly well in the RVator flyoff but is no longer available. Everybody who pays gets an engine...eventually. I will keep watching developments with Egg. I think the ideal Subaru for an RV-9A would be a gently turbo'd EJ2.2 or 2.5. Jan doesn't offer this. 'Nuff said. http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/.

2. NSI has died. They had pretty engines. Really. You could just never actually get one, even if you paid for it. A few were actually delivered for RV's. Tom Welch, you still out there flying your NSI RV-9? Rupert Clarke in Australia?

3. Maxwell Propulsion Systems, Inc http://www.maxwellpropulsion.com/ has taken over the carcass of NSI. They seem very quiet two years on. Anything going on?

4. Crossflow seems to have burned their bridges with the RV community. http://www.crossflow.com/.

Mazda/Wankel/Rotary:

5. The rotary installations have yet to mature, although I am watching closely. At this point they remain mechanically "over my head" due to the lack of a proven firewall forward installation. Tracy Crook soldiers on impressively. http://rotaryaviation.com/. Dave Atkins too. http://www.americanrotaryengine.com/id5.html. I'll be watching the Propelled Engineering website http://www.propelledengineering.com/ closely to see what they come up with. Their planned price of $28K seems ridiculous. I'll be watching Mistral too http://www.mistral-engines.com/ but they will likely cost too much. PowerSport seems dead, with no web site updates in over two years. http://www.powersportaviation.com/. For now the rotary installations seem best left to genuine gear heads.

Chevy:

6. The Belted Air Power Chevy Vortec V6 installation intrigues me, although it is too heavy and Jess Meyers resists the use of the lighter aluminum head option (the CG has been engineered for the heavier, cheaper, cast-iron heads). Their web site is almost never updated http://www.beltedair.com/ and I have found zero BAP flyers active on the web. Last summer Jess was active here, but nothing lately. BAP has been around the RV world for well over ten years now. There should be dozens of happy flyers spreading the news but one never hears from them if they exist. I'd love to see/hear more on this package. I'll be watching.

Diesel/JetA/Kerosene:

7. The Deltahawk may come of age by Y3K. http://www.deltahawkengines.com/.

8. The Theilert seems complex/troublesome and is unavailable anyway. http://www.centurion-engines.com/.

9. The WAM-160 is a pipe dream. Mark Wilksch left the company. The WAM-120 will not meet my hp needs. http://www.wilksch.com/.

Miscellaneous:

10. The Jabiru 5100 is apparently dead. Air cooled anyway, but smooooooth. http://www.usjabiru.com/jabiru_5100.htm.

11. ATP/Innodyne is all talk and two prototypes. I doubt this will ever come to fruition. http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/index_aviation.html.

12. Verner Scarlett 190 hp Radials? Too way out there for me. http://www.flydiver.com/HTML/RadialSpecs.htm.

So...I'd like to dredge up some comments on the Suzuki V6 as an option for an RV. Apparently these (2.5L or 2.7L) engines are gaining some traction with the Titan T-51 crowd. This was pioneered by Dan Hawken in Alberta beginning about three years ago. The Titan factory has actually begun to support the installation. A few are now flying. The 2.7L installation is supposed to be derated to about 175 hp in the aircraft installation. Installed weight is in the low 300's. This would be perfect for an RV, it would seem. I have found no clear, single source of technical information on the package. Mr. Hawken himself is not on the web. I snooped around the Yahoo T-51 list and noticed...surprise...Ross is there and knowledgeable.

Whadyathink of this for an RV, Ross? Is the shape too deep and skinny to fit well on a side-by-side RV firewall? What sort of PSRU is being used? Could it be installed without a P-51-style radiator scoop? Any hints as to the durability of the peripherals? Anyone know of a web link with a summary?

I watched/listened to a few "Mini Merlin" videos from the T-51 Yahoo site and the engine sure sounds sweet...

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MN59RlI...ini-Merlin.wmv

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MN59RsC...yby/dennis.wmv

Dan
Chicago
RV-9A Tail Kit

You've compiled a good list there Dan!

I like the Suzuki V-6 idea! Cool videos too! Hadn't seen those before.

If you head towards my direction, I'm just down the road from you...stop by sometime!

Insurance?
 

Dan,

Not trying to flame your ideas, but you might want to call your favorite agent and see if you can insure a plane like you describe. Sadly this is one of the major items to consider these days and the last I heard in order to get insurance with an alternate engine it must be a firewall forward package such as the Eggy. I suggest you call our friendly RV insurance specialist Jim Pappas and pick his brain.

http://www.pappasinsurance.com/

Best,

Brian...

As you know the insurance issue for conversion engines, like primers wars, canopy types, nose wheels, etc has been well hashed out before. The Suzuki V6 installation, properly done, will probably pass that test. Engine lovers have been actively experimenting in the face of this issue for years. I wouldn't let that stop me for a good engine installation.

Dan

Yep, I'm on all the popular engine forums as I like to keep tabs on our ECUs and help anyone out I can.

I know Dan Hawken quite well (just visited him a couple weeks ago) and we supply the ECUs for the Mini Merlin V6. Dan is a very smart fellow with decades of practical mechanical experience. The drive was designed and built by him. It is a belt unit, robust and well flight proven.

Weight wise, the Suzuki will be similar to an EZ30. Power wise, it has less to offer than the EZ30-R now being supplied by Eggenfellner. Probably the 2.7 puts out around 155hp for takeoff at the rpm typically turned. The V6 is very compact and is a really strong and well designed engine- typical modern Japanese engineering.

Dan has offloaded the Mini Merlin design and drawings to Titan last year who I think now has subcontracted machining and assembly to someone else. Last I heard they were tooling up and hope to fill many orders they have for the kit. Dan was selling all the components required except the engine which can be found locally out of the Vitara.

It is a wonderful sounding engine and gives the T51 much better performance than the original 912S albient with about a 150-180 lb. weight penalty. Probably be fine for a -9 but you'd have to design a mount and cooling system. Would fit under the cowling no problem I think. You might have a problem sourcing the engine kit unless Titan has sold you a T51 however!

We're doing some work on a couple of turbo STI engines now. Hope to have a ECU solution to control the variable cams and tumble valves and drive the factory COP ignition. This would be a powerful and lighter weight alternative with more redrive and possibly mount availability. The turbo allows you to make real hp while keeping rpms low for decent fuel flows. I have no plans to offer a FF package as I'm already too deep in projects myself but this is the engine people should be working on for RV7 and RV8s- 300hp and 300 lb./ft. stock. Derate to 200hp and it will last forever.

For the RV9, the latest atmo EJ25 rated at 173hp could do a good job at close to Lycoming weights if the redrive ratio was selected to allow the engine to spin up to 6000 for takeoff (about 2.2 to 1). I'd expect cruise fuel economy with this setup to be at least 10-15% less than an O-320 but auto fuel could offset this in $ perhaps. 4400 would give you about the same cruise power as an O-320 at 75%.


Turn key, Eggenfellner is the only game in town at present.

Your condensed version of "dream" engines is impressive!
:)

STI ECU
 

Ross, I know about 25 guys that would be very interested in this. Many have already closed off the oil for the variable cams, so would your solution still work for them? Also, what does the tumble valve do? The turbo sounds very exciting.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it
 

How about this GM Isuzu V6 installation: http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Engine.htm

V6 used in 90% replica Mk26 Spitfire. (nice real/fake 6 into 12 tube stacks, must sound nice, can you see your RV with 12 pipes sticking out the cowl! cool :eek: )






Large scale pics showing scale
http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/IMG_0178.JPG
http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/P1020266.JPG
http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/P1000071.JPG
http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/I...lete03_000.jpg

PS Nice nice right up on the state of alternative engine companies.

Hi Ross

I know these guys too, in fact I am one of them. Be very interested to learn more.

And so far my STI is unmodified.

Peter

26, dont forget me ;-)

The tumble valves on the STI are secondary butterflies in the lower staock intake manifold designed to impart turbulence and higher mixture velocity at low speeds for better fuel economy. The Eggenfellner intake manifold removes this. Not very important for aircraft use where we generally operate over 4000 rpm most of the time.

The variable cam timing has been locked in the high position on the Egg engines as well, again I don't see a detriment to doing this in this application. If your sprockets are locked out or replaced with fixed sprockets, our control would not be applicable.

We are familiar with what turbo is suitable for the STI however fitment details with various RV cowling and differences in engine mounts between tailwheel and A models makes for a lot of design and fabrication work. Additionally the intercooler placement and ducting would have to be revised along with a more efficient rad setup, probably requiring extensive lower cowling mods. I don't have the time to produce components and can only offer advice on some parts and suppliers should anyone care to undertake this.

As far as other V6 engines are concerned, most aluminum V6s today have suitable power outputs and low enough weights to power 6, 7 and 8 models but be aware that all will be heavier than an O-360 installation and unless they are geared for max prop rpm to occur at power peak rpm, they will probably be inferior in performance (unless turboed). Installation of any of these is possible but be prepared for a lot of work making the mount, cooling system and possible cowling mods.